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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

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200100 No. 200100
Everyone has a favorite D-lister. What's yours?

I love Wild Dog. He's like Punisher on a shoestring budget. My favorite group is probably Uncle Sam's Freedom Fighters.
164 posts omitted. Last 50 shown. Expand all images
>> No. 218314
>>218313
Oh, I wasn't making a statement of causality. I was making a comparative statement.
They are both bad for doing this. They are equally bad because of their tendency to do this precise thing.
>> No. 218316
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218316
>>218313
Bring Back British Betsy
>> No. 218318
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218318
It's kind of cheating since they have their own title but they definitely aren't famous. At least over here.

Also Haunted Tank and Sgt. Rock since I'm in a war comics mood.
>> No. 218323
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218323
>> No. 218324
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218324
>>218323
He's going to be in Revolutionary War.

Why do kids always seem to die in comics?
>> No. 218325
>>218324
Kids aren't established characters from the current writers childhood/entrenched properties with alot of sales recognition.
The companies feel they are expendable, and often kill them off in cheap gimmick stories they think will be so dramatic it will make more people buy the comic.
>> No. 218327
>>218325
True. It's just kind of morbid.
>> No. 218328
>>218324
Technically he was just rendered comatose, a plot thread that never got followed up on and probably never will, because you and I are the only two who read his mini and the DCU got fuckbooted in a way that was especially hard on "Legacy" characters like Vulcan, Stargirl, Obsidian, Cyclone, Black Canary, Mr. Terrific, etc.
>> No. 218329
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218329
>>218328
Hell the Charlton characters are pretty forgotten. Vulcan might well have been dead. The original Son of Vulcan got to go down fighting in a story by his original creator. Teen Titans was like a woodchipper. There's a reason I liked the cartoon more. Poor kids.

Peacemaker kicked ass.
>> No. 218330
>>218329
His helmet looks silly
>> No. 218331
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218331
>>218330
He had my favorite tagline.

Later Peacemakers dropped the helmet though.
>> No. 218332
>>218331
Yeah that tagline is pretty cool
>> No. 218334
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218334
>> No. 218335
>>218240

Is this STILL going on? I am super not a fan of Wonderman faceheel turn. Also, how fucking dumb was that "I TRIED TO ATTACK THEM TO SHOW HOW THEY WERE WRONG, BUT THAT DIDN'T WORK FOR SOME FUCKING REASON!" line?

Absolutely awful.
>> No. 218340
>>218335
>Is <bad thing making Marvel/DC unreadable> still going on?

Yes. Always.
>> No. 218341
>>218335
It's been over for almost two years.

Wikipedia tells me that Simon came back into the fold, help rescue Wasp from not-death or whatever and now runs PR for the Uncanny Avengers.
>> No. 218349
>>218305
To me it looked like DnA managed to do in Heroes for Hire what bendis tried to do using the name of Avengers. Even occasionally including Spider-Man, Ghost Rider and the like, without keeping them fixed. If the title was actually cancelled, it's a shame.

>>218309
I was gonna comment on how his stories were set around the pet characters and pretty damn bland OCs, but was kinda losing my train of thought. I mean I love some obscure characters as much as any reader, but it just didn't work. Maybe paying more atention to continuity and keeping them in character would help.

>>218288
>>218289
>>218303
I meant both on the power level of the lineup and the threats they faced. Basically the same as say, picking Guardians of the Galaxy and bringing them to babysit Earth or whatever.

As for Cap's kooky quartet, I believe the stakes were lower back then. Don't get me wrong, I mean, I even used to love the West Coast Avengers.

Now, someone brought up U.S.Agent. I never get why writers keep bringing back that douche.

>>218304
Well I wouldn't blame him, googling good pics of black women rocking an afro to trace is probably way harder than resorting to your favorite set of Sandra Bullock pictures.

>>218312
Every mutant team needs a good telepath, though, and when Jean's alive (and even when she isn't), people complain she's bland or whatever.

Ok you know what, I'm gonna be that guy. I'm gonna say it. I like scantily-clad hot slutty ninjas in my comics. Sorry guys, that's just me.

Though I kinda miss classic Betsy in armor, I really liked that armor of hers. And what she had going with Doug back then was cute.
>> No. 218358
>>218349

I dunno, man, I think it's kind of weird and a little creepy that the British woman is wearing a Japanese woman's body and walking around like it's not even a thing.

Anyway, this thread is about lesser known characters, right? Does Machine Man count at this point? I really love that character, and for a long time no one was really doing much with him, but at the same time he was the central character to the 2001: A Space Odyssey comic, has had a couple solo series, a few limited series, was the central character (essentially) of Earth X, was part of the Ellis cult hit Nextwave, and I think is appearing in Hickman's Avengers, but not as Nextwave Aaron.

I haven't read Hickman's Machine man, so I don't know how well written he is, but if it's Hickman on it, I'm not too optimistic.
>> No. 218360
>>218358
I'm not sure I even knew about the character before Nextwave, so I'm not the best guy to tell. But if you like the Nextwave version, you really should check out Marvel Zombies 3.
>> No. 218361
>>218358

That is almost exactly how I feel about Psylocke. I just have a really hard time taking her seriously because she's so...Claremont. She is all of Claremont's worst tendencies as a writer personified.
>> No. 218365
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218365
>>218358
I remain completely baffled by people that ever thought Hickman was good. My introduction to his work was the snore-inducing Secret Warriors, featuring a bunch of Bendis-created characters I could never muster a fuck about, and completely pissing away the potential of doing a full revamp of Marvel's spy-world. Same problem with his SHIELD mini; Marvel has this rich history and tons of characters that have lived ridiculously long or have origins in the past. It would've been cool to see someone tapping into that, mixing in some real-world cool characters, and tying it together with an Illuminati-like agency. Nope, bare bones research and squandered potential. His biggest problem is that he keeps trying to do things that would work well if he did lots of research and integrated as much old cool comic stuff as possible... and he doesn't do it. Like the opposite of Annihilation by Andy Lanning, patron saint of D-Listers.

Man I'm looking forward to Revolutionary War. D-Lister badasses, D-Lister badasses everywhere!
>> No. 218368
>>218358
Machine Man isn't really lesser known. since 2007 he's been a main character in:

Nextwave
Ms. Marvel
Marvel Zombies 3 & 5
(Red) Hulk

Plus, he's had 3 ongoings and was a huge part of Earth X, which was very popular at the time.
>> No. 218369
>>218365
Abnet and Lanning didn't write Annihilation. Kieth Giffen did.

They wrote one of the four tie in miniseries and the sequel.
>> No. 218370
>>218368
Ignore that last part, it was just me not actually reading all of what you wrote.
>> No. 218371
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218371
>>218365
Tell me about it. He used an entire planet as fodder. Then said he will make OC refugees.

Meanwhile Bill Mantlo can barely afford his bills, oblivious some douche wiped out years of his work in one issue. Seriously what happened to Bill was sad.
>> No. 218379
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218379
In GOOD NEWS on the Rom front... HE'S GETTING A NEW TOY.

Hasbro is making a Rom: Space Knight... Transformers Botshot. But hey, at least it has them realizing they still own the character. Maybe they can like, make a Rom: Space Knight GI Joe figure that'd be in scale with the Marvel Universe line.
>> No. 218380
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218380
>>218379
In BAD NEWS on the Rom front... HE'S STILL ROM.
>> No. 218381
>>218379
I want a foot tall figure with articulation and the neutralizer and scanner. Either that or a line like GIJOE size with a bunch of Spaceknights. So want Firefall.
>> No. 218382
>>218380
I love they revealed she can take on their fleets AFTER this.
>> No. 218383
I always loved that the Spaceknights were so diverse in design and powers. Thank god Galador was lead by someone as chill as Rom because an army of cyborgs as strong as Colossus and tougher than Adamantium with unique powers could easily fuck shit up.
>> No. 218393
>>218382
She's a shitty OC that does whatever the plot needs just like the Builders were a completely shitty cosmic antagonist race, hell they were a rehash of the Celestials but even more lame.

Jobbing and killing off the space knights to these wankers was unacceptable, I can't believe people still buy their comics.
>> No. 218394
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218394
>>218349
This armour?

And really don't be that chap my friend, you can have sexy chicks in comics with resorting to turning a respectable and noble lady into a murderous Japanese whore with a katana.
She seems to only be a ninja so she can twist enough to have both her tits and ass on show in every panel.

Is it true she wasn't originally a mutant with her superpowers, that was a retcon made later?
>> No. 218396
>>218394
Yup, this armor, though I recall it being more... purple. Maybe it was the coloring in my country.
I don't know about her powers, first time I saw the character, it was already in X-Men comics, and she had already gotten new cyborg eyes from Mojo. I'm not 100% sure, but I think her other brother had some serious mutant powers, so at least that's a precedent.
>> No. 218398
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218398
>>218360

I did, i like it a lot! I also like the old school Kirby version of the character, I haven't read the Ditko version of him though, when Madame Menace stole his arm and he was depressed for a while. Also he tried to get help from Iron Man, but Iron man was too busy being drunk.

>>218361

Yeah. A lot of people LOVE Claremont, but I feel like he's threason I will never really enjoy X-Men. It's like what Wolfman and Perez did to Teen Titans, it's really overblown, melodramatic, and has a complicated and tangled continuity that's really daunting to even think about, much less actually read about it. It also thrives on shock deaths that aren't actually shocking because they happened before, but everyone who writes the book was a fan of Claremont's/Wolfman's and think that's what this shit is all about.

>>218365

I think it's because he comes up with interesting concepts, and gives the impression that something big and meaningful is happening, but his writing is so fucking bland, people can easily put themselves into it. He also can't write endings for shit, and I don't get why my old comic shop is so into that guy. They got me to read Nightly News, and that was half way interesting, then fell flat as hell. The ending was just so... I dunno, it made me feel like I wasted my time forcing myself to read it. Same thing with Pax Romana. I know I got super bored of his Fantastic Four run LONG before Johnny got a chance to die.

Say what you will about Bendis's writing, but at least he seemed to give a shit about the Avengers and the characters he brought back. Like, I never thought I'd miss his tenure on Avengers, but at least when Bendis used a character he should have really left alone, he used that character because he genuinely liked them and wanted to do stuff with them. Not everything about what he did with The Hood was terrible.

>>218368

He also had a story in Marvel Comics Presents 2010, which is impossible to fucking find now. Alright then, if I can't have machine man, then how about...

OMEGA THE UNKNOWN!

He was a pretty cool guy and i really really liked the 2007 series, which was my first introduction to the character.
>> No. 218405
>>218398
Dude has only had two self contained mini series and very few references to him outside of that in his 37 years of existence. He totally counts.

Also: if you like Nextwave Stack, give Ms. Marvel a try, and if you liked more Robotic Stack, give Red Hulk a try, though Parker's Red Hulk is the better book of the two.
>> No. 218407
>>218398
>He also had a story in Marvel Comics Presents 2010, which is impossible to fucking find now.
A multi-parter, he has flashbacks of fighting drunk!Tony? I should dig it up, here. Not sure if Marvel has any intention to sell it digitally anytime soon anyways.
(Not sure but I think I recall a couple Elsa Bloodstone stories as well, back then.)

As for Claremont... well yeah, it's continuity-heavy and he seemed to throw whatever interests he currently had into the mythos, so it can feel... all over the place. Might be just nostalgia, but for me it kinda makes the story rich. For instance, I'm not sure if Days of future Past, which is a big deal on the X-Men continuity, was published a bit after Terminator hit theatres or vice-versa. And Inferno was around the time of Ghostbusters, if I'm not wrong.

Now about the shock deaths, I disagree. Usually when someone died it was meaningful to the story, and it didn't feel cheap like, say, in morrison's run. Heck even Leland from the Hellfire Club died a pretty awesome death. Yost kinda captured well the feel on his later run.
>> No. 218409
I mean, look, I respect Claremont. He took a go-nowhere property and turned it into the hottest thing in comics. The X-men name printed money for so long, even after his departure, that to this day Marvel still can't quite seem to grasp that the gravy train is over. And that came down in large part to Claremont's writing. He wrote soap-opera style, juggling lots of plot lines and characters, and he kept those balls in the air across an entire line of comics for an incredibly long time. That takes hard work, dedication, and no small amount of talent, and I have no problem giving him credit for that.

At the same time, though, it's very hard to get around the fact that he has some very deep and glaring flaws as a writer. Flaws which are only exaggerated by the sheer volume and continuity of his work; patterns which might go unnoticed in a shorter or more varied body if work stand out. Among the most notable of them are:

1. A tendency towards needless overcomplication.

2. A juvenile sense of 'cool'.

3. A serious case of orientalism, of the 'this is so cool and different' fetishisation variety, especially towards Japanese culture.

4. A tendency to write female characters with his hands down his pants.

5. A tendency to play favorites and heap special status/ability on top of specialness for those favorites.

Psylocke is the epitome of all of these problems.
>> No. 218414
>>218409
>2. A juvenile sense of 'cool'.
It's kinda sad if these days that's a flaw on superhero comic books, though.

>3. A serious case of orientalism, of the 'this is so cool and different' fetishisation variety, especially towards Japanese culture.
That was sort of the big thing when he started, no? Movies about ninjas were all the rage.
>> No. 218424
>>218414

Frank Miller might have started it, if I remember correctly... I know that his run on Daredevil was want initially inspired the TMNTs back in the black and white days.
>> No. 218426
>Claremont did Shock Deaths

While he may have played by "anyone can die" rules, at least some of the time, "Shock Deaths" is going too far. He wasn't trying to be "shocking". When he killed someone, they almost always went out in a moment of heroic glory, or making a noble sacrifice, or at the very least being a badass villain unaware the hero is about to pull a Hail Mary killshot. Compare with... oh... Whedon's "whoops a character you like got killed by a mook," Johns' "I'm going to kill 80s and 90s characters like bitches, so you'll know this is important," or Bendis' "everything Bendis has ever written".

Frankly I'll take how Claremont writes deaths over the all-too-common refrain of contemporary authors that since in real life death is often sad and pointless, it's okay to have characters die stupidly in books too. I read this shit for escapism, I don't want to see characters I enjoyed reading about dying completely depressing deaths.

>1. A tendency towards needless overcomplication.

I'd have to disagree with "needless". From a literary POV, sure. But he was trying to sell a product, a monthly comic. I wouldn't recommend his methods for a modern comic, but for something published back then? Characters like the DC mainstays were so well-established their books could be stand-alone-tales every issue and they wouldn't have to worry about readers wandering away. Newer titles like X-Men had to make sure you kept coming back for more, and the plot threads constantly being stringed along were an effective way of doing that.

It's also worth noting that he clashed with Shooter and Harras a LOT, leaving Marvel when things got bad enough with the latter. A fair number of the plot threads were left dangling or were strung out too long because he was fighting with editorial to do his stories, and sometimes lost.

>2. A juvenile sense of 'cool'.
Subjective.

>3. A serious case of orientalism, of the 'this is so cool and different' fetishisation variety, especially towards Japanese culture.

He also had something of a fetish for Britain. Of course he was a first generation Brit, whose family moved to America when he was three, and who read British comics growing up... but my point is that he walked on more than one cultural tightrope. But the "Orientalism" accusation is unfair. There was lots of LAAAAZY Orientalism in comics in the 60s and 70s, people with a vague idea that "the Orient is cool!" and no interest in doing research. Guys like O'Neil and Claremont Did The Research (at least as well as was possible at the time). And let's be clear here, this was a different era. The 70s and 80s saw Japan becoming the second biggest investor in America after Britain, saw unprecedented corporate alignments between the countries, and saw Japanese companies positioning themselves to be leaders in their respective fields. There's a reason so much sci-fi from the era depicted a future where Japanese and American culture were thoroughly fused: people thought it would happen. These days, of course, we know that the East Asian economic dominance will come from China, and it'll be the triads not the yakuza that one day rule the world. Duh. But considering the international nature of his book (Russians, Germans, and Canucks, oh my) NOT treating Japan like a big deal during a period when it WAS a big deal would have been a glaring omission. And he did it a HELL of a lot better than many of his contemporaries.

>4. A tendency to write female characters with his hands down his pants.
As opposed to his peers, who from the looks of it didn't write them at all, and were surprised to see the artists had added women into the finished project.

Look, the guy had/has his kinks, no shit. He was also writing women so much better than anyone else on a regular comic at the time it was ridiculous. Even Wolfman on Titans paled in comparison. Sorry, but I'm fed fucking up of people that focus on the fact that the guy clearly had a sexual interest in women, while ignoring the fact that he was doing "women as capable badasses THAT ARE ALSO well-rounded PEOPLE" at a time when pretty much nobody else was. He elevated Misty Knight and Colleen Wing from "the girls" into the women we know and love these days. Carol Danvers? He made her cool, he gave her motives and foibles of her own, and for an idea how she fared with others just hang around in a Captain Marvel thread for five minutes. Someone will point it out. Storm, Jean Grey, Shadowcat? Invented the third, made the second one useful and powerful (she was pretty much useless or a convenient hostage before), and Storm he made the X-Men's best leader. To see how his peers wrote a woman leader, just look at Shooter's Wasp. Or do yourself a favor and don't, it's a pretty cringeworthy mix of attempts at badassery mixed with flighty woman stereotypes worthy of Zsa Zsa Gabor (or Rarity the pony, for people too young to get that reference). He didn't just write women that could kick butts and take names (itself a rarity at the time), he gave them their own fears and motives, and basically treated them like they deserved to be good characters. And he did it at Marvel, the company where Wasp and Sue Storm spent their first ten years constantly apologizing for being silly useless women, and he did it beside John Byrne, whose attitude toward women frankly stinks. And people bitched at him constantly in the letters pages about how his "feminism" was emasculating all the male characters, male readers, and probably America.
>> No. 218437
>>218424

I'm pretty sure Claremont was writing X-Men before Miller started on Daredevil. TMNT was indeed inspired by Miller's Daredevil, but was supposed to be more of a parody, and I think it was originally supposed to be a one-shot (Hence the Turtles killing Shredder in issue one). TMNT ended up evolving, over time, into pretty much whatever Eastman and Laird were into at the time, hence the storyline where the turtles befriend a robot with a human mind and go to space.

Also, I want to clarify that I don't think Claremont did shock deaths, but inspired the writers who came after him to do so in an attempt to emulate his style. It's somewhat similar to all the gritty "Mature" comics that followed Watchmen, in that they were trying to emulate what they thought made those comics so great, but ended up missing the point.

Claremont may not have made X-Men unreadable himself, but everyone that came to the books later sure as shit did doing their best to emulate his style which had become associated with the book.

That said, the man wasn't above stupid contrived plots. Like that time the X-Men go into Space and Collossus suddenly freaks the fuck out and bursts out of his space suit since his brother apparently died going into space, while Ororo suddenly comes down with a severe case of claustrophobia. That stuck with me for some reason.
>> No. 218439
>>218426

I never said that these were problems unique to Claremont, or even that he was worse about them than other writers. But they ARE problems with his writing nonetheless.

I do appreciate him writing female characters and giving them important roles and agency; I just wish he hadn't been so obviously masturbating while he did. Those aren't exclusive or contradictory positions. Likewise he was a long way from being the only person to fetishize Japanese culture at the time, but that makes it no less orientalist or embarrassing in hindsight.

(Like seriously, having an upper-class British woman literally appropriate the appearance and trappings of a Japanese woman without taking on any of the culture is so incredibly orientalist that even Edward Said might be a bit shocked. It could pass as parody if Claremont wasn't so straight-faced about it)

Again, I respect Claremont. Almost all of his run is readable, and much of it is quite good. The comics only fell on their face when Marvel misattributed the success of the X-Men to the artists, pulled Claremont off the titles, and replaced him with a bunch of hacks who wanted to be him but couldn't keep those balls in the air the way he had.
>> No. 218448
>>218439
>But they ARE problems with his writing nonetheless.

Okay, but, see... I'm disagreeing. Hard. He could be too verbose, and too complicated, sure. The latter could be excused a bit since it was partly due to him trying to ensure readers would keep coming back, and he had conflicts with editorial as well, but I can agree that those are problems.

The claim that "he wrote women with one hand down his pants"? That's incredibly unfair. Incredibly unfair. It's unfair when looking at what else was being written at the time, and it'd be unfair if his stuff came out now. Half the strong female chars in the X-books (i.e. half the strong women in mainstream comics) are a direct result of his writing. Rogue? He took a character universally reviled for what she did to Ms. Marvel (a character people gave a damn about because of Chris) put her on the X-Men and made people love her. Rachel is his, Mystique is his, Jubilee, Shadowcat, the New Mutant gals and so on.

But while it'd be unfair to say that about him now, it bears repeating that when he wrote these stories Black Canary was macho Green Arrow's arm candy, Invisible GIRL was literally being written whimpering and complaining about the men, hiding in corners while they did the fighting, Wasp was a ditz obsessed with clothes and hunks, and the less said about Supergirl the better. Those were the headline act women at the time.

And the "He drew upon Japanese culture several times, which is Orientalism and bad" talk frankly bugs me. He made heavy use of characters from a number of cultures. He gave us the Demon Bear storyline and made Dani Moonstar a big part of New Mutants. Was he wrong to use Native American culture? Or for all the stuff he did "across the pond" creating Excalibur, Captain Britain, Moira, Siryn, and Wolfsbane? Or the stuff in Australia? I'm not saying it was all done well, but Japan was becoming a major economic powerhouse. It SHOULD have been the focus of several stories in any books that tried to be international in scope. It's depressing that stories trying to tap into their rich culture required a Westerner as a main char, but the sad truth is that even now it's hard to sell stories set in "the far east" or even "middle east" without a Westerner as one of the male leads. Hell, its hard to sell a story about Native Americans without a non-native American. But I reject the notion that giving Wolverine ties to Japan was something bad.
>> No. 218449
>>218448
> That's incredibly unfair.

Hardly. Especially in recent years, few professional comic book writers are as blatant with their fetishes in the stories they write as Claremont is.
>> No. 218455
File 138352368812.jpg?spoiler - (174.06KB , 600x831 , 6.jpg?spoiler )
218455
>Weeaboo
>Into bondage
>Fine with fanservice
>Suspiciously close friendships
>Characters WON'T SHUT UP
>Still writing some of the best women in comics

It keeps happening...
>> No. 218457
File 138352462027.jpg - (172.79KB , 600x413 , image.jpg )
218457
>>218448
>The claim that "he wrote women with one hand down his pants"? That's incredibly unfair. Incredibly unfair.

It really, really isn't.

I can't really comment on Dani since I don't know the character very well. My guy says 'probably' because I can count on literally one hand the number of non-native writers who have used Native American myth in their works where it wasn't incredibly embarrassing. And the man is himself a Brit so...yeah.

I don't know why you think the man needs defending so strenuously. I've said several times that I like his work (at least his initial run, everything he's done since Exiles had been nauseating). I just don't think it's perfect. And Psylocke is all of his worst habits combined Voltron-style.
>> No. 218463
who created British Betsy?
>> No. 218470
>>218457
Your pic's from Inferno, in which Madelyne Pryor was the main villain, and one of the deadliest opponents the X-Men ever faced. Specifically it's from the scene where Sinister captures her, reveals that she's a clone and her whole life is a lie, orders her killed for being imperfect and weak, and promptly learns that he vastly underestimated her. She went on to bring the X-Men to their knees in Inferno, at a time when an effective female villain was a rarity (a time which hasn't passed...), but was also portrayed as a complex and conflicted character.

To be clear, it's not so much that I'm defending him (he was far from perfect, any many of his stories haven't stood the test of time), it's that I have considerable problems with two of your criticisms.

He had his kinks, but they didn't prevent him from being a couple decades ahead of every other writer in the industry when it came to writing women (hell, he had a better batting average than most mainstream writers do now). The trend of just looking at his quirks and dismissing everything he did in terms of writing women even though EVEN NOW most writers don't show them as much respect as he did? That's... really sad.

But what really rubs me the wrong way is the assertion that there's something wrong about a white guy trying to set some stories in Japan, in books meant to have a global scope, written during a period when Japan was emerging as a major power. That's the sort of flawed reasoning that ends with people claiming Avatar: The Last Airbender is "Cultural Appropriation" (or "Orientalism" if you'd prefer).

Saying that Claremont was allowed write Americans and Brits (despite growing up in America) but not Japanese or Native Americans like Dani is like saying Larry Hama was okay writing Americans and Japanese (third generation, he'd never been to Japan), but never should've been allowed write those stories with Russians or Native Americans like Spirit (Native Americans have the worst luck).
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