Anyone else feel that the Fire Nation is going to have a rough time with Zuko as the Fire lord? To begin with, you have a 15 year old (i think thats how old he's supposed to be) as the ruler who from my impression of the series didn't come across as a particularly strong focused chaarcter, and he probably lacks the training in statemanship he would have recieved if he hadn't been banished. I doubt he has much if any real support in the Fire nation. He is a prince who was exiled in shame years ago and was probably pretty much despised by the rest of the Fire nation. He got into power through what was essentially a coup with the support of the fire nations strongest enemies, and now he wants to go against 100 years of indoctrinating the country to believe they were superior to the other nations and try and make peace with the Fire nations enemies. I doubt anyone would have any support for him.The way i see it, The Fire Nation is doomed to a decline after the end of the events of the series. The combination of a weak and upopular ruler, a strong army and navy with no one to fight and a politically powerful, dissatisfied and ambitious noble class would result in the nation dissolving into feuding factions trying to seize power. Zuko, with his generals turning rouge and the Earth kingdoms unlikely to lend him support (they are still rebuilding) or shelter him (the earthbenders are unlikely to have forgiven the fire nation so quickly) would face being disposed very quickly/
He's about 17 by the end of the series. Even though the Fire Nation was sold on war propaganda, I'm sure there are many who will be glad the war is over, like the common/poorer citizens, like the ones in that fishing village.
>>80019Yes, but i'm talking about the nobles, who have the real power. They probably did great out of the war, and Zuko calling an end to war profiteering is unlikely to go down well.
>>80021Judging by the White Lotus Society though, there are at least some nobles placed in important parts of Fire Nation society who will likely be sympathetic to the new Fire Lord.
>>80018He would probably also have advisers to consult any major decision with.
Zuko would definitely have serious problems leading the Fire Nation for the first years of his reign, and I can see the future you describe coming to pass, but there would be avenues for stability. The Earth Kingdom is rebuilding, yeah, but they would also heartily support this new direction for the FN and I see them lending military support to Zuko to tamp down rebellions, coups, assasination attempts, etc. The Water Tribes would also be pretty much entirely on his side too, especially given that he's now all pally with the Gaang who they have nothing but good experiences with ("hi, I'm Aang, I saved you guys from lunar destruction and I'm with this dude so you should know he's good people.") Moreover, I can see Zuko turning the FN's newfound openness with the world into serious opportunities for trade and economic growth, and there's nothing like a booming economy to keep a nation happy. With the military might of the EK, the WT, and the Avatar behind him, Zuko could keep the ruling class from killing and him, and hopefully persuade them into finding wealth and status in this new world--opening up shipping firms in the EK, perhaps. And maybe a sort of volunteer corps could open up in the EK and the WT, of people who go to the FN and describe what *their* lives have been under the war, to ease back the propaganda of the last century.Or it could all fall apart, I dunno. But I don't see that as a definite outcome, necessarily, though it would certainly be hard and if there were someone around to poll, I'm sure Zuko's approval ratings would be in the toilet for quite a while.
Sounds like ripe territory for a fic.Also, Iroh probably has a lot of the statesman education covered from the 3 years they spent sailing around. You don't think they ONLY did firebending training that whole time, do you? A prince still needs a prince's "first-rate eddication!" He would also certainly be completely there to support Zuko.
>>80018I disagree with most of your assessment. To begin with, I don't think his young age and inexperience weighs too heavily against him. Youth, in itself, is not a negative quality, but rather, it is the attendant immaturity and focus on inconsequential matters that represents a problem. I mean, if I had been the autocratic leader of a powerful nation at age 17, you can bet my first decree would be "BRING ME THE HOT BITCHES." (Come to think of it, that probably would have been the case well into my twenties, supplemented by "and a box of your finest cactus juice," but I digress...) It's perhaps best illustrated in season 3, episode 5 'The Beach' both that Zuko has no real interest in normal teenage pastimes, and that he is unusually mature for a boy of his age. However, this episode also does a good job of illustrating one of his immature traits: ill-temper. Zuko is an angry, angry young man, but it is part of his character arc, and explicitly shown in-series that he has let go of this anger. Which brings us neatly to our next point: you state that Zuko is not "a particularly strong focused chaarcter[sic.]," but I would argue otherwise. Indeed, throughout seasons one and two, Zuko shows such an intense focus on capturing the Avatar that he overcomes incredible obstacles to keep his hope of doing so alive. We are shown in season three, episode 11 'The Western Air Temple' that shortly after his Agni Kai with Ozai, he is already doggedly scouring the land for any sign of the Avatar, even before the grievous wound delivered to him by his own father had a chance to heal. Read the last portion of that sentence again: even before the grievous wound delivered to him by his own father had a chance to heal. Most 13 year-old boys (the age he was when Ozai burned him) would spend the next few weeks cowering in a ball in the corner if this happened to them. Most would never recover to the point where they could function more-or-less normally again. If anything, Zuko is an exceptionally strong and focused character.The matter of lacking the training in statesmanship would certainly represent the greater part of any personal failings Zuko might bring to the job of Fire Lord. Certainly, we are never shown that he displays any understanding of diplomacy or military strategy (as opposed to military tactics, where he seems to have a pretty good grasp). However, he would certainly be able to call upon some very knowledgeable and trustworthy advisers in this regard. Iroh, obviously. Perhaps other White Lotus members. His future father-in-law seems to be a politically savvy person. From what we see in-series, Zuko doesn't seem like he'd be completely lost at a royal court, the same way Aang and Sokka are shown to be in the Earth Kingdom court, but out of all your points, it is to this that I can find least objection.Your doubt that he would have "much if any real support in the Fire nation" is harder to address, as we are entering a much more speculative area here. I would argue that a great many people in the Fire Nation, even the power elite, would be glad to see the war over. Wars of this scale are costly and destructive, and no-one ever really profits from them in the long term, and this has been a very long term war. Specifically, you suggest that his generals might go rogue, yet it is with his generals that Zuko will be most popular: he ended the war! The only soldiers who wish to continue a hundred-year-old year are Byronic Heroes, and the Law of Conservation of Narrative Detail strongly suggests that there will only be one (or at most two) of these. Also, we know the universe of AtLA possesses spirit beings of at least a quasi-religious nature. Almost certainly, any religious or epireligious establishment in the Fire Nation would thus acknowledge Zuko's accession as a good thing, because this is a work of fantasy and he is one of the heroes. At the very least, many people are likely to be impressed by the deeper understand of firebending he displays. Some might support him simply because he enjoys the support of the Avatar. In >>80021 you say that "i'm talking about the nobles, who have the real power." But the reigns of power are exceedingly short, especially in a world where anyone you meet might be a Sparky Kung Fu Wizard.Well, that got spectacularly long-winded, didn't it?
>>80081>shortly after his Agni Kai with Ozai, he is already doggedly scouring the land for any sign of the Avatar, even before the grievous wound delivered to him by his own father had a chance to heal. Read the last portion of that sentence again: even before the grievous wound delivered to him by his own father had a chance to heal.Zuko is hardcore. That scene both impressed me and made me feel sorry for him. Another reason why he's one of my favorite characters. His father decided to blast fire directly into his face when he was just a year older than Aang, scarring and banishing him merely for talking out of turn and refusing to fight back. And through it all, Zuko still sought his love and acceptance until he finally woke up and realized it was never going to happen.>His future father-in-law seems to be a politically savvy person.Since Zuko's dad was such an abusive jerk, it would be awesome if he became BFF with Mai's dad. That could be some nice fanfic material right there.
Zuko is a seventeen year old with emotional problems, however he at this point _knows_ this and will seek trustworthy advisors. Obviously he will start off with his uncle's reccomendations (Pindao has a new job as Royal Personal Trainer, bet on it), but between them and the girlfriend that just happens to have been hanging around court while he was out at sea he can start filtering through the old courtiers that were out of favor.In terms of domestic support, getting the commons and the middle classes onside along with anyone willing to start developing commercial goods for export should be enough to counter the nobility that bought into Ozai's lunacy and any over-ambitious generals. The whole possibility of returning colonists is a bigger worry, but I think the older settlements could be retained at the treaty table.The FN military and diehard upper nobles who are hardcore enough to want to continue the war? The fate of Ozai and the fact that Zuko is on the Avatar's good side is the sort of thing that will paralyze them with fear for some time. Enough at least to establish reliable forces loyal to Zuko.
>>80081I thought Iroh wanted to stay in Ba Sing Se and run his teahouse? He might return to the Fire Nation if things got bad, but still.More importantly, People do profit from War. The industrialists manufacture the weapons, there are always mercenaries looking for loot and the Generals can gain alot of influence and prestige at home when they succeed in war overseas. It a cliche that 'war hurts everyone'. Also the fact the first thing Zuko did when he came to power is too look for his mother, a rather trivial personal matter in the grand scheme of things when the entire nation is about to start the long process of dismantling a total war economy.
>> 80081>Specifically, you suggest that his generals might go rogue, yet it is with his generals that Zuko will be >most popular: he ended the war! The only soldiers who wish to continue a hundred-year-old year are >Byronic Heroes, and the Law of Conservation of Narrative Detail strongly suggests that there will only >be one (or at most two) of these. I really have to disagree with this one. These generals aren’t some sort of “father to their men” type. Sacrificing divisions was considered perfectly acceptable tactics. And Zuko ended the war without a Fire Nation victory. Think about how hard core the Japanese generals of WWII were about not surrendering. And that was when it was clear they were losing. A situation like this? Yeah they are not going to be happy campers. The end of the war means they no longer have the same level of prestige or power. Hell the fact that they’re told that their entire career was a –bad- thing. Some might be pragmatic enough to realize that Aang was powerful enough stopping the war now was the sensible thing, but I doubt any are going to be happy.Don’t get me wrong. There are plenty of people who Zuko could make allies with. Some who might even be natural allies. The generals aren’t one of them.
>>80108> Also the fact the first thing Zuko did when he came to power is too look for his mother, a rather trivial personal matter in the grand scheme of things when the entire nation is about to start the long process of dismantling a total war economy.I don't follow.And modern industrialists profit from short, limited scale wars. No one profits from a century long, continental scale war (or series of wars, see: decline and fall of the Roman Empire).>>80118You make a good point. I'm rather ashamed that I didn't account for the fact that some, if not all, Fire Nation generals would be all about the HONOR!!! On the other hand, the might also be seriously into the obeying the orders given to them by the holy and infallible Fire Lord. So under the conditions you propose, I would expect that some generals might fall on Zuko's side simply out of a sense of duty.I must point out, however, that in writing the paragraph you quote, that I never envisioned any of the generals being the 'A Father to His Men' type, but simply tired of fighting, and looking forward to being able to go home. Although now I think about it, we see a number of potential Fathers to Their Men in the Fire Nation: Iroh, Jiong Jiong, and possibly Piandao. What I was getting at is that there will be at most one or two generals who wish to continue the war not for spoil or glory or honor, but simply because they wish to keep fighting.
>>80118We have no proof that all the generals were all like Zhao; willing to die instead of admitting their faults.
>>80130Point, but all of the “father's to their men” were also the ones who rebelled. The loyal generals (names flashback guy, Zhao, and arguable Azula/Ozai, depending on if you want to count them) defiantly weren't. That implies to me that anyone to friendly to their men would not have gotten far in Ozai’s court. Though there might be some generals who were encourage to retire early for being too soft that Zuko can look up. And I’m not so sure about the go home part either. First a lot of the top generals seem to hand around at the palace of the Fire Lord. So they’re probably able to visit home any time the like. Secondly, going home in victory, sure? Going home in disgrace? An artifact of an evil war?Some could be his allies. And the middle and lower class of solders. Who are getting sent out on long mission with a high risk of death could be his allies(though you might have to get over hatred from years of fighting and seeing earthbenders kill their buddies)>>80132They don’t have to be willing to die, just willing to make trouble for Zuko and chaft under his rule. Sure he can have them executed, but executing all the former generals of the Fire Nation is probably going to put a crimp on the “We haven’t surrendered just seen the right way of doing things/ I’m a nice Fire Lord” vibe.
>>80138I like your continued analysis. It shows real thought and understanding. I also feel we're reaching toward some kind of consensus here, which might be a good basis for fics. Your post actually makes me think of the situation in the late Ottoman Empire, or Japan around the Meiji restoration. I could certainly see a general of the type you describe attempting to set himself up as a shogun of sorts in some part of the Fire Nation (or perhaps the colonies), far from the Royal Capital City, perhaps even suborning de facto control of the Fire Nation for a brief time, before Zuko's rule is restored by something akin to the Young Turks (restoration as a constitutional monarchy) or Satchō Alliance (restoration as an absolute monarch).