>>155211
tracing is only bad when you get caught, i know some artists making a living who trace some if not half their work because it's easier or they are just not into it. R34 is more tolerable as long as the artists admits to be tracing, but they don't get any praise or real following. Since r34 is just about sex, i doubt many care as long as they have their wank, unless it's some underage shit

34 shouldn't be held to any lower standard than regular art.

It's just as shameful to pass off a trace as original in porn as it is with anything else.

That said, there's limited value for the absolute beginner in tracing, just learning about how lines curve and join together. Muscle memory kind of stuff. But they still shouldn't be trying to pass it off as anything more than an exercise.

34 shouldn't be held to any lower standard than regular art.

It's just as shameful to pass off a trace as original in porn as it is with anything else.

That said, there's limited value for the absolute beginner in tracing, just learning about how lines curve and join together. Muscle memory kind of stuff. But they still shouldn't be trying to pass it off as anything more than an exercise.

Tracing is not acceptable for porn because it looks like shit if you use real people, and it looks soulless if you trace from the show. tracing from other porn artist better than you is actually plagiarism is illegal.

Most "tracing" that porn fans complain about is just photo reference, which isn't really a problem except in the minds of self-entitled porn viewers who think that porn artists are their personal bitches.

>>155279
>self-entitled

It isn't about that. Traced drawings generally look bad and obvious, and artists who rely on copying a reference, whether they copy photos or cartoon screenshots, usually don't have a notable, personal style.

Artists who can really draw are flexible, and you can pick out their work. Artists who just copy get lost in the shuffle of generic porn faces, crappy contour outlines, and the same poses we've all seen a million times but done better in hentai.

I studied the useless degree of graphic design in a college from my country and I learnt in a class about legal stuff, that, at least here, tracing is not illegal, as long as it does not receives the consumer in to impersonating the original, in the end everything is a trace, even when you draw from your mind you are tracing something you saw.

Its not looked down on mainstream media, its looked down on fucking deviant art and imageboards, because people that uses this places have the mentality that, if it does not takes effort then is not good or legit, which in society is false, because normally people lurk for maximum profit whit minimal efforts, basically people here compare art to a math test, remember, you can't draw what you haven't seen.

>>155293

Yeah I do exactly that and still get the anatomy fucked up, such is life.

>>155279
This. People are stupid. The accusation of tracing gets thrown around way too much by retards. OP's gif isn't even tracing.

>>155299
Maybe it's not illegal, but trying to make fame off someone else's work without crediting does make you a hack. Even if it's just for quick wank material. Either be open about it or git good.

>>155299
>even when you draw from your mind you are tracing something you saw.
I'm pretty sure that isn't tracing or else everything would be tracing and there would be no need to have a word for it since we already have the word "draw"

What they are talking about is the thing that people used to do with translucent paper back them and computers nowadays. Here is a discussion from a community that is not dominated by teenagers.
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189523

Personally I think it is rude to use someone else artwork without consent and without giving credit.

>>155299
Like >>155311 says, you seem to be confusing referencing with tracing. Nobody looks down on using reference material (assuming you don't just trace over it, I suppose).

The funny thing all this is that while people will usually take some liberties with the body/proportions, there's really little visible difference between a traced head and one that's simply properly drawn on-model.

As long as the author isn't selling it, I think it's fine. I mean really. If you're just making dirty pictures for people to jack off to for free, then who cares if you trace? In the R34 world, sometimes it's better if the character looks really on model.

Tracing other artists work is a bit skeezy too. But again, if you're not selling it, or not trying to be a credible artist, then fine.

>>155315

I disagree with this, especially for cartoons. Artists can often tell when another artist is tracing or rely too much on copying references. This is also why certain artists seem to be appreciated only by other artists, who can see what is being done and the real difficulty behind the work.

There's a bunch of rule34 with the right overall proportions, but shit detail, shit linework, shit rendering, recycled and unimaginative poses, and that's all very distracting. It's even easier to see when you look at an artist's entire body of work and see lack of cohesion. Compare someone who can truly draw versus someone who has to trace or copy a photo, the copier's drawing will seem lifeless.

>>155299

deceive, not recieve , fucking aurocorrector

>>155318
A real artist is never going to criticize somebody for using a reference. It's something all artists do, and it's good practice.

All this bitching about tracing seems to be coming mostly from non-artists who have no clue what the fuck they're talking about, but like to think they do.

Issues with linework, perspective, color picking, shading... etc. None of that has anything to do with tracing. That's all just a part of the years it takes, learning to draw And any skilled artist can recognize that, because they had to go through all those years themselves.

>>155318
A real artist is never going to criticize somebody for using a reference. It's something all artists do, and it's good practice.

All this bitching about tracing seems to be coming mostly from non-artists who have no clue what the fuck they're talking about, but like to think they do.

Issues with linework, perspective, color picking, shading... etc. None of that has anything to do with tracing. That's all just a part of the years it takes, learning to draw And any skilled artist can recognize that, because they had to go through all those years themselves.

>>155320
>A real artist is never going to criticize somebody for using a reference. It's something all artists do, and it's good practice.

And real artists know the difference between using reference and tracing. Seems like your graphic design degree sure was useless.

>>155321

A real artist can tell when someone is just tracing or directly copying, versus someone who can freely apply years of accumulated knowledge and visual library, and honed their fine motor skills. They might not criticize the tracer, but they aren't going to be impressed by it either.

>>155323
>real artists know the difference between references and tracing

Right. Which is why seeing non-artists like you fuck up the distinction is amusing.

i really dont care about tracing as long that the artwork is good.

I'd like to give my full opinion on this but seeing as how I do nude edits which is tracing, I'll not say much.

If you're tracing work, then it's best to make note of it and to contact the source if you can. If you're doing work that you are passing off completely as your own, then you want to stay as far from tracing as possible. There's nothing wrong with using references, in fact it is greatly encouraged.

To me, a simplified look at the differences between referencing and tracing is this:

Referencing is drawing side by side of the previous work you're using.
Tracing is drawing right over the previous work you're using.

Is using reference material bad? No. I think you will be hard-pressed to find a reasonably skilled artist who doesn't use reference at the very least from time to time, if not a great portion of the time, be it for posing, design, situation, props, style, anatomy, or perspective. Even before the days of the internet people would have a model pose and the the artist would use said model as reference (which, obviously, skilled artists still do today). With all of the resources available to modern artists, including products, photos, and guides designed specifically to be used as reference, it is a good idea to take advantage of them. As soon as you draw on top of a reference and pass it off as your own, it does become tracing. However, the less a piece relies directly upon each and every detail of the reference and the more it uses it as a checkpoint or a generic basis from which to develop something more unique, the better.

Is tracing bad? I guess it depends on your definition of bad. If you are some random name posting crude porn to wherever for free, at least no one is really hurt by it, I guess, beyond the artist getting irritated. If you sell it for money, that's where issues arise. Admittedly, it does get murky especially in the realm of style-mimicry or generic anime, for obvious reasons. If, say, in a cartoon, the character's head constantly changes appearance and proportions from scene to scene as the artists change, then obviously there will be problems.

In the case of Grimphantom, the radical fluctuations in quality from pic to pic, how he goes from producing relatively on-model works to ones that look like a random head attached to a generic body, and the occasional drawings that contain a jarring mix of decent parts and parts that are alarmingly poor, at least part of the answer should be obvious.

At the end of the day, the only ones who really care are the artists whose work has been swiped. He won't lose any fans over this. Most really do not care one way or the other.

Most people who pick up on tracing will be taken out of the moment and find it jarring. It depends on whether or not they notice it in a given body of work.

Also the debate about "real artist" is fucking hilarious.
>>155340
I doubt you're attempting to sell your nude edits and as well, I believe a nude edit is all but conceptually envisioned around the fact it is tracing. It's like an xray of a photograph, that is part of its intrinsic charm to the viewer. Quite different than Greg Land.

>>155340
>Referencing is drawing side by side of the previous work you're using.
>Tracing is drawing right over the previous work you're using.
This! Why does these kids are incapable of understanding basic concepts. Now they are gonna say that taking photos is tracing.

>>155346
Editing isn't even tracing. It's just editing. Not even illustrating. It's like photoshopping.

>>155348
You can go with that too, sure. My point is the dude shouldn't feel bad for giving his audience what they want.

>>155359
It really depends.

Right now toon porn is saturated with shitty traces and half assed crap that clutters up galleries, which makes you have to filter through mountains of shit to find a single quality porn drawing worth fapping to.

>>155318

I wouldn't normally copy this blatantly, but take this image for an example. A layman this could easily mistake this for a trace, especially if I properly inked it with the appropriate line weight. It can sometimes be a nuisance for skilled artists who work on-model.

(I was honestly kind of surprised this lined up as well as it did in the overlay. I'm not that talented, I actually just cheated by using a grid to make it easier to eyeball, but still.)

Also what if SOMEONE edits pics from SOME CERTAIN OTHERS whit out their consent? does that turns you on? does that makes your manhole wet?

>>155363
If you've done enough practice, to be honest it takes no more effort to just draw the head with the needed expression while looking at some basic reference than it does to find the EXACT head needed (and making sure you are finding a cap that is actually on-model and not a shitty one from poorly drawn scenes), overlay it, get it to match up just right, etc, and in the end the second one will generally look weird anyway.

Honestly, in terms of on-model cartoon fanart, drawing mostly on-model heads is probably one of the easiest, most basic parts, and if the artist is having to trace that, it does make sense to wonder about the rest of the work as well.

>>155366
It's an incredibly simplistic model. There are only so many ways you can make it different without being off model.

>>155372
Just look through screencaps of the show. The animators sure managed to generate a variety of subtly different heads for her.

>>155363

I hope you aren't insulted, but that is exactly why I don't care for on-model fan art so much as I care about artists who can really draw well and creatively.

As >>155366 said, doing direct copying to be on-model is really one of the most basic things to do. There's no personality to it.

>>155375
Direct copying IS easy. I don't do it in my own work, I was merely illustrating how a properly crafted on-model head isn't going to look much different than a traced one. The picture in the OP is clearly a trace, but it's not always so clear cut.

That said, I'm really mostly interested in parody and once a drawing gets too stylized and far away from the original source material, (extreme example: Zimmerman) it might as well be an original creation. It will still be a fine piece but loses its appeal as rule 34.

Anyway, back to topic, I don't really care about tracing in general. I won't give an obvious tracer much respect as an artist, but I don't blame them for wanting to show off their creations like a kid would.

>>155407
True, but when an artist has nearly 1.5k watchers and regularly sells 2 character pics for $60, you'd hope that people know that at least some of the time they are paying the guy to just draw directly on top of another artist's work. Knowledgeable buyers obviously expect (and sometimes specifically request) artists to use particular character and pose etc references when drawing their commissions, they don't however expect them to merely give them a re - inked version of another artist's (or group of artist's) work. Again, no one cares if some anon's awful pictures on paheal are him tracing over a random manga body and then tracing a tiny Marge Simpson head on it, but if he were to start charging for that or getting excessively positive artistic attention for that, then people would care to point out his theft.

Sorry, I meant nearly 15k watchers.

>>155408
and what makes you think this is happening?

>>155408
Wait, seriously?

I've never been part of the deviantart scene and I just assumed the guy was some hobbyist. That's pretty scummy.

>>155424
Have you even been reading the thread? Beyond any given evidence that has confirmed examples of it, his gallery has many of the hallmarks of tracing. Strange fluctuations of style and quality, heads that don't match right to the body, and, well, pics that have been shown to contain traced elements. His own muddled response to the issue shows it even further.

>>155426
Deviantart have all levels of artists. From the kids making Sonic/pony recolors and screaming DONOTSTEAL to big people that worked for big companies like Disney. I'm gonna quote from one of the pro artists. An artists that worked on a bunch of Disney movies, Some Disney comics based on movies, Muppets, Casper, Richie Rich, Strawberry Shortcake and I heard that there is also a My Little Pony comic but It still isn't listed in the artist site.

>Please note that all art in my gallery is copyright to me(or my publisher) and may NOT be reproduced, copied, traced or rehosted in any way. Seriously, you rip off my stuff, you're going down.

To me tracing from a tv show is nowhere near as bad as tracing from another person's work and presenting it entirely as your own.

For screenshots, I would draw the line at the head, face, and hair. Anything more and it should be noted. Anything else and the source for the reference/tracing should be mentioned and the artist should be made aware of it, preferably before posting the work.

>>155437
Oh I know DA has a broad range of talent.

By hobbyist, I just meant someone who draws purely for the fun of it. This guy looks to be a huge commission whore from what I saw of his page.

>>155439
Again, it is murky. Why is a TV show different than another random internet artist? TV cartoons don't draw themselves. So, maybe the pay involved is the question. Does it become OK to trace another artist's work if it was commissioned? Only if he charges more than you? And as for reference, at what point do you consider it a true reference? What if in browsing the internets you see a picture with an interesting idea that sparks a similar idea in you, but the posing, context, character, or whatever is different? What if it becomes ingrained in your head, and then 6 months later you think you are drawing an entirely imagined piece, only to realize you subconsciously reproduced the situation or poses in a pic you saw long ago (this is extremely common, since a lot of the time imagination can really just an altered memory). These are all just questions I'm posing. In my personal opinion tracing is never OK, and credit should be given for reference if it is extremely close to a unique piece of reference (as in, you are referencing more than just a generic pose or basic object) or if the drawing you are making borders more on a modified recreation of the reference versus having the reference serve as a basic inspiration. As far as I can tell most artists really don't care if somebody got an idea from their work or otherwise used it as a general reference. When somebody just draws on top of or reproduces it as 80% the same it is when it becomes problematic. The later tends to be obvious since the drawing often won't have the flow of being truly drawn and instead looks pasted together from parts of varying quality.

>>155435
I'm not seeing any evidence of somebody charging $60 for a trace, no.

>>155443

TV shows are composed of artists and animators. Most of the time they're using reference sheets and staying on model is a top priority. In most cases it's not as personal and a single frame from a cartoon can't be attributed to one person like it would be for an artist of a particular piece of work. That's why I would offer leeway for tracing a bit from screencaps.

Also, when you subconsciously recreate an image, you're basically referencing it from memory. As I've said before, to me tracing is drawing your lines straight over the source material.

80% is fairly generous before calling it tracing especially when it's over an artist's work.

>>155457
Yeah I worded that poorly. If you draw over something from another image, you traced it, period. I was saying that when the person is not tracing but is instead using the image as a reference and the image is overall very similar then I feel credit should be given for the reference. If you are just referencing a general pose and tweaking it as needed, or making basic use of it as a scenario reference, or so on, then I don't think it is mandatory to say "I got the idea of drawing so-and-so character in a bikini from -insert image-" or "I referenced this generic pose from -insert photo-" unless you just want to.

>>155460

That can be a grey area. It really is up to the artist themselves and how similar it is to another person's work. Usually it's best to just credit them or at least mention it and send some kind of notice about it to them.

Then if someone accuses you of tracing, you know that you made it known and didn't try to deceive people. I think the most egregious thing about tracing and plagiarism in general is taking all the credit.

>>155373
Shitty flash animation like that is notorious for having few expressions. It's not like it's John K or Tex Avery work. There might be a couple dozen, tops.

>>155470
Huh? Danny Phantom is not Flash animated. Also, I was not referring to expressions, but that the actual design of her head and face varies.

The 'rules' for tracing vary based on the delivery of the work. If youre making a random porn pic for your HF page, its only really shitty to trace if you dont tell people its a trace. Seriously, they dont care, theyre here to wank. just cite the trace and send the viewers to the original source. even if the original artist made that piece for free, he still deserves the credit and the followers, and the people looking at the trace deserve to know where hey can find more. Tracing and then trying to pass it off as your own work is the shitty thing to do. Just because both pieces were created for free doesnt make it not plagarism. Also, as others have said, it tends to look really shitty. Unless youre doing nude edits, just avoid it.

If youre selling your art, never trace. ever. The person is PAYING you for NEW artwork, not a characters head shooped onto the body of a girl from an H-game that theyve already been fapping to for years.

>>155213
This type of thinking is the cancer killing rule 34.

>>155321
Reference =/=Tracing, dumbass. The issue is too many wannabee pros call tracing "referencing" so they can feel better about themselves.

Using reference is using an image or something you see as a guideline for what you're drawing. Reference is what you look at to understand how something should be drawn.

Tracing is taking an image and attempting to copy it almost exactly as is, usually with horrible linework. You don't learn how to draw the subject because you're just trying to make a poor imitation, rather than learning how the thing you're referencing should be drawn.

>>155540
>Tracing is taking an image and attempting to copy it almost exactly as is, usually with horrible linework.

To clarify, copying =/= tracing. A good copy requires at least some small degree of skill. Drawing directly over the lines of an existing image doesn't.

Both are actually useful for learning to draw, but you have to eventually stop doing it. A lot of guys don't.

Tracing other artists is a friggin low.
Tracing the source material to be accurate is okay in my opinion as long as you turn it into something decent, not just... like... trace it and add a pussy.

I think its okay since I do it lol

>>155549
I must add that I mostly do that on the face (it's often very hard to draw authentically... not everything is as easy to draw as a Sonic or MLP character, why do you think so much porn of that exists...) and eventually on feet and hands because damnit, I can't draw feet and hands.

>>155549

I will never be able to do it, I simply cannot remember how stuff looks, much less a character... Is like my brain has the memory of a Wii U or something. I have loads of "references" because I have been hoarding porn the last 6 or 7 years this is my 3rd HHD. Luckily, I just do it for the perversion of the people, or as I call it, "the Fine cuisine of sin"

>>155333

>honed their fine motor skills

Someone needs to check their Neurological health privilege, whats the matter?, did your mom gave you fish as a baby or somethin? do you liked to eat green veggies as a kid?

>when artists traces from books
>Oh, no, I'm just l-learning by c-copying the great masters

>when someone traces from him
>DIE YOU PIECE OF SHIT HOW DARE YOU TRACE ME!~!11!!!!1!!

>>155598
Nice bait

And its not just porn that rip off!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBWKQy2hrD0