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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

File 139246091737.jpg - (32.41KB , 368x294 , 1335219813497.jpg )
223495 No. 223495
So seeing as it's (just past) Valentines day, lets talk about everyone's favorite subject, shipping!

Who's your favorite ship?
Who's your favorite crack ship?
What pairing do you despise?

Previous Thread: >>222793
Expand all images
>> No. 223497
>shipping
NOPE

Also Flynn posed this
>Ian Flynn wrote:Thus far, three games haven't happened in the new continuity:
>- Sonic Unleashed
>- Sonic Lost World
>- Sonic Chronicles: Dark Brotherhood

>Why not Sonic Unleashed?
>It will become more clear once "The Chase" is done (STH#258-259), but suffice to say, if Unleashed had already happened, a lot of the tension and mystery of the "Shattered World Crisis" would be lost.

>Why not Sonic Lost World?
>Going forward, I'd really like to keep to the order of the games. >Thankfully, the games after Shadow are fairly self-contained, allowing me to "wait" on doing Unleashed until now.

>Why not Sonic Chronicles?
>Mr. Penders. I'm not sweating it at the moment, though, since >Chronicles is supposed to take place a few years after the main timeline anyway. We have plenty of stories to tell until then.

So I guess Danica Patrick exists in the comic now.
>> No. 223501
>>223475
>We're back at an "issue 1" state where it's implicit that they've had plenty of previous adventures but they haven't been shown to us because...well, how the hell are you going to do that without interrupting the current story?

but 252 did interrupt the current story
>> No. 223502
>>223497
I fucking knew it. Guess we won't be seeing the Nocturnus for awhile. Guess Knuckle's arc is going to be rather dull.
>> No. 223505
>>223477
Really appreciate it. Didn't mean to sound like such a dick about it.
>> No. 223506
>>223501
>Knuckles is going to be dull because he doesn't have multiple echidnae to talk to.
I'm gonna slap you.

>>223497
Nobody said the crossover games don't just involve Sanic going to alternate universes and junk.
>> No. 223510
>>223506
Considering that all the alternate universes getting exploded is a recent plot point...
>> No. 223511
>>223510
Considering that the very next page clarifies that every single facet of reality fell into itself and was recreated in a new image (more SegaSonic accurate and less legally sketchy, for those who can't read between the lines)...
>> No. 223512
I think all the doomsayers about the Freedom Fighters not appearing in any game adaptions are jumping to wild conclusions.

So Antoine and Bunnie say they weren't part of Sonic Adventures 1.

That doesn't automatically mean all the Freedom Fighters never appeared in any of the other games either.

Hell, technically it doesn't even rule out all of the Freedom Fighters from appearing in Sonic Adventure, Sally, Nicole and Rotor "could" have appeared in it. We just don't know cause we haven't seen it in the comics.
>> No. 223513
>>223512
Does it really count as doomsaying when it's a good thing? The early 3D games are already clusterfucks as far as stories go and the FFs were shunted from the Genesis games back in the old comics anyway. I'd rather assume they were just busy when Adventure happened then try to tie them into it.
>> No. 223514
>>223513
The games stories are a clusterfuck because they're stories meant for video games, and thus subservient to gameplay needs.

If the comic adapted them, simply by being in a different medium it would significantly change the content in the first place. And that's not a bad thing, people don't want to read a word for word recap of a game they can just play.

We already know these aren't straight literal adaptions. Seeing as things like Sonic Unleashed have not happened yet, but if Sonic Generations happened that means the Rooftop Run stage didn't happen.
These aren't 100% accurate to the games anyway.

Can you honestly say that a story like Heroes or Battle would be hurt if they were slightly re-imagined? Especially since the only tangible difference it would make to the modern comic is the Freedom Fighters going "yup, I remember being part of that" instead of "Nope, I was home knitting that day".
>> No. 223517
>>223514
>The games stories are a clusterfuck because they're stories meant for video games, and thus subservient to gameplay needs.
Specifically the older ones, like A1, 2, and Shadow. It's honestly best not to poke the hornet's nest with these because they're so wishy washy and overly complicated to give some kind of illusion of "depth" that it's absurd. Anyone can look this material up on Youtube or a wiki. Yes, even children. It's honestly easier to find that stuff than to find/buy the comics anyway.


>If the comic adapted them, simply by being in a different medium it would significantly change the content in the first place. And that's not a bad thing, people don't want to read a word for word recap of a game they can just play.
I agree, see above.

>We already know these aren't straight literal adaptions.
Unleashed and games that have points of ambiguity, specifically. Ian admitted Unleashed got pulled out because where/when doesn't matter much after Shadow/06 and games like Shadow (multiple paths) and Colors (multiple versions with slightly different stories) need some pick-and-choosing.

>Can you honestly say that a story like Heroes or Battle would be hurt if they were slightly re-imagined?
I can honestly say re-imagining Heroes isn't worth anyone's time. It's a thing that happened. Metal Sonic became a dragon once, the end.
Would I like NEW stories, potentially featuring a return of Neo Metal? Yeah, that'd be pretty cool.
On Battle's case, it's another Adventure in my eyes. Long and meandering for the sake of multi-character stories. Adapting it wouldn't be a good call. Maybe making a montage issue callback for Gemerl? Sure. Actually redoing it? Nah. You either skip important points or end up slogging through a boring recap.

>The only difference being FF inclusion
Except we both already agreed that's not true in a good adaptation. It's not going to be exact or it's going to be shit. The Freedom Fighters don't have to be attached to Sonic's hip to be worth a damn. It's fine for Sonic to have adventures without them every once in a while, he's going to be hanging with them almost constantly from now on from what we're seeing with the new team-heavy focus.

I get that you don't like that the Freedom Fighters aren't in the adaptations, but they don't have to be. I'm fine with remaking Unleashed a bit to better suit the comic's story. I'm fine with Lost World being fleshed out a bit in the future. Asking for at least one FF to be part of everything and saying that "Yeah they were doing something else" is doomsaying is absolutely ridiculous.

Even in the comic from 0 to 247 there were plenty of issues where the FFs weren't involved anyway. The writers constantly ignored Bunnie for several years, Antoine may very well have the world record for "most appearances standing in the background not actually doing anything", writers tried to write Rotor out multiple times, and Nicole wasn't even a real character until halfway into the comic's life.

I'm not opposed to more creative adaptations of games. I'm against this weird need for everything to be adapted when it's already background material. The comic didn't exactly have a Sonic 2 adaptation outside of Genesis and the FFs might not have been involved with that, but does that really matter?
>> No. 223518
>>223493
You should try, it'll decrease the number of pointless things you'll sperge about.
>> No. 223519
I have to point out as well that
>It made sense in the old timeline for him to stick with the Freedom Fighters because he had history with them
is completely wrong. He's not with them because he was already with them. He's with them because they're his friends, and if you really need 250 issues of epic events to prove that, I don't think you have any idea how the character or even friends in general work.
>> No. 223521
>>223471
>We can just as easily make the "history" section its own page(s) and keep the main article neutral.
Oh, nice idea. That could work very well for the characters that carry over (Sonic, Sally, etc.) So you'd have
>Sonic the Hedgehog (character)
>History of Sonic the Hedgehog - Pre-Wave
>History of Sonic the Hedgehog - Post-Wave
The Pre-Wave would then have that larger list of events, while the post-Wave would just be a summation because not much has happened yet. This would also take care of problems that would arise when their backstories diverge (as I assume they will, if they even start out the same.)

I still think characters like King Acorn, who are different between the two versions, should just have one page for each side (assuming he gets enough screen time to warrant a post-wave page.)

>>223497
So Sonic Generations has happened, or is the timeline stuff enough that we'll just not have it in the comic? Incidentally, a comic-oriented Sonic Generations would be a great way to have the post-Wave world interact with the pre-Wave world...

>>223514
>If the comic adapted them, simply by being in a different medium it would significantly change the content in the first place. And that's not a bad thing, people don't want to read a word for word recap of a game they can just play.
Agreed. Especially when it comes to anime/manga, I'll usually wait for the anime because I don't want to follow both when they're just going to use the exact same storyline and scenes.

>>223519
Yup, they were friends long before the Freedom Fighters were a thing. They simply banded together under the Freedom Fighters as a more concrete group of friends with direction and goals.
>> No. 223523
>>223521
I don't really see the need to have two different pages for characters like Acorn. I mean, what they did was different and their general personality/role in the story may change, but...there's nothing really stopping articles like that from having a little split internally, a pre- and post section.

It's already bad enough that the wiki has pages like "this is Sonic from Sonic X, he is like regular Sonic but slightly different" and "this is Sonic from ATAP. he is sonic x sonic except not in sonic x."
>> No. 223524
>>223523
That's why I said
>(assuming he gets enough screen time to warrant a post-wave page.)
Right now his character is just a bit part so it should stay one page for now, but pre-wave he was pretty important at various points. If he rises to that level of importance in this new world, then I believe it will be worth splitting his page into two because his backstory and character are radically different.
>> No. 223525
>>223524
And that doesn't change my opinion.

If he ends up with a ton of different crap going down, why bother making two different pages instead of a history page? Now that I think about it, why'd you propose characters getting TWO history pages, anyway? Shouldn't one page on its own be enough?
>> No. 223528
>>223505
No problem, it's cool.


>>223497
Ian cleared it up a little:
>"There's some that I won't be trying to shoehorn in there, like Sonic R, Waku Waku, etc. The Game Gear games might get included in other ways besides a full adaptation. The Genesis-era and Dreamcast-to-Modern games are the main concern."


He also put up a small Lost Hedgehog Tales teaser.
http://bumbleking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=385380#p385380
>> No. 223536
>>223528
>3 hours of writing
>5000 words
Damn.
>> No. 223537
>>223517
>Except we both already agreed that's not true in a good adaptation.

...No. We didn't agree to that. I don't understand what you're referencing?

I'm honestly having trouble reading a lot of your post. What do you mean by
>Asking for at least one FF to be part of everything and saying that "Yeah they were doing something else" is doomsaying is absolutely ridiculous.

or
>I'm not opposed to more creative adaptations of games. I'm against this weird need for everything to be adapted when it's already background material. The comic didn't exactly have a Sonic 2 adaptation outside of Genesis and the FFs might not have been involved with that, but does that really matter?

I don't think we're on the same wave length, and I can't really reply if I don't understand your argument.
>> No. 223539
>>223519
Penguin God are you being deliberately obtuse?

You see in the past you have a bit of habit where once you get worked up in an argument you stop really.... caring about the substance an argument, and more about saving face and arguing for the sake of arguing.

I just wanna ask if you wanna check yourself, are you dragging this out cause of pride?


But anyway
>is completely wrong. He's not with them because he was already with them. He's with them because they're his friends,

and WHY were they such good friends that Sonic could "reasonably"
(and that is in quotes because it still doesn't quite fit his character)
ignore his carefree and rebellious attitude to serve in Sally's personal army? FYI we're talking post Endgame here, after the team had completed its original goals and the games canon exploded in size.

Oh yeah, because he'd already spent a ton of comic book adventures with the group. There weren't just friends, they were his family.


Or are you honestly trying to argue that at the beginning of the book, issue 0, Sonic had exactly the same reason to be in the Freedom Fighters than in the modern comic? You know, back when Sonic wasn't even friends with everyone in the group.

That's fucking ridiculous.

And how does this relate back to the original point?
Oh yeah, cause the new 252 has traded off 90% of their history for nothing, yet the comic doesn't reflect that, Sonic is still "family" with the FF, hence justification for Sonic sticking with the FF.
Even though it makes little sense, since in this new games purist timeline, the FF are the jobbers Sonic hangs out with on his days off. They haven't done anything together.
>> No. 223540
>>223539
in this timeline Sonic should have joined the Chaotix, at least they have some real history together
>> No. 223541
>>223539
>"I just wanna ask if you wanna check yourself, are you dragging this out cause of pride?"

If you're the same guy from before, couldn't people say you're doing the same thing for the same reason, really? You just keep making stuff up for your argument, like "They haven't done anything together" just because we haven't seen much of the new continuity's history yet.
>> No. 223542
>>223541
Fuck you, I'm not making up anything. I'm working exactly with what we've got.

what we got is
>We know Endgame didn't happen, so the first 50 issues of the comic can basically be written off.
>We know Sally didn't get robotized so the events since 225 didn't happen.
>Antoine and Bunnie basically confirmed that the Freedom Fighters didn't appear in the game adaptions of this universe.
>The Free Comic Book day story appears to remove the possibility that >Sonic knew them from his childhood.
>Penders events certainly didn't happen.
>And all the events with characters that don't exist i.e Mogul, Iron Queen, Enerjak can't have happened.

So basically 90% of the comics history has been purged, and with that nearly all of the FFs adventures and history with Sonic.
Oh, but I guess it was traded off for Spinball. So there's that.

You know I never actually called this bleak picture "doomsaying", other people said that. That it looked like a prophesy of doom.
It's funny how now people are trying to paint the situation as a good thing, "not joined at the hip"! How positive.
>> No. 223544
>>223542
>"Fuck you, I'm not making up anything."

Saying that they have no reason to be friends, or that they're banded together for no good reason, is making things up to further your argument. And whenever it was pointed out why that makes no sense because even in the original comic they were friends to begin with and banded together to fight Robotnik after he tricked the King, you've ignored it or dismissed it.


>"It's funny how now people are trying to paint the situation as a good thing, "not joined at the hip"! How positive."

It's bad that people like the current comic?
>> No. 223545
>>223542
It still is doomsaying.

See >>223512

Bunnie & Antoine not appearing in one game =/= All the Freedom Fighters being absent from all games.
>> No. 223547
File 139252176753.jpg - (8.59KB , 250x250 , 13095203757710.jpg )
223547
>>223544
>Saying that they have no reason to be friends, or that they're banded together for no good reason, is making things up to further your argument.
No. It's isn't. I have already given good quality, detailed posts already explaining this.
If you are going to ignore them because they're inconvenient to your argument, then fuck you.

But I'll repeat myself, if you want to invent a headcanon history for the FF to give them good reason to be "family" with Sonic in the new timeline, invent fake history in between the games that will never realistically be expanded on, good for you, but that's still fucking fanfiction.
It's still poor quality writing, equivalent to inventing an OC and making it Sonic's offscreen bother.

>And whenever it was pointed out why that makes no sense because even in the original comic they were friends to begin with and banded together to fight Robotnik after he tricked the King, you've ignored it or dismissed it.
Oh my god, are you even reading my posts? That's IRRELEVANT. For many, well detailed reasons that have already been explained THOROUGHLY in this and the previous thread.

Your fixation with this, that Sonic was friends with the FF at issue #0, is not a good argument. It's not anything. It's fucking white noise you're clinging to because you can't admit your wrong.

>>223545
>It still is doomsaying.
>Bunnie & Antoine not appearing in one game =/= All the Freedom Fighters being absent from all games.

Yeah, what's that old saying? People will argue for anything against reason if it's beneficial to them?

I sympathize that you want the FF to still have relevance in the new timeline, really.

But take a reality check, Flynn was sending a message in 257. He was telling the audience that the past games happened exactly as the happened in the games. It wasn't just some arbitrary conversation to fill space. It was a conversation included for a purpose.

It's technically possible. But technicalities just obscure the real truth.
>> No. 223551
>>223539
I think it should be pointed out that in the old continuity, the comic approached Sonic joining the Freedom Fighters as both him joining a bunch of strangers and becoming their friends just before the story actually started and also from the angle of him having been their friends since he was a kid.

Nothing has changed with the new continuity, we just don't know how he met them, and we're getting that answer next month. Sonic hangs with the FFs because they're his buds and he loves saving the world. It's the same reason he hangs out with Knuckles these days, they go looking for trouble because that's just how they are.

>are you honestly trying to argue that at the beginning of the book, issue 0, Sonic had the same reason to be in the Freedom Fighters than in the modern comic?
Not PG, but...yeah. Pretty much. He has no better reason to help them at the beginning than he does later on. Sonic just DOES shit like this. Look at Secret Rings, Black Knight, Colors, etc. Sonic likes getting into fights and wrecking Eggman's stuff. He hangs out with people because he becomes their friend or they're involved with an adventure. It wouldn't be a stretch to say Sonic's known the FFs about as long as he's known Knuckles or the Chaotix in this continuity, so there's no reason to question why he'd hang with the single most dedicated group to taking down Eggman in the entire planet.

>>223542
>We know Endgame didn't happen, so the first 50 issues of the comic can basically be written off.
This was already explained to you. Specific events not happening =/= all events previous did not happen. Eggman still tricked King Max, but your argument would tell us that this OBVIOUSLY didn't happen since issue 43 can't be possible.
You're implying that near approximations of events can't happen even though that's already been confirmed to be a thing with TTT (certain events from TTT are impossible to occur in the new continuity, but all of the relevant characters remember it even without any sort of memory tampering). Shit, what's there to say that the Enerjak thing didn't happen but Knuckles was turned into a brainwashed Hyper Knuckles? It's the same story, the big difference is the names of certain items and characters involved.

You're making tons of assumptions and stating that it's factually impossible for Sonic to have relationships with other characters simply because things didn't happen exactly the same way they did before. That's kind of ridiculous. I'd continue to explain the problems with your argument, but when you're making crazy assumptions like "The Freedom Fighters were never involved with anything" just because Antoine and Bunnie didn't fight Perfect Chaos, I think I might be better off just assuming you're an idiot.
>> No. 223552
>>223547
Woah, calm down. I think if we're both claiming the other's ignoring our posts, then we're both probably missing something here.

Everything I said is based on something we've seen. 252 showed Eggman still tricking the King, and Origins is heavily implied to be showing how Sonic started banding together with the FFs in this world. We won't know the exact details until it's out, but it's pretty reasonable to assume from that and the way they acted to each other before getting the memories that they're friends here too. That's why I think it's silly to believe they aren't friends or have no reason to work together.

The friends with the FF at #0 and in the start of SatAM thing is just there to show that this isn't the first time where we're seeing them start off as friends and then learn the why later.


>>223551
>"Specific events not happening =/= all events previous did not happen."

This too. Even apart from the King thing, we know Bunnie and Antoine still got married, Naugus took over the city, and even that SA1 still happened. Nicole even implied that the first Genesis Wave still happened in some form too when talking about Naugus' powers. All these things happened in both worlds, but the details got changed up. If other stuff happened in a different form, that's up to Ian to decide.
>> No. 223553
>>223547
Not sure if crazy or just stupid, but the fact that we don't know the history of how Sanic became friends with the furry fucks doesn't invalidate the fact that he's friends with them. It just means we don't know what happened between then and now. That and the comic was always portraying them as BFFs without even fucking knowing each other previously. Shit, everyone knew everything about Bunnie by the time she made her second appearance, like she had been there all along.

>He was telling the audience that the past games happened exactly as the happened in the games.
Or he was telling the audience that Adventure didn't happen like the old Archie Sonic Adventure adaptation. If he was just white-washing them out of all the games why is he even bothering with incorporating them into Unleashed or revisiting it at all? Rotor didn't even do anything during Sonic Adventure the first time around, so why does the fact that how those two characters play into the story was altered mean that those characters have no role in any adaptations ever? Why is your reading more valid than mine? Why do you seem to assume that only you can peer into Ian's mind and tell exactly what he's trying to express?
>> No. 223554
>>223497
How long do you think Flynn will stretch out Unleashed then if he only has one other game he can adapt, which is probably off limits anyway.

I'm guessing we're riding the werehog train all the way to 275 at least
>> No. 223555
>>223554
Probably, but 275's really only a year and a half away anyway, and it looks like it's going to be mostly shorter adventures leading up to the end of the story instead of some big clump of everything like Iron Dominion was, so I'm not worried.
>> No. 223562
File 13925314521.gif - (491.63KB , 438x238 , tumblr_m6rp15ehbO1qc5pzgo1_500.gif )
223562
>>223539
They're good friends because they have chemistry, just like they always have. A person who starts reading the book at issue 1, 160, or 252 can come away with that knowledge because it's not the amount of plots they've been through together that makes them work so well together. It's that they're a bunch of friends whose personalities bounce off each other well.
They didn't have specific huge events happen that we know of, no Endgame or Sonic Adventure. But it's incredibly clear that they've had adventures together, and a reader has no need to know what those are to assume Sonic's close with his friends.
Fuck you and fuck you twice for assuming I'm just trying to save face.

>>223554
I would guess around 12 issues maybe at the longest. Unleashed is a big story, but it's pretty simple. The way it's set up though, you could even do other stories in the middle of it without problems (like Chun Nan did in the game with the phoenix.)

>>223521
What about a history tab for the characters, that just includes everything on the side? I think the One Piece wiki does that for its main characters. It helps the main pages stay clean and any differences can be explained on there.
>> No. 223564
>>223562
>What about a history tab for the characters, that just includes everything on the side? I think the One Piece wiki does that for its main characters. It helps the main pages stay clean and any differences can be explained on there.
Ooh, I like that.
>> No. 223565
File 139253496535.gif - (2.00MB , 245x166 , 203572039752.gif )
223565
>>223551
>>223552
>>223553
Good grief, this never ends, does it?

>>223539
>I think it should be pointed out that in the old continuity, the comic approached Sonic joining the Freedom Fighters as both him joining a bunch of strangers and becoming their friends just before the story actually started and also from the angle of him having been their friends since he was a kid.

>Nothing has changed with the new continuity, we just don't know how he met them, and we're getting that answer next month.

What do you mean "Nothing has changed". Of course it's fucking changed. The circumstances are literally different.

Sonic now wasn't friends with the FF when he was a kid. He hasn't been battling with the FF since the story "started" (Sonic 1), and he may not even had a hand in forming the Freedom Fighters, since they could easily be a pre-existing group in this universe, who Sonic and Tails just join for the hell of it.

It's basically the opposite of "Nothing has changed".

>Sonic hangs with the FFs because they're his buds and he loves saving the world. It's the same reason he hangs out with Knuckles these days, they go looking for trouble because that's just how they are.

Yes we have been over this.

This conversation is NOT about IF Sonic, in this new continuity, is deep friends with the FF.

Nobody has asserted otherwise. Not once.

This conversation is about (but not entirely about) WHY Sonic is deep friends with the FF in this new continuity, if they have no damn history together. (And that is not a literal statement, geniuses, I have been saying from the start that 90% of the comics history has been lost, or in other words about 10% of the comics history has been retained.)

It makes sense for Sonic to hang out with Knuckles. Canon wise he has a deep history with him, a friendly rivalry, that exists in REAL LIFE, since you can go play the games, and experience it.

Of course, the incredibly dumb counterpoint you guys have been pushing, is that we should use our ~I M A G I N A T I O N~ to "fill in the blacks" regarding what Sonic and the FF have been up between canon games (in replacement of the stories we lost), in order to constructs a prequel fanfiction of sorts where it makes sense for Sonic to currently have a deep relationship with the FF on par with say Knuckles, in the new timeline.

And of course, as a SEPERATE argument I've suggested, that it would have been better for the comics' narrative/plot, for the ease of access for new readers and better pacing, that the 252 universe simply started with Sonic meeting the FF for the first time.

>Not PG, but...yeah. Pretty much. He has no better reason to help them at the beginning than he does later on. Sonic just DOES shit like this. Look at Secret Rings, Black Knight, Colors, etc. Sonic likes getting into fights and wrecking Eggman's stuff.

That's just blatantly wrong. Firstly, you're misrepresenting Sonic's character. You're pointing to games that support MY position. Games that exemplify how Sonic is a free spirit, a radical, someone who doesn't take orders and will do what he feels is right.

All personality aspects that conflict with Sonic being part of a dedicated organization where he's simply the brute force and someone else drives him.

It still made sense, at the brining of Archie Sonic, for Sonic to be part the Freedom Fighters in the old continuity, from the start. For in universe reasons (there was a specific threat, he had a crush on a girl) and out of universe reasons (it was a blank slate, comedy based, etc).

But, later in the comic, when Robotnik was dead, the Freedom Fighters had finished their goals, saved Sally's Dad, etc etc
It stopped making so much sense that Sonic was still a Freedom Fighter, personality wise, for in universe reasons (no objectives like Sally's Dad, just perpetually battling Eggman as a reaction to his shit) and out of universe reasons (the games actually had a huge canon now, and Sonic had plenty game friends as big as the FF).
Yet it still had a reasonable basis for being that way, because Sonic relationship with them HAD grown, they were family.

>He hangs out with people because he becomes their friend or they're involved with an adventure. It wouldn't be a stretch to say Sonic's known the FFs about as long as he's known Knuckles or the Chaotix in this continuity, so there's no reason to question why he'd hang with the single most dedicated group to taking down Eggman in the entire planet.

And this part is part relates back to all the previous arguments I've outlined here.
-Asking the audience to invent a fake, headcanon history for the new FF to fill in the gaps (which is almost their entire history now)
-Misrepresenting Sonic's personality as someone who is drawn to being a cog in a team proactively hunting down Eggman, instead of reacting to Eggman's plans.
-Presuming that it makes sense that Sonic would choose to hang out with the FF regardless of if they are friends or not, cause they're the most after Eggman (like seriously, under that logic he'd might as well join Shadow with GUN.)

It comes down to you holding a LOT of misconceptions.

>(I wrote) We know Endgame didn't happen, so the first 50 issues of the comic can basically be written off.
>This was already explained to you. Specific events not happening =/= all events previous did not happen.
As it relates back to the first 50 issues? The issues that were dubiously canon under the old timeline? Oh yeah, I'm sure new252!Sonic battled the Universalamander...

But this broader statement, I refer back to my "I have been saying from the start that 90% of the comics history has been lost, or in other words about 10% of the comics history has been retained"

>Eggman still tricked King Max, but your argument would tell us that this OBVIOUSLY didn't happen since issue 43 can't be possible.
>You're implying that near approximations of events can't happen even though that's already been confirmed to be a thing with TTT (certain events from TTT are impossible to occur in the new continuity, but all of the relevant characters remember it even without any sort of memory tampering).

And this is the 10%, the slim slim pickings from the old continuity (most of which don't even related the FF anyway) that managed to make the cut. I'm surprised you didn't mention Ant and Bun's wedding too.

Don't you try to tell me these crumbs of canon are equivalent to the mountain of canon lost to the reboot. That's just a insult to the intelligence to anybody reading here.

It's piss poor justification for Sonic still regarding the FF exactly the same, and under any scrutiny terrible a endorsement of their actual relevance to the modern comic. I like the FF but in this new timeline they might as well not existed at all.

>Shit, what's there to say that the Enerjak thing didn't happen but Knuckles was turned into a brainwashed Hyper Knuckles? It's the same story, the big difference is the names of certain items and characters involved.

This is what I call grasping at straws.
A hyper-creative reimagining of events that distorts the original premise so far as to be unrecognizable, or falls apart under the lightest scrutiny.

I honestly can't relate to how people could advocate hyper Brainwashed KnucklesJak, and all of the canon breaking, impossible implications that arise from it. That are also game purists saying it's a sin to change a even tiny element from the games. It's a mind-blowing contortion of logic.

>You're making tons of assumptions and stating that it's factually impossible for Sonic to have relationships with other characters simply because things didn't happen
exactly the same way they did before.
Misrepresentation of what I've said, see above for answers.

>That's kind of ridiculous. I'd continue to explain the problems with your argument, but when you're making crazy assumptions like "The Freedom Fighters were never involved with anything" just because Antoine and Bunnie didn't fight Perfect Chaos, I think I might be better off just assuming you're an idiot.

Likewise, when you completely ignore my argument, just reverberating the same flawed excuses and failed arguments like a ritualistic chant or religious dogma, I'm inclined to say you're an idiot.

>>223547
>Woah, calm down. I think if we're both claiming the other's ignoring our posts, then we're both probably missing something here.

There appears to be a communication problem here, so I've endeavoured to making myself clear and simple.

>Everything I said is based on something we've seen. 252 showed Eggman still tricking the King, and Origins is heavily implied to be showing how Sonic started banding together with the FFs in this world.
This is the 10%, the remnants of 90% you can't reasonably justify this as being an equivalent trade off. And please don't make PG's mistake of assuming that for every comic lost of the old timeline, there is some sort of substitute hypothetical comic that replaces it so it all evens out. That's just a fallacy.

>We won't know the exact details until it's out, but it's pretty reasonable to assume from that and the way they acted to each other before getting the memories that they're friends here too. That's why I think it's silly to believe they aren't friends or have no reason to work together.

Nobody's arguing they aren't friends in this timeline. It's the theoretical basis for this friendship that's up for dispute. The relevance they have to Sonic and the timeline now that they have been relegated to the B-team who Sonic only possibly hangs out with while he's not on a game adventure. (And considering all the games adventures he's been on, and that they all take place in a year, that's got to be a pretty slim amount of quality time...)

>The friends with the FF at #0 and in the start of SatAM thing is just there to show that this isn't the first time where we're seeing them start off as friends and then learn the why later.

This point, as I've addressed before, is undermined because they are not starting off in equivalent situations from Satam or Issue 0. Hell, even the core truth of such a statement undermined because Sonic does not have the same level of relationship with all the FF now as he did at the start. Ant for obvious example, Sonic could hardly be called his friend.
And any suggestion that they were as deep a relationship back then or in satam with any of the characters is just hollow. Through their trials and adventures they've grown together.

I understand this is a hard point to covey, it touches onto many point and is hard to wrap your head around the whole thing, but please bare with me

>>223547
Not sure if crazy or just stupid, but the fact that we don't know the history of how Sanic became friends with the furry fucks doesn't invalidate the fact that he's friends with them. It just means we don't know what happened between then and now.

I've addressed this quite thoroughly in this post so please save me the trouble and just above where applicable.

>That and the comic was always portraying them as BFFs without even fucking knowing each other previously. Shit, everyone knew everything about Bunnie by the time she made her second appearance, like she had been there all along.

That is literally wrong. Factually incorrect. If you honestly believe that then you need to re-read the comics to reacquaint yourself with the canon.

I mean, a statement like saying Bunnie's relationship with Sonic and has stagnated after one issue for 250 issues is just one of sheer absurdity.

>(I wrote) He was telling the audience that the past games happened exactly as the happened in the games.
>Or he was telling the audience that Adventure didn't happen like the old Archie Sonic Adventure adaptation. If he was just white-washing them out of all the games why is he even bothering with incorporating them into Unleashed or revisiting it at all?
Why Flynn is even bothering with incorporating them into Unleashed is a pretty valid question.
We know the real world reasons, they're popular with the fans, they're a good writer tool to do stuff game characters are banned from doing. But their internal relevance to the modern comic is the crux of this entire argument.

>Rotor didn't even do anything during Sonic Adventure the first time around, so why does the fact that how those two characters play into the story was altered mean that those characters have no role in any adaptations ever?

I really don't want to argue this technicality, it's such a distraction from the reality this new comic faces.

The direction of the comic has been sliding to game fidelity for years, Flynn is still setting up a new universe, he's not dedicating pages to inconsequential fluff, like Ant and Bunnie not appearing in Adventures if it doesn't have the implicit further reaching ramifications of telling the audience that now the games are 100% accurate. If he wanted to just say the original Adventures adaption was non canon he could have had anyone say in one panel "Wow, this is not how I remember it!". It was a deliberate choice. So can we please not ignore the elephant in the room.

>Why is your reading more valid than mine? Why do you seem to assume that only you can peer into Ian's mind and tell exactly what he's trying to express?

Oh come on, this isn't a interpretive dance, it's a cold hard reading of what's going on in this comic by analysing all the facts we have on hand. My reading had validity because I've weighed up all the evidence, I've constructed a compelling case, and exposed flaws in the alternative options. Occam's razor. I'm arguing the case with the most likelihood, not the technicality that might sound pleasant on paper.

This is nothing personally against you, even though I might be rude, I'm just trying to cut through all the fourm bullshit and talk about the comic in real terms.

tl;dr This is too much fucking writing.
>> No. 223566
>>223562
Oh yeah and fuck you PG, I've already addressed your bullshit.

You'll save more face by just admitting you were wrong, or stop replying.
>> No. 223572
>>223565
>giant wall of text

I think you're taking this a little too seriously.

>Oh come on, this isn't a interpretive dance, it's a cold hard reading of what's going on in this comic by analysing all the facts we have on hand. My reading had validity because I've weighed up all the evidence, I've constructed a compelling case, and exposed flaws in the alternative options. Occam's razor. I'm arguing the case with the most likelihood, not the technicality that might sound pleasant on paper.

Not really. You've just been talking down and misrepresenting everyone else's points because you don't agree with them even when they're using facts, and thinking yours are more valid because you don't want to give up the argument either, even though you've been making a lot of assumptions too. If your whole point was why they're friends with Sonic, why didn't you just end this the moment Sonic Origins was brought up?

Nice gif, by the way.
>> No. 223573
File 139254196348.png - (33.77KB , 95x158 , 2.png )
223573
So shipping!

Who is Nicoles best ship? Shard, Espio or Rotor?
>> No. 223577
See what happens when you don't make a passive aggressive OP
>> No. 223578
And for the record I think calling anyone we think is stupid Mav is a hilarious development
>> No. 223579
>>223573
Shadow, clearly. Girl loves the angst.
>> No. 223581
>>223573
we all know it's nicole/marathon op anon
>> No. 223582
>>223581
Dont forget Blaze X Spiderman is a thing.
And that what I love about shipping.
Dumb fun.
>> No. 223585
>>223578
For the record, that is hilarious, sad, and worrisome for me.
>> No. 223590
>>223585
I blame you for this.

I have absolutely no reason to, but I'm doing it anyway.
>> No. 223591
>>223565
Might want to have waited until Sonic Comic Origins came out, Anon.

Sonic's known the F.F. since they were kids.

The Bunnie/Antoine dialogue in STH#257 was to illustrate that we are now in a new continuity, and that the memories of the old one are already fading. That's all.
>> No. 223593
File 139257258733.gif - (1.95MB , 400x306 , 132750275023.gif )
223593
>>223591
Oh great, now I look like an asshole.

I guess I owe everyone an apology for wasting everyone's time. Sorry.

But if the premise of my argument had been correct, it would have still been right!
>> No. 223596
>>223593
Well take heart in the fact you don't (just) look like an asshole, anon.
>> No. 223597
>>223591
Note how Ian said "Sonic's known the F.F. since they were kids. "

"KNOWN" the F.F.

Not "Been one of the F.F." or even "been friends with the F.F.".

From this we can conclude conclusions.

Also note that the latest issue said that Dulcy was inspired by Sally. HMMMM, trying to lay the blame for Dulcy on Sally? And of course he won't try to redeem Dulcy so that being her inspiration is a good thing.

And did you see all the people stuck on the train? A metaphor, don't you think? The Ride Never Ends.

This is proof, people!
>> No. 223603
File 139258324633.jpg - (290.46KB , 700x530 , wellthatwaspointless.jpg )
223603
>>223591
>Sonic spends four issues giving everyone their old memories
>The memories are already fading

I know it's out of the staff's hands, but yeesh.
>> No. 223605
File 139258934473.jpg - (59.18KB , 628x569 , hold it compadre.jpg )
223605
>>223597
Wait a minute

>>223591
One post from Ian and this whole thing collapses. Goddamn
>> No. 223612
>>223591
That's still a totally bullshit plot point. Why waste 6 months of our time getting them to remember, if they're all just going to forget?

and let me guess, Eggman is going to forget to write everything he knows about the old world down, despite it being a tactically sound thing to do?
>> No. 223615
>>223612

>Why waste 6 months of our time getting them to remember, if they're all just going to forget?

They were softening the blow. Or trying to I guess.

One could argue it was instead more akin to slowly tearing a bandage off instead of ripping it off in one go.
>> No. 223616
>>223615
It was, because they gave us hope that the characters would remember things, only to go "psyche" and gloat over it in our faces.
>> No. 223617
Is it me, or is Sonic reaaaaly out of character in "House of Cards"?
>> No. 223618
>>223578
Is it me or is sonic really out of character in house of cards/
>> No. 223620
>>223612
>>223616
"Gloat?" No. Not at all. If anything, I had to heavily revise #257 because it was deemed "too apologetic."

Paul insisted they remember. I insisted that having them remember defeated the purpose of the reboot and saddled them with angst and backstory baggage that wouldn't contribute to the new direction and which we could never reference.

Y'all are getting the end result.
>> No. 223621
>>223617
>>223618
Having some trouble there?

Sonic acting without thinking isn't really out of character, but after having Tails give a big PMS "I HATE YOU!!11" freakout and bouts of running off in tears thanks to certain previous writers there are only so many ways to resolve things.
>> No. 223622
>>223573
sally
>> No. 223623
File 139261434388.png - (3.54KB , 157x123 , 1383450247063.png )
223623
>>223620
I think this is the first time you've ever said the word "reboot".
>> No. 223624
>>223620
I think this is one compromise that isn't really making anyone happy. Either people wanted them to not remember at all anyway, or said having them forget completely instead of just partially feels cheap.
>> No. 223625
>>223624
"Not remember it all" or "forget completely"....
>> No. 223626
File 139261841857.jpg - (127.88KB , 896x1562 , tumblr_n0stydLE221rnuk43o3_1280.jpg )
223626
>>223624
I dunkno I kinda like it. It keeps the flow, keeps the story a true continuation of the old plot, but isn't going to weigh them down with emotional baggage forever.

It kinda sucks we can't spend a little more time exploring it, but it's only a minor gripe.


>>223591
But does this mean Bunnie has known Sonic since she was kid this timeline? It's always kinda sucked that she's missed out on that.
>> No. 223627
>>223626
Hopefully Amy too
>> No. 223628
>>223626
>She had her own unique and frankly awesome background with her Uncle and Whatnot, and met 'Twain much later, with the two of them coming from families that did NOT get along

Yeah we'd better get rid of that. It's awesome. Can't have that.
>> No. 223636
>>223628
Someone's cranky.
>> No. 223639
>>223621
But to have Sonic, a General Chaotic Good character, align with a cranky and annoying and downright malicious king makes no sense.
>> No. 223640
>>223639
He's aligning with him because he's trying to bone his daughter.
>> No. 223641
>>223624
Yeah, and to find out its the result of a writer/editor quarrel is also annoying. This whole "They remember, but are now forgetting, so whatever" shit only serves to piss people off. Its just a waste of time.

So Ian, instead of us being frustrated that they remember stuff they can't fix, we're now frustrated that we had the rug pulled out from under us and thinking they would remember for the past 5 months, only for them to lose those memories without doing anything interesting or important with them.
>> No. 223642
>>223639
If you look closer, he doesn't have as much of a problem with the idea of ousting the monarchy as much as the way people are going about it. His very first line is "jeez i thought that dude was supposed to be a tactician, why's he just raising an angry mob?" He then goes on to tell Elias "dude you got this stop moping", realizes Max is a crazy old man, and then tells Tails' family "guys, don't break out of prison that's going to make everything worse, just calm down."

Then Tails punches him in the face.
>> No. 223643
>>223627
Wasn't Sonic CD the first time Sonic met Amy?


On a different note, shouldn't the previews for Sonic 261 and SU 64 have come out by now? Don't the previews usually come around the 12th/16th?
>> No. 223645
>>223643
It was the first time they physically met.
In the old comics they were pen pals before they met, and in the games she was a fangirl tracking him down. How long he's known she's existed is nebulous, but it's generally acceptable to assume he's known her for 4~ years/since she was little.
>> No. 223646
>>223642
Sonic was wrong in house of cards. Breaking them out of prison was the right decisions, morally and in the end tactically.

Sonic may have had objections to Amadeus' tactics, but you can't deny they got results.

And, despite Sonic calling them an angry mob, from what we saw in the comic all that occurred was peaceful protesting and expressing their right to assemble.
>> No. 223648
>>223646
Except you're assuming that they HAD the right to assemble. It wasn't a democracy then. It was an absolute monarchy, as far as it could be seen. The king ruled, not just lead. As far as Acorn law went, even just what they did could have been illegal.

Also, he was inciting a coup, more or less, since they wanted to *force* the king to change their government. Even if they didn't do it with weapons, it could still be treason, depending on how the law works.
>> No. 223650
>>223646
Fighting the new king in s deul to the deatth is generally a bad plan
>> No. 223651
>>223648
Well, I said morally and tactically. Not legally the right thing to do.

You're correct that the Acorn monarchy was not explicitly shown to guarantee the rights of the people. But, I mean, if that's true it's further reason why Sonic should have supported the fight for democracy and freedom.

I can personally believe Sonic actions in the story, he made a bad call on a morally grey issue, but I can understand other people who don't believe Sonic would ever choose upholding the law for the laws sake instead of doing what's right.
>> No. 223652
>>223646
Spnic points out that the problem isn't what they're doing, but that they're being too hasty. See issue 40 for another example of how Sonic feels unfair imprisonment should be dealt with.
>> No. 223654
File 139265320810.jpg - (136.20KB , 608x688 , 123742071251.jpg )
223654
>>223652
>sonic feels people are being too hasty

Not muh sanic
>> No. 223655
>>223651
>>223652
Except you're forgetting that democracy and the rights we expect under one DIDN'T EXIST yet. The whole concept, even the morals, would be foreign to them. Amadeus outright said a few issues earlier that he had "new ideas" that he'd picked up while in space with the Bem. So, the idea that Sonic would think that it was ethically or morally right or even grey is to assume a lot. If you grew up never knowing about the right to free speech/press, for example, you might really believe that printing bad things about a young King was wrong morally, whether or not they were true. He probably thought that supporting Elias as king WAS the right thing to do, not just the legal thing.

Also, remember what happened the LAST time someone overthrew an Acorn Monarch.... Even Sonic would be smart enough to know not to rush into THAT again.
>> No. 223657
>>223655
isn't that literally the opposite of what Sonic is

he wouldn't care if democracy is legal or not, he cares about what he thinks is right
>> No. 223658
>>223657
not him, but what he's saying, i believe, is that it was reasonable for sonic to "think it's right" because of the culture he grew up in, even if it's clearly wrong from an outsiders perspective like the reader
>> No. 223660
>>223654
>>223657
It's almost like this is directly addressed by the second issue.
It's character development. He learned after dealing with nearly the same problem multiple times that it's for the best to see where things are going before acting and possibly making things worse for his friends. The comic drilled this point for years. That, and he'd probably break them out himself if things turned sour.

Implying that he can't have any form of patience or basic intelligence is as insulting as implying Knux can never go a day without being tricked by Eggman. If you go with the idea that Sonic listening or waiting things out in this kind of circumstance is out of character, you're as good as arguing that the concept of him even being vaguely associated with the FFs is OoC. He can't be "my way or the highway" 24/7 or the stories simply don't work. There's nothing Oo C about the guy telling people not to aggrivate the situation.
>> No. 223661
>>223658
This. This is exactly what I'm saying. Is it right by our perspective? No. No, but we grew up in a different world, culture and government both, than Sonic did. He grew up in a world where "right" was under the king, and when the king was overthrown, things went to shit.

(I even drew the connection that Amadeus trying to overthrow the monarchy might make Sonic nervous when the last person who did that--and succeeded--was Robotnik. Even Sonic would want to slow down and think about things then)

Amadeus and Rosemary were taken by the Bem ON THE SAME DAY (or roughly so) as Robotnik's coup. They didn't have the experience of living under his rule, nor the association Sonic would have grown up with of King=Good, No King=Not Good. (I'm super-simplifying things here)

BASICALLY I'm saying that you shouldn't push your morals and culture onto a character that may not necessarily follow them. For a more "real-world" example, you may consider raising a pet with the intent to kill/eat them in a few years wrong, but there are cultures that do just that and still treat the animal as a beloved companion while alive. Don't assume that the different culture will see morals and ethics in the same manner you do, because they grew up with a different world-view than you.

Also, I forgot to mention. "Got results" No. That is not true. *Amadeus* was about to cause a bloody coup that would have made him no better than Robotnik with how he changed the seat of power. HE was willing to KILL Elias, just because he wanted *his* change (note that we have no knowledge if the people as a whole wanted it, just his followers, who could have been a vast minority) at that EXACT MOMENT, differing opinions be damned. That is *wrong*, no matter the outcome or intent behind it. It WASN'T Amadeus that got results. It was Nicole and Sally (mostly Sally, but Nicole woke her, so I give her credit). She diffused the situation and got them to TALK about things, act like adults, and come up with a solution that was more gradual and allowed for both sides to exist. YEAH ABOUT THAT. A sixteen-year-old had to tell a grown man and military leader to calm the fuck down and think about HOW he did things, not just their "results." If not for her, Elias could have been killed and there might have even been a civil war, those who sided with Amadeus versus those who still supported Elias and/or condemned Amadeus for assassination. Changing government is always a big deal, and the MANNER in which it is done is always important as well.

(I get way too passionate about this comic, I swear)
>> No. 223663
>>223655
United Federation had democracy

Sonic's been to Station Square
>> No. 223664
>>223663
And? Americans travel to Japan, that doesn't necessarily mean they understand how rude it is to keep footwear on inside, or start taking off their shoes in the house once they get back.

Seeing another culture and knowing it exists doesn't mean you instantly "get" it.
>> No. 223665
>>223661
To Amadeus's credit:

1) Before he got snatched by the Bem, he saw a prosperous Kingdom of Acorn. King Max almost lost it, but still, things were going pretty well. When he returned to Mobius, he got the summation of every bone-headed, disastrous thing King Max did. And when he tried to talk to Elias about doing things differently, Elias's response was: "Eh... dad won't like that." Elias was a puppet for most of his reign, and Amadeus realized the gentle approach wasn't going to cut it.

2) Amadeus wasn't out to murder Elias! I realize the comic doesn't make that clear - that's my bad. Amadeus was set to forcibly make Elias step down, but he'd never kill him.

I'm not excusing everything he did. The point of the story that everyone was wrong and right in some way.
>> No. 223666
>>223661
>*Amadeus* was about to cause a bloody coup that would have made him no better than Robotnik with how he changed the seat of power.
No that's not correct. You can't just say every kind of power change by force is morally the same. That's a gross oversimplification. Like saying all Freedom Fighters are terrorists.

>(note that we have no knowledge if the people as a whole wanted it, just his followers, who could have been a vast minority)
Even King Elias, who has every reason to underestimate the number of citizens against him, said the protests involved HALF THE CITY. And Sonic corroborated that statement. Remember, these are only the people motivated enough or physically able to protest at a moments notice, logically the real figure of supporters would be much higher.

>HE was willing to KILL Elias, just because he wanted *his* change at that EXACT MOMENT, differing opinions be damned. That is *wrong*, no matter the outcome or intent behind it.

Firstly, their goal wasn't to kill Elias, this wasn't the french revolution, they wanted a peaceful step down from power. If the royal family refused to listen to the people, like we saw, then obviously further steps had to be taken. It was Elias' choice, he held the power, but he cared more about the approval of his father than the welfare of his kingdom.

If you plan to exaggerate the final confrontation as murderous intentions, then you can equally apply it in reverse.
>Elias was willing to KILL Amadeus to keep undeserved power in his family's hands.

Funnily enough his Stonewalling payed off. He was given a fig leaf that ensured not only the monarchy existed, but it had a deciding vote on the council. Pretty sweet rewards for such unethical behavior.


But your second point, that it was wrong because of the timing, is a dubious claim at best.
Amadaus didn't just pick a day at random, they didn't try to change regimes while war was going on, they pushed for change at that exact moment because they were finally safe from Eggman. They waited for peace, and seized the opportunity.

I don't what alternative you're suggesting they could have done. Conducted a slow campaign of dissent and insubordination? We don't even know if they were given the right to protest openly. No way the monarchy would have permitted a referendum. It's like tearing off a bandaid, you gotta do it fast for best results.

>It WASN'T Amadeus that got results. It was Nicole and Sally (mostly Sally, but Nicole woke her, so I give her credit). She diffused the situation and got them to TALK about things, act like adults, and come up with a solution that was more gradual and allowed for both sides to exist.

Yes, Sally compromised a solution. That's good of her. But none of this would have happened if Amadeus and Rosemary hadn't sparked the revolution.

Sally had no plans to implement democracy. She had no plans to curtail the monarchy's power. Not until she was forced to.

>YEAH ABOUT THAT. A sixteen-year-old had to tell a grown man and military leader to calm the fuck down and think about HOW he did things, not just their "results." If not for her, Elias could have been killed and there might have even been a civil war, those who sided with Amadeus versus those who still supported Elias and/or condemned Amadeus for assassination. Changing government is always a big deal, and the MANNER in which it is done is always important as well.

Elias actions also were heading straight into civil war. Taking political prisoners? Talk about mass punishment against those (half the city) who protested against him? He was very lucky that a strong yet peaceful tactician like Amadeus led the initial protest march against the monarchy. If anyone else had been their leader things might have turned violent rather quickly.
>> No. 223670
>>223666
I'll admit. I should have talked about how Elias fucked things up too. I shouldn't have made it out like Amadeus was the only one in the wrong. Yeah, Elias shouldn't have been so... stubborn isn't the word I want, but it's close, I guess. He should have been more confident as a leader and less concerned about his father's support. Though, I should re-emphasize, I didn't say that the OUTCOME Amadeus wanted (democracy) was wrong. (I personally agree; the people deserved the right to have say in their governance) Just the choices he made to get there. It's very much an end-justify-means question. I admit that I'm no wise man by any stretch of imagination. But, it just always felt like Amadeus escalated to force with a speed that suggested that he was more than a little eager to use it instead of more peaceful means. That might just be because of the story format (it probably is just because the comic reads in a faster pace than the story happens in) I may also be due to misinterpretation of intentions, as mentioned in my reply to Ian below

It's also been a while since I reread the issue properly (other than a quick-scan-type of reread). So, my memory may be colored wrong.

>>223665
Ah. It probably doesn't help that I tend to read things darker than they're outwardly portrayed (I figured it was just downplayed because it's still a kid's comic). Thanks, though, Ian, for clarifying. That actually levels things a lot more for me, since I had read Amadeus before as being much more blindly aggressive, in part due to how almost sinister the foreshadowing to this arc was (I remember before the wedding, he outright said that Elias would not have his power "for much longer" with his face in an almost villainous shadow), which soured me on his position. I'll have to reread the arc with this in mind, now.

Though, yeah. Both sides were both right and wrong on some level and in some way or another in how they handled everything. I mean, until the attack, no one talked to Sally, tried to get her to talk to her brother. Like Ian said, at this point Elias was still very much a puppet. The compromise was his first real decision as a leader in his own right, even if he had to be forced into it. Maybe if Sonic and Tails (or Rosemary, or someone else) had gone to Sally, someone who was shown to be able to stand apart from Max and make her own decisions based on what she considered best for her people, maybe she could have talked sense into Elias sooner, had him release Amadeus and have that peaceful discussion much sooner.

And hey. They're both certainly better than Naugus.
>> No. 223698
File 139270510226.png - (109.59KB , 311x350 , implications.png )
223698
So the /v/ is having it's very own marathon now, fun times to be had if you missed the /co/ train a year ago

Also, best husbando strawpoll
www.strawpoll.me/1175916

Vote for Shadow you goobers
>> No. 223699
File 139270629611.jpg - (206.63KB , 900x637 , 39015001_p1.jpg )
223699
>>223698
>Shard, Twan & Scourge in top spots
/v/ has good taste
>> No. 223702
>Spend over an hour deleting cruft from Sonic's history section.
>Try to open Source mode.
>Browser crashed

Jesus Christ.
>> No. 223716
>>223702
The cruft refused to change
>> No. 223742
http://spiritsonic.tumblr.com/post/77049336628/sonic-the-hedgehog-257-cameo-list-please-open

Evan Stanley's full list of cameos in #257.
>> No. 223747
Is it true that Maria's illness was onto a plot element introduced in Shadow the Hedgehog?
>> No. 223749
>>223698
>/v/ is having fun and being civil with their Sonic Marathon.

That's /v/? That's not /v/.....what the hell happened to /v/?
/v/ is all about being angry at everything.
>> No. 223750
>>223749
/v/ tends to agree on a few things, like Sonic. I see a Sonic appreciation thread nearly every day, and each one is civil discussion and not "LOLAUTISM" like you may believe.
>> No. 223751
>>223698
>shadow is in last place
heh
>> No. 223752
>>223747
I have no idea what you're trying to say, but they did expand on Maria's condition a bit in Shadow, yes.
>> No. 223753
>>223749
Can you link me to an archive please.
I have to see it to belive it.
>> No. 223754
>>223747
Sonic Adventure 2. From the start, Shadow's explicitly made because Maria's ill.
>> No. 223810
The on and, probably only, thing that makes me upset about the complete memory loss is that I wanted Tails to whip out his arm-cannon from Sonic Battle and say "I got the idea after working on that robot kid."
>> No. 223816
>>223747
It was a plot point the second Shadow was introduced.
>> No. 223817
WHY THE HELL AREN'T WE TALKING ABOUT X FACTOR?
>> No. 223819
>>223817
Because it wasn't very interesting. If you expected it to be, you're a fool.

That said, the main issue was spectacular.
>> No. 223820
>>223817

>Talking about the Mega Man comic.

We've got argue about Sonic some more silly.
>> No. 223821
>>223817
NOBODY HAS IT YET
>> No. 223823
>>223821
I have it.
Digitally.
Pharaoh Man's great and I love him.
>> No. 223829
/v/'s sonic marathon is on.
>> No. 223837
> W) Ian Flynn (A) Jim Amash & Various (CA) Tracy Yardley

> 'The Great Chaos Caper,' Part Two. The chaos continues! It's hijinks and high explosives galore with Knuckles caught in the middle of all the action! The Chaotix and the Hooligans are falling over each other to get to a Chaos Emerald - the key to saving (or dooming) the world! It's up to Knuckles to power through the madness and complete his own mission, and in his travels, you'll never believe who he finds! Featuring new cover art from Tracy Yardley and a rad red SEGA Variant cover!

>you'll never believe who he finds!
>> No. 223844
>Blizzard Wolfang was the leader of an investigation team stationed at the North Pole Area. One day, his team members were attacked by Mavericks and all were killed, except Wolfang, who was able to dispose of all the Mavericks himself. Researchers who opposed Gate took advantage of the incident and schemed to dispose Wolfang, deceiving Alia into throwing him into the cold sea, making it look like an accident.

Nuts, that's some deep stuff

>Ground Scaravich is a Reploid treasure hunter modeled after a dung beetle, who was wanted by the Maverick Hunters for damaging historic ruins. In his work he discovered a lot of data on ancient robots and Gate assisted him in exchange for this information. When Gate sent Scaravich to a forbidden area (the laboratory where X was discovered), Alia was forced to intercept and dispose of him

What the hell is going on in this universe? I suppose damaging historical artifacts is more of a jailtime charge (remember, they put Vile in Jail), but robots like Mega Man and the like are all archeological?
>> No. 223851
>>223844
I always got the impression that most of the X games were a hundred years apart or so. With X taking place only a century after Megaman, and mega man being the start of the robotics age, it doesnt make sense for "ancient robots" who are only a hundred years old. X6 should be like 600 years in the future, especially since there are entire colonies in space at this time (crashing into the earth and causing global catastrophe too. Thanks a lot, end of X5)
>> No. 223852
>>223851
What? No, no...fuck no. They all say 21XX for a reason.
>> No. 223861
File 139292532496.jpg - (57.02KB , 720x576 , Sonic_and_Merna.jpg )
223861
[secretly hoping for a Merhog cameo in Waves of Change]
>> No. 223863
Maybe I'm reading too much into a cover, but I'm wondering if the shark guy isn't actually a villain. Because the solicit mentions a conflict with government, and to me the shrimp guy's boots look kind of like a knight? To me it almost looks like the shrimp is after Sonic and the shark is cutting him off. Or its just a cover.

I hope we see Ben Bates doing interiors again someday.
>> No. 223872
File 13929320257.jpg - (302.28KB , 737x726 , NICOLE_Smiley.jpg )
223872
I just came here from /v/ after three days of midnight sonic marathon to say, hi, you know. what's up? Cool place n'all.
[spoiler]And if you could point me in the direction of some nicole porn that'd be really great, too. Just saying.
>> No. 223873
>>223872
Boku no Google

>>223863
It's almost like covers are meant to mislead and/or get you to buy an issue.
>> No. 223881
>>223844
>>223851

Shadow Man, SunStar, and the Stardroids show that robotics existed long before 20XX.
And true to real life, the machines and tools made 30 years ago is "ancient and historical artifacts."
>> No. 223892
File 139296276669.jpg - (7.21KB , 252x200 , potential coral.jpg )
223892
>>223861
The Queen of the Merhogs never actually got a name in the show.

Maybe she's Coral?
>> No. 223894
>>223892
Go away.
>> No. 223895
http://www.bumbleking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7400#p386458

Apparently Ian is the sole person who knows what's up with Scourge.

Not even Paul? or SEGA?
>> No. 223896
That's not what he meant you blundering nincombot! You two-bit trashcan! You, you, you disposable dumpster!
/rrrrobotnik

He's saying that anyone who tells you "Scourge is..." doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about. People at Archie know whether the writers are allowed to bring back/reference Scourge and what restrictions apply if so. Nobody else does. End story.
>> No. 223898
>Tyson is nice guy and posts things that may not be okay to repost.
>It's on 4chan so it's okay to turn a blind eye.
>People post it on bumbleking
God damn it guys, at least think things through before you do them.
Not saying he'll get in trouble, but common sense. Come on.
>> No. 223899
>>223898
Archival takes precedence. As for his comments, they're easily accessible on foolz.
>> No. 223900
>>223896
Or, to put it another way, the only people who know the answer are people who signed legal documents saying they won't say the answer.

Anyone actually saying "____ is going to happen" is talking bullshit, because the only ones who KNOW can't SAY.
>> No. 223901
>>223881
We dont send archeologists to go out an unearth Commodore 64s
>> No. 223905
>>223901
...are you equating X - the first robot of true sapience - to a Commodore64?
>> No. 223906
>>223901
We do have technology from World War II on display in museums.
>> No. 223908
I <3 Thrash
>> No. 223912
>>223898
All I said was that he posted the pencils and that they were changed. Anyone can see that they were altered from his original submission. I mentioned nothing about his personal comments and didn't even say anything about where to find it.
>> No. 223913
>>223905
Well, C64 WAS pretty revolutionary as the first true gaming PC.
>> No. 223915
>>223905
>...are you equating X - the first robot of true sapience - to a Commodore64?

Dude, that's practically an unintended compliment.

Fuck yeah Last Ninja. C64 Longplay - The Last Ninjayoutube thumb
>> No. 223916
>>223899
I'm just pointing out that putting it up on Bumbleking is kind of like when that one stupid guy put Zone's Wakfu porn on the Wakfu message board. There's a difference between a situation where people probably know but don't have to act and things being placed right in the hotbed, you know?
>> No. 223917
>>223905
I would.
He's got a similar rustic charm.
>> No. 223919
>>223916
None of his remarks are anything other artists in the book haven't said on interviews before- Cavallaro in particular, I recall, was one of the first to mention keeping things on-model from one artist to the other.

I mean, I wasn't planning to bring it up on BKC, more out of not seeing any necessity. But one it WAS brought up, I also see nothing worth hiding. It's just an artist saying "here, have some pages. I prefer them like this but understand why they changed it. I'm sorry I caused a delay, previous work screwed me. I'd like to do this again and maybe even ink my own work next time."
>> No. 223920
It begins

http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2645
>> No. 223921
>>223920
Begins? This is the third or fourth script preview he's posted.
>> No. 223922
>>223919
Dude you're missing what I'm saying.

I'm not talking about the comments, I'm talking about the "pencils". Some companies are a bit "no-no" about posting pieces/methods of creating the comic without permission. I'm saying that, while I don't know if that could get him in trouble and I doubt it actually will, common sense tells you "hey maybe i shouldn't do that just in case." Just using an imgur link or something or sending them in a PM to whoever asked is probably a bit smarter.

It's not a big deal, but it's still a bit of courtesy just in case.
>> No. 223923
>>223920
...There are so so SO many things I want to question about this thing, but... I guess this has to take the cake:

>Here's where we separate the dudes from the babes.
>You mean the chicks from the wusses.

I'm just....what? Like okay, if you want to read it one way, "babes" is supposed to show that the guy is sexist or whatever, but it's usually used in a positive (if still misogynistic) way, especially compared to "chicks." But then the GIRL calls them chicks as a positive and I'm just....this is bad. Super bad.

Never mind that all of this sounds about as ridiculously early 90s cheesy teen drama as you can GET. A bet? A bet on a RACE? For something that important? This is like the fucking president saying "Well if you think you can do a better job, let's run to the other side of the lawn in front of the White House at sundown, winner takes over the country!" and meanwhile the secret service is watching this and going "Oh no! We better keep an eye on this!"

KEN HOW CAN YOU BE THIS INCOMPETENT?!
>> No. 223925
>>223923
I think you're reading too deeply into his word choice there.
He's just having a standard "booooys vs guuuurls" thing and the girl got a follow-up to a pretty standard comment. There might be some sense of "yeah gurl power" in there somewhere, but you're blowing it out of proportion.

There are way worse things to shit on his script for. Like getting the species of certain characters wrong and writing teenagers like they're over 40 years old. The problems run way deeper than the actual narrative choices.

You should probably list your complaints on his forum or something though, it'd be pretty funny to see how he (or one of his defenders) reacts.
>> No. 223926
>>223925
I know what it's supposed to be. It's more that he takes something that's SO overdone and stupidly simple and clich├ęd and STILL manages to muddy it in ways that boggle the mind. It's like he's just trying to throw a bunch of old tropes into a script without understanding what they are in the least.

And for fuck's sake, are words like "sunroom" and "house" too mainstream now?
>> No. 223928
>>223926
He used "prevue" in the thread title.

...So yes.
>> No. 223929
>>223922
>Some companies are a bit "no-no" about posting pieces/methods of creating the comic without permission.

Who are you talking about? I've never heard of a company being that controlling about page art. They all know that stuff will be out there since artists sell their pages.
>> No. 223944
>>223926
Ken always had to make up new words because English is too mainstream for him
>> No. 223945
>>223929
Somewhat unrelated but hasbro (or IDW) made their pony artists take down any pony fan art they've done.
>> No. 223947
So is cream and Big part of the Freedom Fighters now?
>> No. 223948
So is cream and Big part of the Freedom Fighters now?
>> No. 223962
>>223945
You know, I might could understand doing this 10 years ago, but in today's world does this really matter?
>> No. 223971
>>223962
it was probably porn
>> No. 223980
>>223947
Looks like they're some sort of Junior members. Cream actually makes a fun assistant to Sally, I didn't see that coming.
>> No. 223996
So since Sonic has a sort of Classic Look in Sonic Origins, do you think the rest of the gang will get a modern classic design? Or stay the same?
>> No. 223997
>>223996
He does?
He just looks like Modern Sonic in the preview page.
>> No. 224008
File 139317784661.jpg - (154.35KB , 600x923 , SonicFCBD2014.jpg )
224008
>>223997
Look at his short quills and torso shape, seems pretty classic inspired to me.
>> No. 224009
>>224008
I was going to post the FCBD preview image that shows Sonic very clearly in his modern design, but it was removed from the site.
>> No. 224010
I can't believe Penders is ACTUALLY claiming ownership over Scourge and Anti-Mobius. What the douche.
>> No. 224011
>>224008
Yardley! just draws Sonic like that sometimes. The preview page has them in their modern designs, as >>224009 says.
>> No. 224017
I notice Nicole isn't on the Origin cover, meaning she probably didn't exist then, or at least was still a portable phone-computer.

I really want to know how she was created in this timeline. Presumably the "sent back from a doomed timelime" crap has been retconed, but do ya think she'll still be Rotor's creation?
>> No. 224018
>>224017
Possible. I'm betting that Chuck made her, and then events upgraded her to what she is now.
>> No. 224029
She was created in the same freak accident that created Muttski.
>> No. 224032
>>224029
nicole was created by too much drinking and someone forgetting a comdom?
>> No. 224033
>>224017
Mail-order.
The return of Universalamander is now canon.
>> No. 224038
>>224033

>Pre-Ian Archie original character
>Canon
>> No. 224047
File 139331354671.png - (614.73KB , 1108x1088 , 1393310786366.png )
224047
From the /v/ Sonic Marathon.
>> No. 224066
File 139337044257.jpg - (121.77KB , 1000x1101 , benbates_tekno.jpg )
224066
here I'm gushing over these everywhere else may as well post them here
>> No. 224067
File 139337073845.jpg - (242.06KB , 824x908 , shortfusewip.jpg )
224067
>> No. 224073
File 139337730720.jpg - (418.71KB , 1200x1322 , benbates_tekno.jpg )
224073
Colour corrected Tekno and finalized Shortfuse
>> No. 224075
File 139337781847.jpg - (455.42KB , 1100x982 , bates_shortfuse.jpg )
224075
>> No. 224076
>>224073
>>224075
You are a scholar and a patron of the arts.
>> No. 224077
>>223898
What was it?
>> No. 224080
>>224077
He just talked about how they rounded off some of his chins and edited his art a bit to keep everything closer to the house style. There was a bit of overreaction to it and then it was posted on BK as "Archie messed up Hesse's pencils." It was promptly ignored anyway, nothing came of it.
>> No. 224082
>>224080
That's not controversial at all. Didn't he just do a cover anyway?
>> No. 224083
>>224082
He did a cover for Sonic, he's doing two issues of interiors for Mega Man.
>> No. 224086
File 139341712072.jpg - (1.90MB , 1986x3056 , Mega Man 034-013.jpg )
224086
For what it's worth I think he really knocked it out of the park with the art in this issue. Dem consistent, detailed backgrounds.
>> No. 224087
>>224086
Can we talk about how we just kinda brushed over Shadow Man?

I hope we get more of his background when the Stardroids show up
>> No. 224110
File 13935209997.png - (183.90KB , 915x611 , yo i worked it.png )
224110
So I kinda found a way to do full-article tabs on the wiki.

You just
<tabview>
PAGENAME1|TITLE1
PAGENAME2|TITLE2
PAGENAME3|TITLE3
</tabview>

By setting up false/sub-pages, you just link them together to make a super-page. It also lets you put stuff around it. This should allow for users to tone down on the tabbing on every single page. We can just remove the infobox and intro from each page, make a second page for the second tab, and then slap the intro and infobox on a superpage using the original namespace.

It's worth noting that it's only worth using for pages that have a very small amount of info, since otherwise you're ending up with three pages of the same thing. It definitely works well and should be used for stuff like the Dark Egg Legion and Egg Army, giving the combined page a more neutral name like "Eggman's Army" or something. Whatever you guys think works well.

So just pass this on to a wiki user or the forums.
>> No. 224112
>>224087
Oh, there's no way Shadow Man's done. He'll probably get more to his background when they arrive... that said, Shadow Man's origin always is pretty glossed over. He's an alien, but they never really get into the how why who when where of it.
>> No. 224117
File 139353695476.jpg - (1.60MB , 900x1387 , your money matters to us.jpg )
224117
Well this is a thing now.

The funny part is that, in a slightly different light, this would be great PR.
The comic used to do these quick, one page previews of the next arc back in the early days of Sonic Universe. Adding one extra page after the editorial to each comic for one month as a quick lead in and advertising it as being like "waiting until after the credits at the movies"? That'd be cute and a nice treat to the fans, bringing back one of the two pages that were recently stripped from Archie's floppies.

Holding the previews ransom and most likely using them as a bargaining point for the next TPB? That just makes you look terrible.
>> No. 224118
File 139353978065.jpg - (19.72KB , 242x372 , 242px-Sth-259variant.jpg )
224118
>>224117
They changed #259's variant cover.

Now the train has horns?
>> No. 224119
>>224118
It was a train from 2006, now it's a train from Sonic Heroes.

Fuck those alternate endings.
>> No. 224120
>>224119
I'd be fine with it if the main story for each book was just 19 pages that month and they added a final, "alternate ending" page.
Asking you to buy twice is a really dumb tactic.
>> No. 224121
>>224117
This is terrible
>> No. 224123
>>224120
All it really makes me want to do is visit my LCS so I can read that last page real quick and then put it back.

I wonder if my local library has any comics, and if so if they buy LCS...
>> No. 224129
File 139358986640.jpg - (499.42KB , 650x989 , j200_650-variant.jpg )
224129
Ever since Jughead #200 featuring special story by guest author Robot Chicken's Tom Root Archie has gone a bit crazy with alternate covers.
>> No. 224131
>>224129

Archie loves variant covers. The very small upside is they don't do incentives for them like DC/Marvel where retailers have to order a large amount of Wolverine #9999's regular cover to get a small number of its variant cover.
>> No. 224160
File 139367114694.jpg - (14.21KB , 360x480 , 1393669355866.jpg )
224160
So John Grey and Ian sillyed up the last thread of /v/'s marathon. John drew pictures. A fun time was had by all.
>> No. 224162
>>224160
stupid sexy rotor
>> No. 224165
>>224160

>rotors moobs

I can't escape them.
>> No. 224177
Soo... which AoStH character do you think has the best probability of showing up in the comic?

>Pseudo Sonic
+ already been in the comic before
+ powerful villain
+ hedgehog
- SEGA only wants one Metal Sonic
- not well known outside of older fans

>Wes Weasley
+ has appeared in off panels before
+ is from a species that has appeared in the games
+ unique personality, neutral aligned
- would need significant redesigning to fit SEGA style
- vocal oriented character

>Breezie Hedgebot
+ popular with fans, often depicted as 4th member of 6S squad in fanart
+ hedgehog
+ female representation, in a comic that's need it
- never appeared in Archie Sonic before
- has strong association with dating Sonic (and a member of Eggman's "family") when the comic is moving away from that sort of thing

>Professor Von Schlemmer
+ fits with Unleashed/Eggman style humans with little tweeking
+ mad scientist for good side, could add unique plot opportunities
- already lots of scientists in the cast
- not much demand for his inclusion

>Katella the Intergalactic Huntress
+ leaves big impression
+ unique female villain
- strong association with dating Eggman
- human from space, might clash with Archie canon

>Captain Rescue
+ oddly popular, perhaps due to youtube memes
+ fits the freedom fighter mold, when lots of regional FF groups have become untouchable
- needs significant redesign to fit SEGA Sonic style
- do caped super heroes even fit in Archie Sonic canon?

Any others you think have a chance?
>> No. 224179
>>224177
I want the Intergalactic Cuntress.

Intergalactic Huntressyoutube thumb
>> No. 224184
>>224177
Outside of Scratch and Grounder, it'd probably be Wes Weasley. Breezie could be female representation but she's one-note and not exactly 'good' female representation, Katella and Captain Rescue aren't hugely memorable or interesting, and as you said there's already more than enough scientists that we wouldn't need Von Schlemmer (although he's at least possibly different from the others.) Wes Weasley stood out, and he fills a role that hasn't been replaced much in the franchise outside of maybe Wentos the Traveling Salesman. If anybody were to come back, it'd be him.

Pseudo Sonic's really just redundant at this point, and even with the "one Metal Sonic" rule we already have more than enough variants running around that more would just saturate the whole line.
>> No. 224185
>>224184
But does the comic need a salesman? They have purpose in games, but in a written story with limited screentime, an action comic at that, I'm not sure they're many situations where he could fit into the plot.
>> No. 224186
>>224185
Does it need one? No. They don't really need a salesman at all, and have done perfectly fine without one for most of the games and all of the comics' history.
Could it use one? Sure, why not? It's not like he'd be in every issue, and saying that there could never be a situation where a salesman could be useful or make for a fun scene seems like limiting the stories a bit. If nothing else, Sonic's an action-comedy, and a character who can be funny is still appreciated even if they can't fight.
>> No. 224187
>>224185
Wes wasn't just a "salesman". He was a con artist, an arms dealer, and basically Capitalism Run Amok (humorously). He's a walking talking Mos Eisley. See also: The Ferengi, Phil Silvers' characters, Harry Mudd, Justin Hammer, Phil Silvers' characters, etc.

And I would argue the book needs him, yes. Desperately.

Because it needs non-game NPCs with some history and weight to them. We know the game chars are not just nigh-immortal but highly unlikely to undergo any real changes. There's more freedom with Ian's new characters, but they're SO "new" that anything done with them just doesn't feel very significant. Drop a boulder on Tundra the Walrus, see if I care.

There's more freedom with the non-game characters. Ian badly needs to build them up, including the ones he's allowed use from TV.
>> No. 224188
Although on the note of redundant characters we don't need, I really hope that every region in the world doesn't also have a full team of Freedom Fighters this time around. The Sand Blast Freedom Fighters and Bow and Sparrow's Crazy Kitters were fun, but that was because they were different even just as a group. We don't need a group of bland heroes everywhere we go: no Arctic Freedom Fighters, DownUndah Freedom Fighters, Forty Fathom Freedom Fighters, Substitute Freedom Fighters, Acorn Secret Service Freedom Fighters. Especially now that we have Sonic and friends able to all travel around the world however they place, we really shouldn't go back to tons of redundant teams for no reason but to take up space and oppose Eggman bases when the main characters aren't there.
>> No. 224189
File 139371470738.png - (2.07MB , 1024x1352 , PS.png )
224189
>>224184
Pseudo Sonic is only redundant if Flynn writes him redundantly.

He's not comparable to Silver Sonic/Mecha Sonic, because those are mindless automatons. They are just killing machines that lack personality.

He's only "competition" is Metal Sonic, who is severely curtailed in how he acts and what he does.
Shard, unclear on if he's returning, basically 90s Sonic good guy robot.
And some people might say Captain Metal, but honestly that creature has distinguished himself significantly from the Metal Sonic line. He's something else.

So there are two characters that are robotic copies of Sonic with personality. I think it's unquestionable that Flynn could find Pseudo his own niche personality that doesn't infringe on the other characters' archetypes. I mean, from what we've seen of him in the past it already sets up bits of his own distinct personality. Pseudo is a trickster, he pretends to be Sonic and he fights dirty, he's undeniably evil, but not very interested in following Eggman's orders and a bit of a megalomaniac.
>> No. 224191
>>224187

It really isn't a necessity that Ian go dumpster-diving in a 20 year old cartoon that the majority of the book's readers have never even seen for characters that would have to be completely remade. Wes Weasley doesn't have more "weight," he's just a character you're already familiar with. And if you don't think Ian can create characters you can care about, you're at best doing a disservice to him (and at worst being insulting to him).
>> No. 224192
>>224191
It's no more "dumpster diving" than referencing decades old games that most of comic's audience, children, haven't played.
>> No. 224193
>>224188
It makes sense in universe for groups other than Sonic and his gang of merry men to be fighting Eggman. And it's more personal than Sonic interacting with local armies all the time.

Plus it creates world building, having a cast of actual characters who live in certain regions is much better than Sonic just showing up to Furry Village #1095 - Population: Extras.

Plus in the past they have been a functional plot tool for managing minor characters.
Character X is getting in the way? Bench em on a regional group to help out.
Need some minor characters to fill up your.. say Secret group of rebels? Established characters ready and waiting, no cheap new OC feel.
Want to set up a new antagonist? Jobbers ready to die in battle that mean more than red shirts, but not really important.


Sure, the comic can work without them, but they ain't redundant, they're useful and add color to the world.

And the Downunda FF were great thankyou very much
>> No. 224194
>>224177
He's probably just saying that to make us guess when he's just referring to the fact that Momma Robotnik will continue to make silly cameos.

Ian has openly said no on Wes before. He's really the only character from AoSTH that has any form of presence worth mentioning aside from the major players.

>>224193
Characters fighting Eggman who aren't Sanic?
Yes.
Characters forming "Freedom Fighters of XXX"?
No.

We need more cases like Khan and his friends at Stormtop. It's not as much another FF group as one guy and a supporting cast. We need more things like the Ninja Clans, the Battlebird Armada (yes they're badguys shut up), the Chaotix, and (as much as I hated it in the old continuity) the Secret Service.

We don't need more Freedom Fighter groups, we need more characters scattered throughout the world and more groups with interesting dynamics. Not every group needs to be some kind of mirror of the FFs, you can have groups with only two actually important members if you please, or "non-groups" where characters are generally grouped although they aren't actually an organization. Branch out instead of imitating. That said, it looks like that's exactly what's going to happen in the upcoming Ocean story, so yeah.
>> No. 224195
>>224192
You're right. But I'm not against that or using characters from the old cartoons. What bugs me is people saying Ian has to do it because making new characters isn't as good if they're not from an ancient cartoon.
>> No. 224198
File 139372800729.jpg - (108.08KB , 400x400 , 907.jpg )
224198
So if E tanks are oil, or at least oil-based, does that mean Oil Man is like a field medic or something? Is that why we've seen him actually hit something in a fight.... once? In three years?
>> No. 224199
>>224193
It makes sense for other characters to exist certainly (and I'd love a bunch of colorful 'NPC' types like Unleashed). That's great.
It makes sense for other people to oppose Eggman (although it's not really more personal.) People like Khan, Sparrow, the Sand Blast Freedom Fighters and Knuckles all protecting their homes in unique and varied ways is interesting.

But every region does not need a team of Sonic and friends just because, and the fact that you can throw unnecessary characters together and just call them a new group of Freedom Fighters highlights just how unnecessary and pointless the idea is.

>>224189
These are all great little details, and a prankster not-quite-threatening robot is a wonderful idea. But Pseudo Sonic himself is based on being a) a robot Sonic which the Metal Sonic/Silver Sonic handle just fine and b) pretending to be Sonic which has been rendered pretty much unusable by the amount of times it was used in the comic beforehand (to the point that everybody was sick of it.) In order for him not to come off as redundant you'd have to do the same as Shard and Captain Metal, and change the moniker, appearance and modus operandi to ditch the Sonic copy bit. And at that point, you might as well just use a new character in a reboot.
>> No. 224200
>>224195
>making new characters isn't as good

Don't put words in my mouth. It's not that they're "less good," it's that we haven't had time to gain any attachment to the newer characters, and they haven't built up any traction in the fandom. I'm confident that Ian CAN build them up, but that will take time. In the meantime, we've got the FF and SEGA characters, who are well-established but who he has limited freedom to have "evolve" as characters. Even if Wes specifically isn't used, right now the book could desperately need some older characters that Ian's got a little more freedom to do things with. It definitely won't replace what the book's lost, but every little bit's going to help right now.
>> No. 224202
>>224198

>Is that why we've seen him actually hit something in a fight.... once? In three years?

Oil Man kind of sucks at combat in Powered Up.
>> No. 224205
>>224200
If you're more invested in a redesigned/reworked character who had a handful of appearances in an old cartoon than a new character with a handful of appearances in the comic - you do actually believe new characters aren't as good. You're giving more value to something only because it's old and familiar.

There really isn't this desperate need for them to dig through old cartoons that you think there is.
>> No. 224207
>>224194
>>224199
It honestly just sounds like you want global Freedom Fighters groups that aren't called Freedom Fighters. I mean, whatever, the names irrelevant, get creative.
>> No. 224210
>>224207
I don't want any group that could be just called the "Freedom Fighters of X." I want any heroes or support we see to be unique. Making Freedom Fighter teams for every global region is the first step in a lazy cut-and-paste design method that even the modern run went through at times.
>> No. 224211
>>224210
Pretty much you (rightly) don't want to go back all FF groups being this:

"We're the Freedom Fighters of __________! We're a group of five to six people made up of animals corresponding to the real world region! Our agenda and motivation is stopping Eggman!"
>> No. 224212
>>224205
He's being practical. The book's going to gain some new readers, but it's also going to lose people were fans of the non-game aspects. It's lost lots of cast. Ian can fill the gap entirely with his new creations, and take the time needed to make people familiar with the characters and care about them. Or he can do that while also taking some characters that at least some readers will already be familiar with, updating them and putting his own spin on them while tapping into the nostalgia and familiarity that's already there.

From a purely mercenary perspective, it's a good idea.
>> No. 224213
>>224207
Actually, I want groups that don't function like Freedom Fighters but still introduce characters that aren't just villains. Do you seriously think the clans are just Freedom Fighters under a different name? The Battlebird Army? Khan, Li-Yuen, and Li-Moon? Seriously? Those sound like FFs under different names to you?

The "We need all extra heroes to be Freedom Fighter Teams!" mentality lead to a bunch of completely expendable, uninteresting, and underdeveloped characters, like Wombat Stu, Erma, and...well, really all of the Forty Fathom FFs, come to think of it. Heck, a lot of people forget Bill exists and he was a Grandmaster. Any new "groups" that are introduced shouldn't just be "we're the guys who fight eggsman here". There has to be more thought and care put into it than that.
>> No. 224214
>>224210
I'll grant you that the introduction of most of the various FF groups was poorly done, since it was done in a time when most parts of the comic were poorly done. But Ian did great jobs differentiating and utilizing the global FFs.

I mean lets sort this out, at the end of the old continuity there were only 7 different active Freedom Fighter groups.
- the Freedom Fighters
- the Chaotix
- Crazy Kritter Freedom Fighters
- Downunda Freedom Fighters
- Arctic Freedom Fighters
- Sand Blasters
- Secret Freedom Fighters

(Wolf Pack had effectively changed into a nation, jokes like 40 Fathom and Nerb were only dubiously canon and not part of the modern plot anyway, all others were dead or alt timeline.)

The Freedom Fighters and Chaotix were main character groups, so they aren't who we're talking about when discussing regional groups of side characters. That brings us down to 5.

Now, what did each group bring to the table that was unique?
>Sand Blasters
- the most unique, was basically just a group of villains, Looney Tunes homage, Freedom Fighters in name only

>Crazy Kritters
- woodland based, in conquered land, medieval themed, sworn against Lord Hiss the Eggboss with unique hypnotism powers
Most people agree these guys are cool and unique enough.

>D.U.F.F
- desert based, in free land, aussie themed with stand out personalities like Guru Emu, fighting against a reluctant Eggboss that used to be their partner
From what I've seen, most people seemed to like them, could use improvement but served the plot well.

>A.F.F
- snow based, in free land, no hard theme but characters like Erma and Flip seemed well liked enough, they had a walrus problem?
Kinda the weak link in Freedom Fighting groups, but totally salvageable.

>Secret Freedom Fighters
- a presumably temporary group until Naugus was dethroned, Spy themed, main character leading it (Silver), fighting for a specific goal
I know some people didn't like the Secret Freedom Fighters but I thought they were fun, they expanded on characters like Shard. Dubiously belongs on this list in the first place since they didn't have a specific region to protect like the others.

TL:DR
I fail to see problem with redundancies, they all faced unique circumstance that introduced new plot potential to the books, and it's an exaggeration to say the comic was flooded with these groups, especially near the reboot
>> No. 224216
>>224214
I don't think Downunda was free land, the only city we saw of it the population willingly joined the Eggman empire.
>> No. 224218
>>224216
>implying that there was enough worldbuilding concerning Downunda that there was ever an actual city shown
>> No. 224219
>>224216
>implying that there was enough worldbuilding concerning Downunda that there was ever an actual city shown
>> No. 224220
>>224214
I think part of the problem is that a lot of these groups and regions were "established" without anything actually being done with them. The Mercian group was implied to exist in name with one roboticized monk as a possible example of a member. The Arctic and Downunda regions were bland, no real settlements or structure or anything. The Substitute FFs had lame designs and no unique or interesting traits to them (Hamlin was "the pointlessly angry one." Whoop.) Most of the Sand Blasters didn't even have names or personalities or functions the first few times around, and Erma literally never had a single spoken word before Ian got to her despite having been introduced very early in the comic's run. Take out Sonic and the Forty Fathom were just Mad Magazine fare. The Wolf Pack was sloppy recolors of the nameless SatAM wolves to the point that the stories and colorists couldn't keep them straight, and then Penders added not one but TWO sets of twins to the group and four kids total.

IMO the main "problem" with these kinds of FF teams was that they were pretty much five or so personality-lacking stereotypes per region with mostly uninspired designs who lived in bland landscapes with no unique visuals or culture or settlements for most of their existence.
>> No. 224232
>>224194
>Ian has openly said no on Wes before.

When was this?
>> No. 224237
>>224212
It's a bizarre idea that targets a very specific and tiny amount of readers - fans in their late 20s who want the background to be filled with characters who have never been in the comic before that they can recognize from cartoons they watched when they were a kid.

I find the dismissive attitude about new characters to be equally bizarre. Readers don't need time to know if they like them or not. They can immediately love a new character. Or hate them. Or yeah, even be uninterested in them - but it'll be because that particular character is boring/doing boring things, not because they're new.

If Ian wants to use some characters from Adventures of Sonic (or Underground or satam or wherever) that's cool, but it isn't necessary. (And if the book were suddenly flooded with them, frankly I think that would be hacky and missing an opportunity the reboot has given them to do new things.)
>> No. 224245
>>224214
>Calling the first 30-odd issue "a time when things were poorly done"
>Worrying about canon this much.
>Trying to say "they were in this region and Ian added a single plot twist to their premise" makes the concept of "Freedom Fighters of This Place" a worthwhile concept instead of just introducing more varied organizations and characters.

Listen. The Brits and the Sandblasters were the only groups that were well composed, and they were the two groups that basically weren't Freedom Fighters anyway. The Sandblasters work because Jack is the central character and his buddies are just goons. It doesn't pretend to be anything more than that. The Brits were introduced in-full only just before the reboot, and they were specifically designed to really mesh with the whole Robin Hood motif. The other groups had major problems and redundant membership. See
>>224220

The other groups simply weren't designed to last.
Characters should be given a place in the world based on how they fit in it, rather than creating a place for characters and then half-assing them into existence to fit that mold. You're saying they're not redundant, but outside of Robotnik/Eggman the comic didn't HAVE very many villains for them to face for a long time and those groups made up most of the "global" cast. It's really redundant to have a group that's a clone of the core cast who was /already being neglected/ just so they can fight the same basic threats in a slightly different location.
>> No. 224249
>>224237
>If Ian wants to use some characters from Adventures of Sonic (or Underground or satam or wherever) that's cool, but it isn't necessary. (And if the book were suddenly flooded with them, frankly I think that would be hacky and missing an opportunity the reboot has given them to do new things.)

But Anon. Everything is cool and nothing is necessary.

Is it necessary to make new characters? No, but Eclipse is cool
Is it necessary to bring back characters? No, but Scratch and Grounder are cool

You talk of missed opportunities, but that's an illusion, if the comic was written your way we'd still lose out on just as many opportunities for good stories. And there's nothing intrinsic about doing new things that requires new characters.

So why do you think it would automatically be hacky? Weren't you just a few posts ago insinuating that it was insulting to assume Flynn's didn't have the writing ability to create characters we'd care about?
How is this different from pre-judging that Flynn's ability to create great stories with established characters? You're doing a disservice to him at the very least.
>> No. 224251
>>224245
>Calling the first 30-odd issue "a time when things were poorly done"
You're the one saying they were "half-assed" into existence bub

>actually using "worrying about canon this much" in a discussion about canon
Seriously?

No. The Kritters's and the Sandblasters were not the only good groups. And you have zero basis for claiming Brit's weren't a quintessential example of the old style of regional Freedom Fighting groups.

I mean, you're just talking out your ass if you think there's any good reason why Thorn the Lop or Munch the Rat are less "redundant " than any of the other misc Freedom Fighters. What makes them more relevant than Barbie Koala or Larry Lynx? Nothing.

>You're saying they're not redundant, but outside of Robotnik/Eggman the comic didn't HAVE very many villains for them to face for a long time and those groups made up most of the "global" cast.

The comic didn't need bigger threats than Robotnik/Eggman most of the time. And still, a lot of the time they did have their own villains, Crocbot for instance.

>It's really redundant to have a group that's a clone of the core cast who was /already being neglected/ just so they can fight the same basic threats in a slightly different location.
We've already been over this, see >>224193 The alternate groups had a legitimate function in the plot
>> No. 224254
>>224249
New characters are absolutely necessary. They're obviously necessary. They're necessary whether there was a reboot or not. Otherwise things become stagnant with the same characters, the same relationships, the same ideas.

If a writer's first instinct after being given a largely clean slate is to raid old cartoons for forgotten, minor characters rather than to create, that's totally hacky. And I'm not doing a disservice to Ian because I don't believe for a second that was his reaction to the reboot.

I genuinely find people's resistance to the comic being creative to be really bizarre.
>> No. 224258
>>224251
Maybe I should clear this up.
I'm pointing out that you're calling the early issues "a time when things were poorly done" as if these things weren't poorly done throughout the entire history of the comic. As if the FF groups where the majority of its members weren't a waste of the audience's time were the standard instead of the exception, even in the modern book. As if things weren't far, far more shoddily done for the next 130 issues after those characters were introduced, and as if the majority of the 30 or so after that weren't messy, poorly constructed stories intended to clean out all the book's previous problems.

On the next point, I don't see how discussing how much the book needs a ton of organizations that are just regional versions of the core cast is fundamentally a discussion of canon, or how their location in space-time affects the dynamics of the groups. We're talking about character and group concepts worth revisiting, not "Well but this wasn't in Mobius Prime so it's okay!"

On whether the Brits were the "standard" kind of FF group...what the hell are you talking about? We have plenty of proof: the comic is right there. Do you see any other groups with two major characters, three "supporting" members, and a literary theme between the members and each member generally has a role? No? You mean your average group is comprised of a small set of animals native to the region and only two or three of them actually have any defining characteristics before Ian started working with them? Well then I guess they aren't your average group, are they? They're a group that actually works in the "Freedom Fighter" group mindset because their inspiration IS a band of freedom fighters. Other groups don't work as well.

>I mean, you're just talking out your ass if you think there's any good reason why Thorn the Lop or Munch the Rat are less "redundant " than any of the other misc Freedom Fighters. What makes them more relevant than Barbie Koala or Larry Lynx? Nothing.
Oooh, picking the last minute replacement of an established character and the quiet guy and comparing them with two of the most /exemplary/ characters in all of the Freedom Fighter groups instead of an actual set of miscellaneous members, like say comparing Quail or Avery with Wombat Stu, PB Jelly, or Lyco. You're good at this.

>The comic didn't need bigger threats than Robotnik/Eggman most of the time.
And because of this small scope groups like the regional Freedom Fighters were really redundant.
>And still, a lot of the time they did have their own villains, Crocbot for instance.
You know, it's funny. You say "a lot of the time", but the DUFFs were pretty much the only group with their own dedicated villains. They had Crocbot, and then Bill switched sides. Everyone else had...well the Mercians had Antoine's dad for like, one issue. Annnnd then not really anything else until the Dark Egg Legion. It's almost like the Legion was created to give the groups villains and something to do because they were heavily redundant!

>We've already been over this
Yes, we have!
>>224194
If you recall, we went over this before. There's no real point in creating a bunch of groups that essentially function as clones of the main cast's dynamic. There's no essential difference between Monkey Khan being the protector of his village and having a supporting cast and the Downunda Freedom Fighters except for (wait for it!) the fact that one's far less lazy than the other. One of them allows for a different set of character relations, a different hierarchy, and acknowledges that these characters are NOT equal in terms of importance. Barby and Walt had interesting quirks and made sense as defenders of Downunda. Emu is fun comic relief, but he doesn't NEED to actually be part of their group to serve a function. Wombat Stu is a non-entity, and so was Bill until he turned. So let's ask ourselves: why are they a Freedom Fighter group? What does them being a group actually add? Stu was never likable or important, even under Ian, so why is he there? Why don't we just have two general "Defenders of the Outback" who are at odds with each other and have trouble working together, one of the natives and their friend is the hippie comic relief, and another old friend of theirs turned on them but is actually a double agent? What is actually lost by not lazily tossing them into a group but instead treating them as a set of characters tied to a particular location? It worked out pretty well for Khan, despite how little we saw Stormtop. Works pretty good for Silver, people liked his little supporting cast he was building up.

The point is that the old Freedom Fighter knockoffs were established back in a simpler time. These groups weren't MEANT to last, but they worked well for the stories that were told and with enough elbow grease some of them continued to not be terrible. The problem is that these characters weren't thought through on a larger scale. Their place in the world wasn't considered that heavily, and most of them were created just so the writer could make a bad pun. Where the comic is now, there's no need to just go and create more Freedom Fighter groups. It's okay for the comic to break new ground and establish actual cities, territories, cultures, and other kinds of structures for characters to be carried in. Sticking to just "Freedom Fighters of XXX" is unnecessarily limiting the writing.

There are FF groups that work. Bow's merry band of thieves works. The Sandblasters worked. The one group that comes closest to the success of these two groups has a member that nobody cares about and is generally unliked and unnecessary. Most people would be hard pressed to /define/ the Artic Freedom Fighters' personalities. Most readers weren't sure if Leeta and Lyco were new characters or not when they joined the Secret Freedom Fighters and you'll be DAMN lucky to find someone who knows more than two other names from the Wolf Pack. There's nothing wrong with using the Freedom Fighter template, but it should only be used where it actually works.
>> No. 224259
>>224258
>quiet guy
Meant big guy, I'm retarded and can't words.
>> No. 224260
Ugh, this thread is so fucking retarded
>> No. 224261
>>224254
>New characters are absolutely necessary.
No. If Ian wanted, he could make the comic about Sonic and his game pals battling Eggman for the next 50 issues.

Would the quality suffer? Probably.
But that is still a clear difference between need and want.
We want good stories, so Ian introduces new characters to help achieve that, it's cool, but absolutely not necessity.

>If a writer's first instinct after being given a largely clean slate is to raid old cartoons for forgotten, minor characters rather than to create, that's totally hacky. And I'm not doing a disservice to Ian because I don't believe for a second that was his reaction to the reboot.

Firstly, it is not hacky at all to use inspiration from prior sources to create new works of art. That's just an absurd statement. There is NOTHING creatively advantageous to making a story with a bunch of OCs or making a story with pre-established characters. Quality wise, they are completely equal merit.

It's a bit easier to make stories with original characters, but don't confuses that with the worth of the final product. A story using pre established characters can be infinitely more creative than one using OCs. It's all up to what the writer does with them.

>I genuinely find people's resistance to the comic being creative to be really bizarre.

Because your narrow definition of "creative" is a bizarre distortion of the word.
>> No. 224262
>>224261
>I cut off part of my post
Stupid mouse.

>And I'm not doing a disservice to Ian because I don't believe for a second that was his reaction to the reboot.

Secondly, now you are doing a double disservice to Ian. By assuming he doesn't have the writing ability to make good stories with older established characters.
AND by assuming that you personally know what Ian thinks and he agrees with you.

I mean that is just rude to the max.
>> No. 224263
>>224260
You're right, but we can't have differing opinions.
We must all argue to the death over really dumb things.
>> No. 224266
File 139380621214.jpg - (12.68KB , 173x175 , life of the party.jpg )
224266
>>224220
>The Mercian group was implied to exist in name with one roboticized monk as a possible example of a member. The Arctic and Downunda regions were bland, no real settlements or structure or anything. The Substitute FFs had lame designs and no unique or interesting traits to them (Hamlin was "the pointlessly angry one." Whoop.) Most of the Sand Blasters didn't even have names or personalities or functions the first few times around, and Erma literally never had a single spoken word before Ian got to her despite having been introduced very early in the comic's run. Take out Sonic and the Forty Fathom were just Mad Magazine fare. The Wolf Pack was sloppy recolors of the nameless SatAM wolves to the point that the stories and colorists couldn't keep them straight, and then Penders added not one but TWO sets of twins to the group and four kids total.

>IMO the main "problem" with these kinds of FF teams was that they were pretty much five or so personality-lacking stereotypes per region with mostly uninspired designs who lived in bland landscapes with no unique visuals or culture or settlements for most of their existence.
>> No. 224267
>>224262
>>224261
You guys keep arguing about which is better, you know that they can do both right? I mean, whether AoStH stuff or obscure Sega stuff gets in or doesn't, it doesn't really affect their ability to make new stuff also. We already know they're making a bunch of new stuff.
>> No. 224268
>>224267
Make new stuff and charge us more for it through crappy initaitives
>> No. 224269
>>224261
I didn't say anything that broad because that is indeed absurd. I said if their immediate response to the reboot had been to raid old cartoons for characters before creating anything that would have been hacky and unimaginative. But if you wish they had done that, more power to you.
>> No. 224270
I might have actually liked the variant endings if they hadn't announced them. It would have been more fun watching the reactions to them.
>> No. 224271
>>224268
So where were your complaints when they made you purchase an extra copy of the issue just for a new cover image? People who buy variants have already proven that they'll buy something twice for a tiny bit of new content.
>> No. 224275
>>224269
>Realizing that you have readers that are looking at the door and thinking about leaving is hacky

Okay, seriously, enough. Yes, Ian has MORE than enough talent to make people like new characters. But the book just lost the vast majority of the cast he can really play around with, and that's going to upset some people and some of them aren't going to wait long enough to build an attachment to new characters. SHOULD they feel more attachment to updates of old characters from cartoons? Probably not. WOULD they? Yeah, probably.

You're arguing artistic principles against someone that was talking about what's most practical right now.
>> No. 224292
>>224271
Not him but I think it's a shit too.
Thankfully less of a shit because it's just a cover that is openly shown on your average news site. That, and most of them are shit.

Now we've got actual parts of the story, as small and unimportant as they are, being chopped off and sold separately. Couldn't sacrifice that full page ad for the next issue to make room for the...one page of extra comic that advertises the next issue...wait a minute...
>> No. 224299
I think we need a new thread
>> No. 224306
>>224299
It's too bad we're all powerless to make one. Yep.
>> No. 224311
http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2014/03/03/an-afterlife-with-archie-movie-is-possible-execs-say/
>> No. 224313
>>224271
Cover images aren't a piece of story being held back for an extra charge.

The fact that you can't tell the difference is mind-boggling
>> No. 224427
New Thread:
>>224354
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