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 Posting a reply to post #65718

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65718 No.65718
Ozai: great villain, or lame one?

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I mean...What did he really do?

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Hot one. It's the only thing I care about.

He was all cool and mysterious, but he had nothing on Azula's "holy god everyone is going to die this bitch is fucking crazy-awesome" factor.

Also this. Mmmm, Ozai.


It's true. In the finale he stripped of all his clothes in like, 5 seconds.

Fuck yeah Ozai.

Under-developed. You have to do alot of extrapolation to say anything meaningful about his character; he winds up being more a generic end boss than anything.

Lets see.

He was a goddamn bastard. A hot one at that. Which I liked.

If anything, he was underdeveloped.

For the record, though: The fact that he gave himself the title of Pheonix King is something that in my mind is genius on so many levels. He's breaking with tradition to give himself more power, a classic evil-dictator move; and the title itself is meaningful, incredibly appropriate to the fire nation, and just plain sounds cool.

I think you can get a pretty solid idea of his character by looking at how his kids relate to him, something which the show explores in some depth.

Again, extrapolation. The general assumptions about how he treated both his children are educated guesses, we've only got a handful of moments where he directly interacts with either of them.

And they back it up, it's not like additional detail was need to get the gist of it.
Not everything needs to be spoonfed to the audiance in minute detail.

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I hate it when people bitch about the DIAF solution.

Motherfucker was going to pull a Scorched Earth on a grand scale.


4thed on Delicious Ozai is delicious. Where's more decent fanart, fandom. D:

He was so underdeveloped I assumed Azula was going to overthrow him during the Day of Black Sun and Aang would have to fight her in the finale. I still kind of wish that had happened, honestly.


Pff, if you didn't realize she would never do anything against her father by season 3, you were delusional.

you would be in the minority I think


Seconded. It would've made for a nice twist.


No, a lot of people speculated about it on various forums. Where in Season 2 was it "made clear" that she wouldn't stage a coup against Daddy Ozai? After DOBS, any opportunity to overthrow Ozai was pretty much nil, so it was more or less evident that it wasn't going to happen after the eclipse. But before the episode aired? It was a big theory. Many people thought Azula would kill Ozai when his Firebending was diminished; the most popular idea, IIRC, was the utilization of the Dai Li for that very purpose. Azula's loyalty to her father was in question, as she unflinchingly lied to him about Zuko's involvement in Aang's slaying. Betrayal certainly wasn't out of the question at the time, considering what we knew.

I find it ironic that the guy who played one of the most famous heroes in film history ends up voice-acting villains most of the time.


He's definitely not bad at it...

Man that would have been lame as hell.

Oh, he's definitely one of the best. I just find it ironic that LUKE SKYWALKER of all people is also a brutal dictator and the Clown Prince of Crime.

I'm of the "Azula is the brains of the outfit" school of thought, but Ozai was definitely no slouch in the villain department. I mean, Darwinism is as evil as you can get, jeez.

Still, I had a hard time taking him seriously in that phoenix king armor and was glad he took it off for the final battle.

Azula wasn't the brains of the outfit she was daddy's little girl who was utterly at his command

Ozai was an adequate villain. He doesn't really stand out as either a lame or awesome villain, but he worked.

Negatives: flat character, doesn't get much screen time, has a stupid helmet, and we don't get to see him really succeed outside of a couple flashbacks

Positives: is sexy, voiced by Mark Hamill, is a complete bastard, the faceless stuff in the first two seasons kept an air of mystery, was shirtless for the final battle


Ozai made the big decisions, but Azula was, or at least appeared to be, more clever and more subtle.

Ozai was a disappointing villain because throughout the first and second season, we only ever saw him from the perspective of Zuko. So you are kind of expecting Darth Vader, but when he finally shows up in person, he's just a guy.

I didn't expect him to be the handsome fella revealed in the third season, but it got worse in the brazilian dub. In the first 2 seasons he got that deep, menacing Darth Vader-style voice, and then we got Book 3 and a new voice actor, younger and boring.

I think Ozai was ok in the Book 3, but the overexpostion took away his menacing aura. In the first seasons he was the guy able to burn his own son and betray his own brother, in the last season he was the Boogeyman haunting Aang's anime wet dreams. Not fair!

Well, at least we got lots of cool fanart and the depictions of hot, steamy Ursai and Ozula... :D

>Well, at least we got lots of cool fanart and the depictions of hot, steamy Ursai and Ozula... :D

Might as well include the whole family and add Zukozai and Ozairoh to the mix.


Eeeew! :D



Let's be fair here! If one of his kin is being considered, the whole family should get in on the Ozai goodness.


I guess I'm thinking of the TVTropes article that said Ozai was the "set fire to the chessboard and laugh" guy and Azula the chessmaster who made the complicated plans.


Agreed, although it must be noted that the whole Scorched Earth idea originated with Azula. Ozai took the concept and ran with it. So maybe Azula's unapologetic villainy shouldn't be downplayed so much. She was more of a chessmaster than a "burn everything in sight" fanatic, but she still advocated violent genocide and wanted to take part in said genocide with Daddy Ozai.

>Agreed, although it must be noted that the whole Scorched Earth idea originated with Azula


In the first episode of the 4 part finale. During Zuko's flashback to the war meeting (when he's telling the Gaang about the plan)

Zuko: The people of the Earth Kingdom are proud and strong. They can endure anything as long as they have hope.
Ozai: Yes, you're right. (pause) We need to destroy their hope.
Zuko: Well, that's not exactly what I--
Azula: I think you should take their precious hope, and the rest of their land, and burn it all to the ground.
Ozai: Yes. Yes, you're right, Azula. Sozin's Comet is almost upon us, and on that day it will endow us with the strength and power of 100 suns. No bender will stand a chance against us.

I've seen some Irozai and there's like two fic of Ozako.

One is horrible, one is really... really... sexy.


Urzai stuff? There's MORE than the stuff I write? :o


I'm refering to more fanarts... Booter-Freak released some good Ozai strips, serious and comical, and Sitnalta made some Ozula and even a Hakozai. :D you the author of that fic where Ozai "welcomes" Ursa back right after the Day of The Black Sun?

Oh, no. I wrote this;

But I have read the one you're talking about, because I am a Urzai fan. My headcanon Ursa would STAB Ozai, bender or not, any time after she meets with him after Zuko's post-burning.

I have seen worse (he had the abusive and power hungry nutbar thing down pat), but I freely admit fleshing out the guy a bit would not have hurt.
Agreed. I would go farther and say that Azula's absolute loyalty to Ozai is the main reason he is still alive (especially after the Day of Black Sun, but a discreet knife in the back followed by a frameup was well within her ability to begin with).
> My headcanon Ursa would STAB Ozai, bender or not, any time after she meets with him after Zuko's post-burning.

Quoted. For. Truth. Frankly the "romantic reunion" vision of thier future relationship disturbs me on multiple levels.

Yes, I see Zuko forced to give his mother an akward lecture while she gets her hands and feet patched up after her first visit to Ozai.

He reminds me of a lame version of Lord Genome. I'm not sure what makes Genome awesome and Ozai a faggot. They're both basically just generic psycho-thugs in a position of physical and political power though Genome does get some development after his death Ozai is just missing something that that kind of villain needs. It's probably that his daughter already fulfilled the unstoppable insane badass role so when Ozai tried to do the same thing it just seemed redundant and stupid.

>Azula wasn't the brains of the outfit

haha what

She really didn't do anything that Chessmastery.

"Oh ho! You suck! You suck so hard your momma feels it, Long Feng. I run this rat race now! *Evil smile.*"

"... even though I have all my men with me, and you haven't even displayed your bending prowess, and even if we captured you for ransom making Day of Black Sun counter attack dubious at best, and the Dai Li can retake the Kingdom, I GIVE UP. I SUCK."

We're TOLD she's the mastermind and the lesser bad guys fall, but it feels so fucking hollow.

How about saying that it was Zuko who killed the Avatar? That was really a tactical masterstroke in several ways.



Driving Zuko crazy with doubt? We saw how that worked.

AZULA was the one who told Ozai that Zuko killed the Avatar. No matter how big of a failure Zuko was, Azula exposed herself as disloyal to her father despite being so favored. Really, Zuko telling Ozai might have saved Azula from one of Ozai's Temper tantrums. Though the more passive aggressive treatment towards the end of the series helped do her in.


Damn, this was an old thread.

Anyway, Azula was favored but she was second-born, and a girl. The throne was still Zuko's birthright, it would go to him first. Didn't you catch her line that if the Avatar was alive, all Zuko's glory and acceptance would up and vanish? It was her way of keeping Zuko under her thumb, while letting him get a taste of the good life of Ozai's approval.

Also, to respond to the old post at >>65927, Azula was secretly running the Dai Li while Long Feng sat around in prison, it was during that time that the Dai Li got to know Azula. At the same time, remember that being in the Dai Li is apparently a cushy spot often held by old money families. Long Feng had to claw his way up, he's a self-made man, and pretty often, new money is ridiculed or disrespected by old money. It was a small divide, to be sure, but when faced with Azula, somebody who had a lot of Long Feng's qualities, but born into high status like themselves, they connected more with her.

I'll admit, it's a little hard to swallow, but she *does* have superpowers, too. It's not just some "Oh, I win now, sucker" thing.

>and a girl
You're right about everything else, but Azula being female had nothing to do with her not being in line for the throne. Members of the Fire Nation are equal opportunity warmongers.

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Oh look, an opportunity to post this.

Zuko had *lost* his birth right at the end of S1. He and Iroh were branded as traitors. Even if the Avatar was alive, Azula was posed to become the favored heir. Azula was supposed to capture ZUKO and IROH. If she betrayed her promise to Zuko at the end of S2, Zuko would be in jail rotting and she would become Ozai's heir. A complicated double crossing is NOT a sign of intelligence but of ego.

It's never stated what social classes the Dai Li come from. It's assumed they're elite Earthbenders/soldiers and nothing more. It's a good theory, but as it stands, canon doesn't support it.

Really, the later half of S2 is rather disappointing.

Anything that Azula did that was apparently amazing was off screen such as her WHOLE fight with Suki. Or it was handwaved such as her 'show down' with Long Feng. Hell, come to think of it, Azula never *fought* in a proper duel with an adult bending Master. (Wounding Iroh was a smart move, but this was early on S2. A GOOD example of 'SHOWING' of Azula's cunning.)

The writers did a lot of 'telling' and I understand why, not enough time to show it all. But 'telling' me Azula is amazing feels cheap and I'm surprised I'm in a minority.

tl;dr - I read too much in a kid's show villain.

>I'll admit, it's a little hard to swallow, but she *does* have superpowers, too. It's not just some "Oh, I win now, sucker" thing.

Plus she's hot, so that didn't hurt her chances at taking over a group consisting entirely of males either.

Dai Li #24: (whispering)Sooo, do we stay with Feng or go with the Princess?

Dai Li #23: Alright, I know this is going to sound crazy, but hear me out. If we go with the Princes, there's the ever so slight chance that one of us might get to hit that.

Dai Li #24: I don't know... We've been loyal to Long Feng for...

DL #23: Oh come on! I mean, look at her. Fourteen my ass!?


Azula needed Zuko in the fight against Aang, otherwise he and Katara could have put up a united offense before any Dai Li backup arrived. Azula herself mentions the whole issue of the Dai Li agents' social status during her spiel to Long Feng, so I'm not just spouting theories. Not sure why she didn't just toss Zuko in prison immediately afterward, maybe something to keep Iroh down. At the same time, she did put up the effort to make sure Zuko came with them, maybe it was still Ozai's choice of who would succeed him and having Zuko's neck under her boot would be an advantage.

Regardless, plenty of people never went toe to toe against an adult bending master either. Sokka, Toph, Suki, none of them took one on in a serious "this is my enemy" sense, and I don't see why that really matters. The people Azula usually did fight was pretty much limited to her primary targets, Zuko and the Gaang, which was a lineup of prodigy benders and badass normals.


Why not toss Zuko in jail? Two reasons:

First, although it is lesser. There is no body, and if Ozai blows his stack over it then Zuko takes the fall (although leveling with him about the whole pet-waterbender-got-away-with-the-body-before-I-could-take-a-pulse bit would work almost at well in the long run).

More importantly, I get the impression she likes using the guy as a chew toy. Even if he were the formal hier she can play him like a fiddle or remove him at will.

>Even if he were the formal hier she can play him like a fiddle or remove him at will.
I get the feeling that if Zuko were given the throne before the finale, Azula would either find some way to take it from him or play shadowy-person-who's-the-REAL-power-behind-the-throne like Long Feng.

Hot villain. I'd hit that.

Invalid comparison.

Genome is all about sci-fi bushido, and a head in a jar who was technically immortal, so he needed no succesor and could throw away his clonic loli daughters at will. Sure, that's awesome but it has no point of comparison in the ATLA universe.

Ozai is, you know, a human character.

Ozai kind of reminds me of Gendo.

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I was going to make a joke regarding fire-breathing pandas, but then I realized I was thinking of Genma, not Gendo.

Actually, all three (Ozai, Genma, and Gendo) could probably form a "We are the Worst Fathers Ever" club all by themselves.


There must be some room in there for Darth Vader.

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It's like I'm really on 4chan!

God IS fiction's worst father ever:
I got it, I'll born as human, be my own father, then kill my son (myself) in some sort of gory self-human-sacrifice and blame it on humans!



Isn't it what the Bible is about?
Some heavenly divinity, spreading plagues and destruction upon his kids, threatening them either with total obliteration or eternal suffering... and suddenly this god incarnates himself in human form, by impregnating a teenage virgin without her consent, doing some magic tricks to impress his friends like walking on water but fixing nothing at all, getting himself killed down the road, and then blaming it on humans, his children, so he can still demand them to hold to ridiculous beliefs by keeping them coerced.
Just as planned.

Like I said, God's worst father in fiction ever.

Too good the Bible is just a work of fiction.


I just never was of the school of thought that Jesus=God.

>fixing nothing at all
Except, you know, healing some people and allowing souls to go to heaven.

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Just a reminder. This thread is about Ozai, not a fucking religious debate. Take that shit to /baw/ if you want, but this isn't the place for it.

>>allowing souls to go to heaven.
he could have done it without the whole "kill my son, eat his flesh, drink his blood, else go to hell" mumbo jumbo, y'know... but no, he had to take the freaky weirdo way about the heaven issue.

Now, back to Ozai, he may be some tyrant wanting to take over the world by burning half of it in the process in a homage to Sozin's genocide... but at least he didn't torture and nail nubile Azula and ephebic Zuko half naked to a post and demanded Fire Nation citizens to commit symbolical cannibalism as a requirement to live in his Utopian Phoenix Kingdom where everyone gets to wear ridiculous shoulderpads and helmets. Though it isn't like some people wouldn't get boners from thinking about such thing.
So I say, Ozai isn't really such a bad guy, he's just misunderstood, or out of "historical context". But what he's really bad at, that'd be making long-term plans.

>he may be some tyrant wanting to take over the world by burning half of it in the process in a homage to Sozin's genocide
>Ozai isn't really such a bad guy, he's just misunderstood, or out of "historical context"

Come to think of it, what was Ozai's genius short-term plan suppposed to be, anyway? Was that fleet going to split up to torch everything eventually, because there's no way in hell he'd have been able to cover *all* of the Earth Kingdom in one night. Was he planning on torching just the rebellious areas, or hoping for the shock and awe to crush the hope of the rebellions? Because he kept talking as if he was planning on torching the entire continent, usable land and all.

Ozai never really struck me as a "details" guy.

He just says he wants shit burned, shit gets burned.

Well, I sort of skimmed a bit, so I hope this hasn't been said, but I think Ozai is a bit lame as a character, but perhaps not as a villan. It's true he's a little underdeveloped, but I also feel like his power is second-hand. Sozin sort of started the war to try and bring peace and prosperity to the rest of the nations (granted, by ruling over them, but still). After he died, Azulon took over and Sozen's vision was lost. It was just a lust for power and domination. Ozai is probably the most poisoned with power of the fire lords we know. He just want to dominate the world because it's within his grasp.

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Ozai was decent as far as villains go, but he could've used more screentime and/or flashbacks.

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In the artbook Bryan says Long Feng turned out to be a much more interesting villain than Ozai, or something like that.

I'm sort of inclined to agree with them. Maybe it's because the Gaang interacted with him more, maybe it was his more subtle, sinister approach to being a villain, maybe it was actually killing someone on-screen. Ozai may be the Big Bad, but I think Long Feng scores more points overall.


These right here. As an antagonist/villain he's alright, but as a character, he's just a bit one dimensional. What's the driving force behind him? World domination, yes, but why did he care for it so badly? World domination for world domination's sake is cliche and weak story telling. Did he want the world because he thought he could make it a better place like his grandfather did? Did he want the world because he thought it would improve the quality of his nation and people? Did he want the world because he thought waging war was an easy way to keep his people employed and obedient? This question is never really answered. Ozai has no known motivation for continuing the war.

And the subject of caring is the biggest flaw of his character. Forget asking about why does he care that he conquers the world. The question should be does he actually care for anything at all, even for selfish reasons? He doesn't care about his troops, his wife, his son, or inevitably his perfect daughter. As characters, Zhao cared about his legacy and rank in the navy, Long Feng cared about his own position and power within Ba Sing Se, and Azula cared about being perfect and making her father proud. These deep rooted motivations are all things the three worked their entire lives to achieve and said motivations demonstrate why they all went to the extremes they did to achieve their goals.

But Ozai? Ozai's position in life was plenty safe without the need to wage war against others. What did he stand to lose if he didn't take the actions he did? Nothing really, and that's why he just falls flat; he just doesn't care about anything.

With the least edits to the show as it is, the easiest way to give Ozai motivation for continuing the war and to show he cared about at least one thing would have been to make his key motivation have something to do with Iroh. Iroh was first born, a general, and off in the world almost conquering Ba Sing Se. Ozai on the other hand was second born, no real job, and just sat around the palace. All you'd have to do to is add a quick flashback scene in season 2 where we see a jealous Ozai confront Iroh over how Iroh is the favorite and chosen son. Showing Ozai with an intense jealousy of all that Iroh had would then make his eventual usurping of the throne make that much more sense. And casting Ozai in this new light of being a second born constantly in the shadow of the first born would also add even more depth to his preference of Azula, the second born, over Zuko, a first born, beyond the simple explanation of "she was stronger."

Then in Season 3, again, you just need one quick scene where Ozai visits Iroh in prison. Then he'd just gloat about how he'd already taken the crown that was going to be Iroh's, and now he was going to take the glory of conquering the world that also to be Iroh's.

And with literally with just two quick scenes spread across the 2nd and 3rd season you could have turned Ozai's character from flat to deep quite easily.


His motivation was probably glory. His desire to be Fire Lord in Zuko Alone, and his later crowning of himself the (I'd assume) first ever Phoenix King before setting off to burn the Earth Kingdom to the ground (with a newly discovered technology too) definitely scream "I WANT GLORY!" Also, his joy at seeing the Avatar in the finale speaks to this as well. Killing the Avatar and then conquering the world as the Phoenix King (while ending a 100 year long war) would permanently cement him in history.

But yeah, he was a really undeveloped villain especially considering Avatar's track record.

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