I FUCKIN' LOVE TITS, MAN. TITS AND ASSES ARE AWESOME.

So Activision is made of dick, big news there!
Gusse Heart of the swarm with prove them wrong. That or reading the history of Tomb Raider.

>>88799
>Heart of the swarm with prove them wrong.

18 months is a long time for them to fark about with it course its likely gonna come from the Queen of Blades novel as a source so they can't muck up things too badly.

Dats Sheet mang, I'd buy the fuck out of any game that's good regardless of main character's gender.

AND OH GOD I WANT BIOSHOCK 3.

Sometimes executives make really bad, really embarrassingly bad decisions. It's not entirely untrue that selling a game with a female lead can be difficult: but it's in no way impossible, and there's nothing saying that it can't be worth the effort. Activision is being especially awful because it's focusing on focus testing (which always has to be taken in context, and with a grain of salt) and actively stifling creativity by making sure what's made is something that's sold before. It's just outright disappointing on every level.

>Activision acting like a cliché evil corporation and doing stupid shit in the name of profit.
>Again.

By that logic Tomb Raider and Metroid wouldn't exist past the first installment. Mass Effect would only have ManShep as an option, Chun Li would not be nearly as popular as she is...the list is pretty damn long.

The problem is Activision being creatively bankrupt. Most of their releases are cookie cutter, licensed games, or things without a protagonist, like Guitar Hero.

To be fair, Bayonetta sucks.

>>88807

>Bayonetta sucks.

Yea but that ain't all she's good at.

The problem is mainly that for a female lead to really sell, she has to be hyper-sexualized. To be fair, the majority of lead males are buff, handsome men with a well cut chin, but for whatever reason that doesn't seem as annoying as a lead female doing flips while wearing clothes that would allow her tits to pop out at any given moment.

A lot of it is that the world still has an underlying view of gender roles, so an average female lead doesn't seem as plausible (regardless of what the plot of the game is).

There are a lot of counter examples, of course. Beyond Good & Evil is an amazing game (if plagued by some control issues and a gimmicky end boss... and a dead sequel) with an average female. Okay, you have the midriff and a bit of cleavage, but for the environment and work I could honestly expect that.

Wouldn't know. Not any strong female leads in games anymore. It's all tits and ass with no distinguishing characteristics, moral choices, or convictions except for said tits and ass.

inb4 Samus. What has she done that sets her apart from any other spess mureen?

For a second I was thinking you guys might be taking this the wrong way and that Activision just meant that a female lead character alone wouldn't sell a video game. Then I read the article.

Way to go Activision proving how retarded you are once again. What the hell seriously happened recently over there that caused them to be a bunch of assholes? Was it the Blizzard merge or whatever?

>>88812
Kotick, Kotick, Kotick.

Now, yeah, you could make the argument that "they're just playing it safe" and "just trying to make the most money they can" and "trying to make their investors happy".

Then you have Bobby Kotick firing women who complain about sexual harassment. And then refusing to payout when they lose.

Kotick is a bitch.

I've played around with the idea of making a game where the main character is an older, married woman. Played from the first person, her actual personality is mostly decided by your own actions, particularly those toward her husband and daughter early on. Maybe have her be a mage and toss lightning and fireballs around.

But I lack any sort of programming knowledge and am too lazy to write a script, so whatever.

>>88810
Not be a Space Marine for one.

>>88816

Okay, Boba Fett knockoff. Whatever Tiki, why do you have to be so nitpicky?! Gosh!

>>88819
They're both bounty hunters in armor, that is the extent of their overlap. Characterwise, they are entirely different.

>>88815
I've always wanted to do a story where the main character is an older woman, just because I don't see alot of characters like that out there in fantasy or sci-fi settings. And not some cougar/milf bullshit or anything like that.

>>88820

When I am talking to you, I will ask for your opinion on what I just said.

>>88809
>To be fair, the majority of lead males are buff, handsome men with a well cut chin, but for whatever reason that doesn't seem as annoying as a lead female doing flips while wearing clothes that would allow her tits to pop out at any given moment.

Probably because those guy characters aren't being sexualized. Sure, you can argue several girl gamers will find them sexy and sexualize them regardless (virtually anything can and will be sexualized at this point), but it obviously wasn't what the creators intended. Unlockable skimpy costumes for them are a rarity, and when they are done, it's usually for a good lol or two because it's so outside the norm.

>>88821
That would be my reason too. It's just not something that's done that much, at least as far as main characters go.

Personally, in the (theoretical) game I'd avoid showing too much of her body, but for immersion purposes, and to keep a leash on myself to prevent my personal tastes from fucking things up.

Plus it'd be one less character design to worry about.

>>88824
You are on a public image board. When you make a post, people are going to most likely comment on it, whether you like it or not.

>>88826
>>male characters aren’t as sexualized as much as women

So what are the androgynous or young males of Japanese games?

Oh, how I pine for a world where well-defined female protagonists are considered a perfectly normal thing.

>>88801
And since I just beat Bioshock 2 yesterday, good lord do I agree with this.
Playable Big Sister with wall jumping action would be the best ever.

>>88833
...androgynous males?

But no, that's a good point, now that I think about it. JRPGs tend to be equal opportunity offenders when it comes to fanservice.

FACT: Only insecure people hate sexualized characters.
FACT: You can make a compelling character sexualized without making them one-dimensional.

FACT: Nobody minds playing as a woman, unless her character is pretty much "derp I'm a girl", and if that's the case, she isn't a good main character to begin with. Knowing Activision, this is exactly what they were going for, before King Kotick shot them down.

Actually, the success and level of shipping that games like Mass Effect have had makes me want to take the Japanese Dating/Sex Simulation platform and use it as a method of developing an female protagonist led action RPG.

More heavy on the socialization/relationships (platonic or otherwise) aspects, with real gameplay impacts. You could even balance it so that people don't just choose the relationships for specific effects, to prevent "gimped" situations. More like 'tactical differences'. Or something.

Though thats mistakenly assuming A) A female protagonist is required for that to happen and B) That western video games don't do that already. Though honestly, the Japanese dating games seem to go WAY more indepth in terms of characters.

Already posted this on /baw/, but it's obviously more relevant here. I'm also going to say I think the article is full of shit, and I don't really agree or care, and I greatly dislike that they're going to try to pin this on Activision rather than anyone else in the videogame industry.

Games Activision has/will release in 2010 not based on a product line (iCarly or Percy Jackson, for example) or Cabela/Rapala (because that's a headache):

DJ Hero 2
Modern Warfare 2 Map Packs
Singularity
Guitar Hero: Warriors of Rock
True Crime (Which has, by the way, traditionally had a male lead anyway)
Black Ops
Monster Jam
Apache
Death Drive

So, lets sum this up, shall we?

DJ Hero a rhythm game, Guitar Hero another rhythm game, Call of Duty -- military shooters, True Crime -- a series traditionally full of male leads (and a dog), another scifi military shooter, monster trucks, a helicopter game, and nobody knows what Death Drive is yet.

Where in this is there room for/a need for female lead?

>>88836
I think a lot of these comments say 'I don't want sexualized female characters' but they really mean 'hypersexualized.' Like, I don't want the camera to be three inches from her ass for no reason during all the cutscenes. But it's okay if she just has a nice ass and the game isn't rubbing my nose in it. Er, did I say that out loud?

Speaking of three dimensional characters, it occurs to me now that a lot of these generic dude protagonists nowadays may as well be generic lady protagonists... it's not like it would change anything. except I feel certain that the villain would threaten rape/sexual assault at some point, you know it would happen

>>88835
And what about games that use real people as models for their main characters like the Mass Effect and Onimusha series? Surely they should be using military veterans or martial artists in top physical conditions for these strong action characters…what, they use male fashion models? But that could be considered sexist if they were women.

>>88848
The difference is that male models cultivate muscles and look like they might be athletes, whereas (most) female models cultivate a fragile physique unsuited to killin folk with humongous swords.

>>88849
But they're both projecting an image and sexualized. One just isn't fit for regular combat but can be written as some trained sex pot out of James Bond or the average woman drawn into some fantastic situation and suddenly they're logical as well. You're telling me that every space marine having a face that would have gotten them laid and an easy life as a singer or something is okay while girls with over d cup breasts is going too far in worlds where there are bio labs designing zombie viruses and I just can't not laugh at the little irony in it. We're afraid of "bad" stereotypes and yet we praise and accept the “good” ones.

>>88850
I was thinking specifically of a female space marine or a character in a non Final Fantasy setting wielding a huge weapon. Sure, a female private eye or a female office peon drawn into a supernatural conflict can look any way you please.

I'm totally cool with people in videogames being pretty as hell. But you're wrong if you think good looking men in games are sexualized just because they're good looking. Let's say you design a woman with full, pretty lips. She wears red lipgloss. That's alright, it's sexy. The sexualization comes in when she sucks on her fingers slowly with bedroom eyes at the camera. Or perhaps sucks on lollipops all the time.

>>88851

or other phallus type objects..like big guns

>>88849
>male models cultivate muscles and look like they might be athletes
The key word is "look", because most of the exercise body builders do doesn't really make them that physically fit.

>>88851
>I'm totally cool with people in videogames being pretty as hell. But you're wrong if you think good looking men in games are sexualized just because they're good looking.

This.

>>88851
And that happens how much outside of characters like Bayonetta?

>>88856
Metal Gear Solid and Resident Evil 4?

>>88856
Dead or Alive

>>88856
It's like how you have swimsuit pinups of Samus at the ends of the Metroid games, but not like... speedo Master chief when you finish Halo.

>>88864
Or how Mai Shiranui shows off her ninja skills by preparing to goatse people.

>>88865
Or how every Soul Calibur game brings Ivy a little closer to having her clothes completely disintegrate off of her body.

>>88864
...Speedo Master Chief...

...Aren't the Spartans mostly machine? I was never very clear on their anatomy.

>>88866
I think that one in particular is just stupid and pandering. Seriously, why?

>>88868
Sorta.

Carbide Ceramic Ossification
* Description: Advanced material grafting onto skeletal structures to make bones virtually unbreakable. Recommended coverage not to exceed 3% total bone mass because of significant white blood cell necrosis.
* Risk(s): Specific risk for pre-and near-postpubescent adolescents: skeletal growth spurts may cause irreparable bone pulverization.

Muscular Enhancement Injections
* Description: Protein complex is injected intramuscularly to increase tissue density and decrease lactase recovery time.
* Risk(s): 5% of test subjects experience a fatal cardiac volume increase.

Catalytic Thyroid Implant
* Description: Platinum pellet containing human growth hormone catalyst is implanted in the thyroid to boost growth of skeletal and muscle tissues.
* Risk(s): Rare instances of elephantitis. Suppressed sexual drive.

Occipital Capillary Reversal
* Description: Submergence and boosted blood vessel flow beneath the rods and cones of the subject's retina. Produces a marked visual perception increase.
* Risk(s): Retinal rejection and detatchment. Permanent blindness.

Superconducting Fibrification of Neural Dendrites
* Description: Alteration of bioeletrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. 300% increase in subject reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity.
* Risk(s): Significant instances of Parkinson's Disease and Fletcher's Syndrome.

>>88868
No no that's mostly power armor, crazy training, AND SUPER DRUGS!

I mean, I understand the audience they're catering to and all, but it's hard to think a character is badass in any way when she's dressed and posed out so completely impractically.

Like, I can buy Cammy fighting in a bodysuit, that's acceptably practical. C. Viper's tit-baring business suit that she fights in while she's wearing high heels, not so much. You cannot possibly look at game art like this and think "yeah, the creators did not intent for this character to be sexualized.

  Well, while were on the subject... Have this.

>>88873
Crimson Viper wears a specially designed Battle Suit for the tournament, developed and manufactured by S.I.N.. When inquired by an Executive as to the reason for her participation in the tournament, she states that she's the only test subject to utilize 100% of the suit's capabilities effectively, and thus is the prime candidate for the field test. The suit is remarkable in the sense that it resembles an ordinary business suit, though two weapons lurk within the accompanying gloves and boots.

The gloves have metal knuckles that can be electrically charged, creating visual arcs of electricity when enough power is supplied; these can stun or damage an opponent quite heavily at higher settings, which combined with Viper's natural speed and agility pose an incredible danger to fighters of all skill and size. The boots hold jets inside the arc between the heel and sole, with a switch on the side of the boot activating the temporary jet propulsion. The boots are capable of granting the wearer a much greater jumping ability, though Viper frequently fires them up and uses them in a defensive kick, burning anyone within distance.

The suit does not provide the wearer with any sort of ranged attacks or abilities in the traditional sense as opposed to ki practitioners who utilize attacks such as the Hadoken or the Sonic Boom, but the gloves (when switched to a particular setting) allow for C.Viper to unleash the "Seismic Hammer," a ground explosion from beneath her opponent that she causes by punching the ground with the glove. This is a very deceptive attack, considering it travels beneath the floor. The Battle Suit does not (presumably) protect the wearer from damage; it was designed for stealth and ease of concealment, not Battlefields or War Zones. s.

>>88875
Oh don't worry, I don't buy that a super suit would look like that either unless the model she's wearing was the only one functioning and was 2 sizes to small on her for some reason.

... The hell kind of super suit doesn't fit itself to the use- Oh... well yeah kinda.

BUT THAT'S A SPECIAL CASE!

>>88876
I was going to go into how it's actually fairly sexist if you think about how the government is forcing her to dress like a stripper, but I figured I wouldn't waste the space.

I'm sure the CIA intends for men to use these suits in the future as well, I can only assume that the tit hole and high heels are crucial enough to the suit's overall integrity that they can't be compromised in the future unisex version.

>>88873

Oh, what? A woman can't show off her figure through three layers of clothing, have her breasts spewing out of the top of her shirt specifically tailored for such a purpose, wear a tie that conveniently draws attention to her cleavage, wear six-inch pumps with tight pants and sunglasses indoors at night while feeling herself without being oversexualized?

You prudes these days, I swear. You just hate working women.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm all for objectifying everything amd all that. I'm sure I appreciate God of War on a level most of the guys playing can't no matter how many topless oracles and titty medusas they throw in, but the official art doesn't look like the creators were ever trying to get people to masturbate to this guy.

...what does it say about a character for whom sexualization is an intentional and vital part of their design?

Or like how Samus somehow loses all her will to look like a badass as soon as her armour comes off.

Maybe dropping that protective, figure-obscuring shell makes her feel insecure, and she needs men to tell her she's pretty to feel good about herself when she doesn't have it on.

>>88864

I'd totally be down with seeing Mastercheif in a speedo if I got 100% on Halo.

>>88887
It's that kind of open mindedness that got us beefcake James Sunderland.

>>88878
Sorta unrelated, but once someone pointed out that her moves and battle suit were a reference to Captain Commando, I shat brix.

But yeah, what are your thoughts on the slightly-more-reasonable-but-still-not-very-street-fighter-y alt costume?

Most video games are based upon acts of violence. In this way we can simulate all the primordial driven needs to dominate, destroy, and exploit while minimizing any of the psychological or physical damage to a modern society. We are beings that like to have our cake and eat it too, more often than not we prefer to aesthetically pleasing people doing the acts of violence. For a male this usually means masculine (rugged) looks and a large frame which fit well with this type of game. As previously stated previously, the standard of female beauty involves particular fat marbling instead of muscle, mammories that get in the way, hips built for birthing and not endurance hunting etc. This leads to a subconscious discontinuity in violent situations where a person knows that a feminine body frame is likely to get you killed.[1] Couple this with male ego fears where beautiful, assertive women can (unjustifiably) be their superior at their evolutionarily selected lot in life, in the process rendering them mostly obsolete, and you can easily see why games with a female lead will not sell well unless you make her a self parody (Lara Croft) to be drooled at. If you make a female accurately weak as compared to a male protagonist, you're bound to annoy the feminists and have to give them their own skill unique skill set that the male could easily have as well if not for the sake of gameplay balance.

There is the option of making a character with a female's body and giving them extra powers, But this defeats the purpose of putting an actual woman in the game, and seems like a social engineering attempt to make women a man's physical equal. I think there a big opportunities outside of violent games where female attributes like cunning, compassion, memory recall, tutoring, intuition, and emotional manipulation could all be implemented well. In many cases, non-violent games it matters not the gender, so there is still plenty of room in the every(wo)man genre.

[1]To prevent the shattering of suspension of disbelief, movies or games creators like to type the girl as a sniper because of superior female fine motor control and quicker decision processing, but usually fail to take into account their substandard visual-spatial skills, particularly inertial estimation.

>>88889
Definitely a lot more practical looking, though I admit seeing characters fight in high heels always makes my ankles hurt in sympathy.

At first I was trying to picture the public outcry if women in the military were told that high heels were going to be a mandatory part of their uniform, but I guess that was silly of me.

>>88891
I can't help but imagine the scenario where all the girls in front suddenly break their heels.

>>88894
I really have a problem with uniforms that require mandatory high heels, any shoe that can leave you in crippling pain if you get stuck standing for a few hours isn't one that your employer should be forcing you to wear.

>>88884
Oh come on. Morrigan is a succubus. Being overtly sexy is a job requirement for her.

Also, I just remembered half of Resident Evil and Silent Hill. Survival horrors get away with having female player characters all the time.

>>88897
I think he's saying more proportionately strong to the men in the game.

Still, it's not like a game needs to be about "tutoring" and "emotional manipulation" to merit a female lead. HEY GUYS, HERE IS MY GAME: PERSON WITH A GUN. IT IS THE FUTURE, RADIOACTIVE ZOMBIE MUTANTS ARE EVERYWHERE. YOU ARE A GIRL WITH A GUN. SHOOT THEM.

LOOK OUT FOR NEXT YEAR'S SEQUEL: PERSON WITH A PIPEWRENCH.

>>88900
That's because women and children make better PCs for game with rape-monsters.

Is it safe to assume that DMC3 Dante is meant to appeal to the ladies?

Or Dante in general?

even I swoon a teeeeny tiny bit.

no homo.

okay, pretty homo.

Shit.

>>88917
Pretty much yeah. That hair and his chest exposure are basically chick magnets alone.

>>88917
Yeah, this kind of lady (check the game she's playing)

>>88881
>but the official art doesn't look like the creators were ever trying to get people to masturbate to this guy.

You're assuming they'd need to. Case in point.

>>88890
This has nothing to do with anything, but the the shooting team at my school is all women, and apparently coaches prefer them partly because they have fewer preconceived ideas about shooting. It was interesting to learn.

>>88903
Yyyyyyiiiiikes. But seriously, in a game like SH you can see how being a man vs. a woman makes no difference in a revolting nightmare when neither has ever even shot a gun before.

>Master Cheif in a speedo.

Time to split!

b-but girls are better than boys :[

>>88922
>complaining about "fat" thighs.
.. rly anon?

As for female game leads, well.. I have no hope for them. In order for a female protagonist to take off, they'd have to get it past The Committee. The Committee will be like the worst partner for a writing assignment you've ever had. They're fat, they're stupid, they're worthless, their contributions are terrible and take away from the essence and flow of what you're trying to write, and miraculously *THEY* have the ear of your BOSS!
You suggest a game taking place in Greece, starring Amazons.
"COOL WE CAN PUT THEM IN HIGH HEELS AND MAYBE CALL THEM VALKYRIES."
You suggest researching historical battle garments of warrior women of the Mediterranean .
"FEATHERS, ZIPPERS, BDSM AND BOOBIES."
You suggest getting some models that fit the ethnic characteristics of the area, historically.
"BLOOOONDES. JAPANEEEEESE."
You suggest something like a hammer enchanted to be exceptionally easy to handle in her grip.
"SHE GETS A WHIP. *pantpant*"
Perhaps the protagoness could come from a good family and just be badass enough to want to grapple with things herself?
"HAY HOW ABOUT SHE'S A SCHOOLGIRL. SHE WAS RAPED AND HER VILLAGE WAS BURNED DOWN? REVENGE!"
Maybe she decapitates a minotaur in a really cool action scene, showing off her skills with an exotic weapon.
"AND THEN SAYS 'GIRL POWER'!"
Maybe she finds some magical artifact that puts her on equal footing with her antagonist.
"WHO IS HER TWIN SISTER. SHE GETS FIRE, HER SISTER GETS ICE. OMG. THE POLARIZATION IS AWESOME!"
Perhaps some wayward god outside the traditional pantheon offers their patronage to her.
"AND SHE FALLS IN LOVE WITH HIM."

I'm afraid any compelling female protagonists are going to come from garage game factories and their existences as female characters will always be sex symbols first and badass maybe a distant second, if at all. J-Fantasy kind of set expectations back about pre-60s level.

None of the games being discussed in this thread are by Activision.

Why does every thread involving a vagina go so far off track?

>>88933
At least we're still talking about video games.

>>88933

I will talk about Activision!

I fucking hate Activision.

In more detail, what shone out most to me like a beacon of suck was the feeling of complacency I got from this news. The idea seems to be "make rehashes of games for our core audience. Any attempts to branch out into something original or reach out to a new audience is VERBOTEN!!". You can bet this ties into the "axe all games that don't have MONEYMAKIN SEQUEL POTENSHUL" rule, too. It just... it sucks. I know all companies are out to get my monies, but to be so cynical, derisive, and so very openly transparent about it just makes me sadface when I think about it. They're like... so the faceless, soulless corporation that doesn't give one shit about videogames for anything but money that it's almost to the point of parody.

And they hold the reigns. They take good writers and programmers that they feed them into their generic vidya maker so they can cough out inspirationless brown game starring brown-haired-square-jawed-space-marine #2403 because that rival company made a game like that last year and it sold well.

:(

And now! On the topic of vaginas. Or more specifically, the excess of female sexuality and dearth of the male type.

I am going to generalize here, a lot. So know this before you reply with "But I'M not like that!", I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about what I see to be the majority opinion around the videogame crowd.

Woman, as a whole, are pretty okay with female sexuality. Thanks to having tits shoved into their face all the time due to advertising, movies, comics, TV, and more's love of T & A, you show them a lady like Bayonetta and 'sexy=sexist' wackos excluded the response is going to be "eh."

Men, on the other hand, tend to freak the fuck out at the idea of male sexuality beyond their own. They'll say it's gross, they don't want to see it, it offends them, only see it as comedy, basically they'll be giant whiny pussies about it. Videogame fans, due to the high teenage boy quotient, bump this up to more extreme levels. While girls will roll their eyes at Lara's ass shots, guys will straight out refuse to play a game full of sexualized men, and that means less money and that means less motivation to make a game like that. Occasionally you'll get a character that manages to balance his male sexuality with his male power fantasy well enough to pass through the radar (sup Dante) but most of the time you're shit outta luck as long as teenage boys are such a percentage of videogame fans. (This goes for male developers, too.)

So basically if we want to see more sexualized males we gotta either
1. Get more girls to play videogames
or
2. Get those guys to grow the fuck up
...Both seems pretty hard.

>>88938
I like the way you put it.

...That's all I have to say on this matter.

>>88938
I think option 2's gonna be more of a problem. Because even if they get physically older, they'll still be whiny man-children until they die.

What about the characters that seem to become more effeminate with every game?

>>88938
Oh wait there is an over sexualized male, the Gay male of course. Almost anything outwardly portraying gay men have them usually as incredibly flaming queens both on the east and west side of games. But I guess that's eye candy that is protected by no one giving a shit unless they were a fag themselves or a woman would enjoy that either for comedy or erotica so OH WELL.

>>88843
Kosh just wanted to let you know that EA actually is working on a project exactly like that. Except probably without the Mech Warrior. They announced it a few months ago (no title). A friend of mine is working on it, hinted it was an attempt to refine the successes of the dialogue system in games like Mass Effect and place them into a social game context like the Sims. Sort of a "Hey let's see if these features work in other games" idea. He refused to get more specific.

Or in other words, we're reaching singularity with Japan.

http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=80450&CultureCode=en

>>88938

Hiw abiut both female and male characters are made more normal looking. WIat, never min. Won't sell, guys want sexy tna as a rule, women are drooling over "bishies".

Money and people suck. That is all.

>>88873
Crimson Viper isn't oversexualized at all. She's just designed to look like a Tarantino/SNK character. High Heels may not be helpful in a fight, but it's just a part of the sharp look the character designer was looking for. For example, >>88889 makes more sense, but it isn't nearly as iconic or pleasing to the eye.

Sexualization in Street Fighter is present, but never blatant. Except for Cammy, but she makes it work. Somehow.

>>88928
In defense of the other side of creativity, let me just say that "the committee" are never the ones dulling characters down and sexing them up. It's the game designers with shit knowledge about character creation or writing who tend to make the "Sex Starved Vixen" and "DURR AKSHUN CHICK" characters so common. Sometimes it takes a guy in the suit to stop everything and say "Hey, this is retarded, try again."

>>88938
Yeah, you can chalk all of the talk against sexualized female characters in games nowadays up to White Knights, insecure women, and self-loathing nerds (like us!). Many men speak out about oversexualized and one-dimensional portrayals of women because they themselves hate it when Men are shown that way. Of course, there are ways of making appealing characters without getting people to feel insecure, but as I've said before, most game designers and writers are just CompSci majors with their hands in the pot.

Pic so related. When you look at all of the stunning and wonderful female characters in this game, you have to stop and wonder why they chose to make Alicia Melchiott so prominent. And I like Welkin Gunther too, but he's kind of a cross between Edward Cullen and Optimus Prime. He's pretty much a flawless human being and leader. He's meant to appeal to you, but it's so obvious when you look at him.

>>88976
>Edward Cullen and Optimus Prime
>Edward and Peter Cullen

>>88975
I actually am a-okay with sexualization in videogames as long as I get some equal representation, be it of sexualized dudes or unsexualized ladies.

Why can't I have gratuitous camera angles to ogle and characters to relate with too :(

games arent really that bad in terms of gender politics, especially compared to other mediums

>>88960
Is that a vampire?

>>88988
No, wai
OH GOD
The vampire's raping the fairy!

Because only white knights could hate the oversexualization of characters.

I don't like it. Especially in characters where it never was strongly present in the first place. Metroid for instance. Sure Samus took off her suit if you beat the game in a couple hours (but who managed that anyway?), but it never was actually part of her character.

Now when people think of Samus they think of a pretty blond chic in a skintight blue suit.

>>88976
Oh, I'm sorry, I always thought that putting a woman in a suit two sizes too small for her bust and posing her out like she's in the middle of a Maxim cover shoot was usually done with the intent of sexualizing her. Now that I know that's not the case, I totally see what an interesting and deep character she is.

And you can't shoulder all the blame for bad designs on designers with their hands down their pants. I've listened to video game character designers do lectures about their jobs and complain at length about how sick they are of having the higher ups tell them to turn all of their designs into swimsuit models in chainmail bikinis. Even guys who seem like they would be totally down with that kind of thing just seem really bored of it.

If you ever doubt how leery guys get about seeing men sexualized, just read the comments on that youtube video of a guy using a jackhammer in slow motion. It's like every man between the ages of 11 and 40 has a goblin living in their room that yells derogatory slurs at them if they accidentally look at pecs and don't actively announce how much it has offended their delicate sensibilities.

>>88996
I just want you to know how much I enjoyed that mental image.

>>88994

Zero suit Samus is no more sexualized than... a chick who is going surfing. What the fuck is she going to wear under that suit?

You can't hold Nintendo responsible for the content perverts on the internet make either.

>>88976
I think a good percent relies not from women being somewhat okay with their sexualization but that it has branched out and mutated into various forms. Girls can be attractive in so many ways outside of disgusting fetishes it’s almost impossible for a female character to be ugly to everyone. Tomboys, nerd girls, you don’t need to put a dress or skimpy clothing to make them hot but it helps.

Guys on the other hand are stuck in a linear hierarchy of manliness with gruff brown haired super soldiers ruling at the top and as the ideal of all characters. The more you deviate from this rule of cool, the less serious and comical you become. Like all the male protagonists of Metal Gear series. The Boss was an oddity in any game much less a Japanese one and yet she’s both sexy and idolized for being written as a woman of ideals while Snake, Raiden and Big Boss become jokes as soon as they slip away from the perfect action stars they’re supposed to be like Big Boss believing in Santa or that mushrooms “recharge his batteries”. We can accept women being different but not men.

>>89002
I've always found it very much the opposite, there is a very narrow range of variation women (faces in particular) are "allowed" to have. Even when you see women in the media who are supposed to be "the ugly one" they're still fairly attractive. (see: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodHomely )

>>88994
In the first Metroid game, Samus appeared in a bikini when the game ended. Granted, there weren't many ways to show that she was a woman with the technology at the time, but Samus has always been a one-dimensional suit of armor first, and a one-dimensional pair of tits the next. I never once thought of her as a decent female character.

>>88996
>Oh, I'm sorry, I always thought that putting a woman in a suit two sizes too small for her bust and posing her out like she's in the middle of a Maxim cover shoot was usually done with the intent of sexualizing her. Now that I know that's not the case, I totally see what an interesting and deep character she is.

They could have made her flat chested and it wouldn't have changed much. Her character has always simply been "James Bond-ish spy-slash-Single Mother", and not "Crazed Sexpot" or anything similar. It was just an aesthetic choice.

There is another way of looking at it, however. Japanese character designers usually use large breasts and wide hips as a way to denote motherhood (like Selvaria over here).

>And you can't shoulder all the blame for bad designs on designers with their hands down their pants. I've listened to video game character designers do lectures about their jobs and complain at length about how sick they are of having the higher ups tell them to turn all of their designs into swimsuit models in chainmail bikinis.

I guess you're right. I just figured that these things work out a lot better when both sides communicate, and don't just shut one out our shout orders downwards. This stuff may really just happen because they think consumers are idiots.

>If you ever doubt how leery guys get about seeing men sexualized, just read the comments on that youtube video of a guy using a jackhammer in slow motion.

Yeah, I was kinda getting at that. Some guys hate seeing women objectified because they hate seeing the same happen to men. Some just don't pick up on the double standard, though, and that's just terrible.

I for one have always loved cheesecake, but that's because I have gay eyes.

>>89002
>The Boss was an oddity in any game much less a Japanese one and yet she’s both sexy and idolized for being written as a woman of ideals while Snake, Raiden and Big Boss become jokes as soon as they slip away from the perfect action stars they’re supposed to be like Big Boss believing in Santa or that mushrooms “recharge his batteries”. We can accept women being different but not men.

I hate Hate HATE it when people complain about Raiden. The only "girly" thing about him was long hair, and everyone's biggest complaint seems to be the fact that he acts like a normal person would in his condition. This calls straight back to what Seal-A-Squid was saying about male insecurity.

>>89008
I don't understand why people hate Raiden. Okay, so MGS2 is the worst of the series, but it's not HIS fault. He acted like any sane person who went in expecting to fight terrorists and got... that would.

If you must hate someone, hate Rose.

>>89008
It's not just the suit, it's how they present her. They've drawn her as a pinup. it's the same thing I'm talking about here >>88885 with the pose armoured Samus is striking VS the pose Zero Suit Samus is striking.

Look at the way actual female soldiers pose for photos and compare it to almost any piece of kickass-gurl concept art. That's the difference between wanting to be respected at the job you do and wanting to sell shit to teenage boys.

>>89010

I have never seen said picture.

>>89011
Never seen anything along these lines?

>>89012
That's not sexualized, that's just Ada.

>>89012

Sorry, I was thinking something else. I'm still being an aspie about Samus. I see nothing weak about the pose she's in, since that's just a picture from Smash Bros. When she's moving, she's still a badass, and you can't expect her to be all Boba Fett without armor, she's obviously going to be more... super spy.

>People trying to argue with a "DURR SAMUS RUINED FOREVER" poster
I thought we'd all recognized this to be a futile activity.

>>89008
>This stuff may really just happen because they think consumers are idiots.
This is what I was getting at. Though it's less a condescending dismissal and more a pragmatic point of view. They don't -need- to make the writing or integrity of the characters more sophisticated than it needs to be. This is proven every time they putt below par and turn a profit just relying on only the most simple, sometimes insulting benchmarks of quality and character integrity.

If the industry thought there were a niche market for female game characters that weren't the moaning mousey things from dating sims, they'd exploit it. They don't, and like big fat pigs, don't see any reason or practical purpose in researching or experimenting. As soon as somebody else does it and turns a profit, maybe they'll take notice and try to capitalize on a proven market. But they're not going to try and create one.

>>89014
She goes from stirking a tough space marine pose to standing leg-up-en-pointe-tits-and-ass-stuck-out. They've twisted her torso to show off as much of dem assets as they can in a single shot. If you stuck James Bond in a pose like that, I would almost bet money people would be complaining that he looks like a ridiculous ponce.

>>89017

Yeah, but that's not how she conducts herself in-game, which is the important thing. They could have Ibuki in SF4'd her, but they didn't. And Sheik either for that matter. I'm only saying for all practical purposes, she's a bad example.

>>89013
Tiki, I'm not sure you get what sexualizing is.

>>89013
Who is a sexualized character.
Sexualized doesn't mean the creators dropped what they were doing and started uncharacteristically jamming the characters tits in your face. It means they designed this character with the intent to make people pay attention to how sexy they made it.

I'm not saying that I disagree with it being done, like I said, objectify shit all you want, I practically make a living out of it. I'm just sayin' acknowledge that it's happening.

>>89018
Sure Promo stuff counts, you don't see them posing out Captain Falcon like this to show off how great his model is.

>>89021
I'm not sure YOU DO, you can't sexualize a character that's DESIGNED to be sexual.

>>89023

Pfft, whatever.

>>89018
I disagree, sir. The fact remains that outside her armor, the Zero Suit is unnecessary fanservice. She's a -great- example, because up until the Zero Suit she never wandered around in a tank top and shorts on the job. Even then, they aren't exactly lace panties or frilly feminine things, they're like the undergarments of a space soldier.

The armor isn't some sort of Space Burqa, but her uniform in the line of fire. The Zero Suit strikes me as a lure to try and get Japanese to actually play the Metroid series.

>>89023
See, Ada is suppose to be sexy, it's one of her tools as a gun for hire and part of her personality, thus i don't see it as sexualizing since it's a well defined part of Ada's personality.

>>89026

What's that Rametarin? You say you're wrong again? Really? Go on.

She has ALWAYS run around without her suit on. And, in my humble opinion, the zero suit is much more practical and tasteful, and thus, a bad example.

>>89025
ahahaha, I almost have to concede defeat on that one.

>>89024
Wow, you don't know what "sexualized character" means.

>>89026
WRONG! First game, you had TONS of codes to get her to walk around in a bikini.

>>89030
He said sexualiZING, not sexualized character.

>>89024

Tiki your argument against her being a sexualized character is that she was intended to be a sexualized character. Think long and hard about this before continuing.

>>89033

What Tiki was trying to say is that you can not further sexualize something that was designed with the intent of being sexual. Her character is one of those.

He's not saying that the character isn't sexual, anyone with a pair of eyes could say that. He's just saying they didn't MAKE it that way after the fact.

>>89034

Like they did with, say, Jill Valentine.

What the fuck are you people even talking about anymore?

Samus is wearing like, a super-spy suit, and is still pretty bad-ass. She is not a good example of a character-being over-sexualized, if only because her under-suit actually covers more than in her initial appearance. Though it IS a little more fetish-y...

And you people, Tiki is saying that the character was sexualized from the start. Being sexual is a part of her character. You can't sexualize her from being sexual, she's already sexual.

If she's posing sexy, acting sexy, dressing sexy, having sex on camera, that's just her character. That's it.

>>89034

Which is stupid semantic bullshit. Who cares if it was added in later or part of the concept? It's not really relevant.

>>89038

It IS what's relevant, because characters in videogames have become increasingly sexual over time, don't be silly, buttface. Just because you're being a tit, doesn't make you right.

>>89037
Perfect, I'm done.

>>89038

I don't think you know what sexualizing means.

1. to make or become sexual or sexually aware
2. to give or acquire sexual associations
sexualization , sexualisation n

With this character she was already sexual. There was nothing to sexualize.

>>89039

Quote the position you're supposedly arguing against!

>Sexualized doesn't mean the creators dropped what they were doing and started uncharacteristically jamming the characters tits in your face. It means they designed this character with the intent to make people pay attention to how sexy they made it.

>>89041

Do you think characters pop out of the void fully-formed? She was sexualized during the initial design process, rather than later. Whoopdeeshit.

>>89042

I believe he was clarifying what sexualizing means for you, because you obviously are lacking in reading comprehension skills.

>>89043

But that's not what he was saying in the first place. I'm not arguing with anyone, I'm just clarifying what Tiki MEANT, not what you THOUGHT he said.

>>89043

Oh see, now I see where we're having problems here. You're retarded, and don't know what we're talking about.

No one was denying she was a sexual character, we're saying she wasn't a previously un-sexual, and then made sexual later on in the series. Which is what other people were even talking about.

No shit she was sexualized in the initial creation of a character who was made to be sexual.

So pretty much, you were wrong, the end, don't bother to post, we already know you don't know a goddamn thing.

>>89029
Yes, she's always run around /without her space armor/ on in the original game if you put in a secret code. And then if you look *really hard* at the pixels, maybe you can see she's wearing something that covers less than her entire body. Except as mentioned above, her hazard armor is essentially her job gear and that is essentially her undergarments. Just being barely dressed does not qualify as sexualizing her. The same as any time during a war a soldier has ran out naked to confront the enemy because of the sudden onset of an attack is not a sexual context.

The Zero Suit is technically a good substitute for wearing cheap Spess Murine skivies, except they ruined it with the way she conducts herself out of her gear. In theory it's more practical and tasteful, except when they fuck it up. Which they did. Which is the problem a lot of people have with it.
Also, if you're going to take that attitude, don't bother with a reply. There's nothing to gain or discuss if you're not going to do it in a civil and receptive way.

>>89046

That is a distinction that Tiki introduced to the thread more or less on his own. Coela certainly wasn't making it.

>>89048

Then why do you care?

>>89047

She walks around and shoots people. And beats people.

I don't see how that's any different than usual.

You know, she does seem to be fighting like she doesn't have her armor on. Which she doesn't.

Aside from the Japanese comic (where, lo and behold, she actually acts pretty girly), Samus has never had a personality to act different from.

Let me just point out, in a majority of games by Nintendo, especially from the era she was created, rarely did the protagonists get any sort of character development.

So she has no previous personality from which to deviate, the only thing different is her fighting style. Which makes sense because she doesn't have her armor on.

Hell, even in Brawl cut scenes, she still acts like one tough mother-fucker, and has a cute side-kick.

I'm sorry, for your argument of the game industry sexualizing characters over time, Samus doesn't really count.

There are TONS of other characters who fit what you're talking about better.

Chun-Li. There we go. There, I named a character who was sexualized over time.

Soul-Caliber, any female character from it.

>>89040
Her worth as a character and entire personality revolve around how attractive she is. That is the whole problem with female characters people have been getting at since the early posts of this thread. She was designed for people to think "Hey that's a sexy lady." In the design process for the character, they decided to sexualize her. This is how she is similar to Bayonetta, Ivy, Mai, and Ram's hypothetical Amazons. It is a very prevalent device used in the media because men like to buy things with sexy ladies involved. I get that, I buy games with beefy marines on the cover because I dig that, but they don't put them beefy dudes in the game because they're trying to sell the games to girls like me. They do it because the guys buying the games think that's cool, and when guys stop thinking it's cool they'll stop makin' 'em like that.

Wait, what the fuck is this thread about again? I thought it was about how Activision was doing it wrong?

>>89051
And I suppose related to that, when the beefy dude characters get too sexy they have to be pulled back from the brink so as not to evoke wrath of the previously mentioned emasculating closet goblins that young men unfortunately have to live with.

>>89052
I thought it was about why female lead characters are almost always doomed to fail.

>>89054

Actually it mostly started with people who know, apparently, nothing about Activision's lineup for the rest of the year, bitching about them removing a female lead character from a game that didn't need one anyway, and then blaming it on her gender, when the developer never told us anything about why.

Hey, in Gears of War 3, Phoenix has been replaced by a chick. Deal with it.

>>89052
At the start: Activision article about why they avoid lady protagonists.

Progressing on: Trying to break down the ways in which big pragmatically sexist developer policies hold back what could be hearty, developed female characters.

Further: Citing examples. Some not so agreed upon, and disagreement about how one defines a sexualized character, and how much it detracts from a character (male or female)

Even further: You are here.

>>89055

And I've been hearing we get some sex scenes added too

>>89057

I read that fanfic.

>>89058

Marcus walked down the dark hallway, his Lancer drawn in his hands as he peered from side to side. The other COGs had said the hall was clear of locusts, but Marcus knew they could pop up at any time.

All of a sudden, Marcus felt a hand on his shoulder.

"****!" He yelled, spinning around and reving his chainsaw like an autistic spanish boy trying to roll his R's.

"It's me, baby!" yelled Cole, whose hand Marcus has felt.

"Damn it, Cole. Why'd you do that? I almost cut you up like butter!" Marcus yelled, even though he was within inches of Cole's face.

"Awww hell naw **** be my kind of ****," yelled Cole into Marcus's face, speaking a barrage of nonsense that not even God himself could decipher.

"You know, Cole..." Marcus started to say. "The other COGs all left to go fight at the front of the hospital and we're alone back here..."

"YEAH SO *****" Cole yelled back.

"Well, I was just thinking we could, you know, hang out..." Marcus ran his giant, hotdog like finger down Cole's neck. Veins the size of rolls of quarters made Marcus's finger go in a zigzag pattern.

"Awww hells yeah baby I do dat," Cole said, leading Marcus into a secluded room in the back.

"Now I'm goin to show you Cole's train if you know what I mean..." Cole said to Marcus with a wink. Marcus smiled, and pushed open the door.

On the floor was a massive train set. There were tons of trains; coal trains, steam trains, modern trains, everything. Marcus and Cole instantly sat down and began to play with the trains.

"You be the engineer, and I will be the train station worker that works the tracks," Cole said to Marcus. "Ok," Marcus said.

"We should load some cargo onto this big train, too. Why don't you put some bullets on, and then I can pretend like you need to bring it past these checkpoints?" Marcus suggested. Cole nodded. The two burly, sweaty men played with trains together, glad to have decided to check out Cole's "Train".

Then they had sex.


coming soon:

Chapter 2: Marcus Explores Baird's "Emergence Hole"

I wish Mirror's Edge was better.

That is all.

>>88965
I could give less than two shits about anything but dialogue choices in stuff like KOTOR and Fallout 3, so I will of course play the hell out of this hypothetical game. I mean, it's genius. Talk about an untapped market.

>I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling execs
What must it be like to have the ability to make arbitrary decisions about game design? All that power in your ignorant, clumsy, blood diamond be-ringed hands?

>>88965

Cool. Lemme know if they need an advisor with a BA in English and a BS in Bull Shitting. No, no one does.

>>89053 >>89054

No, see. A lot of that is from USER INFERENCE. It doesn't matter what the intention is, for the most part, and it's what I was suggesting with the Ms. Pac-Man example. While you're right, and there are characters that are BLATANTLY catered to sexualization, you're always going to have users that take liberties with the materials. You see it with writers of books dealing with their readers, as well, in what they infer from the meaning of the book.

But thats not what this issue with Activision is about. It's about this:

>"If Activision does not see a female lead in the top five games that year, they will not have a female lead," says the other source. "And the people that don't want a female lead will look at games like Wet and Bayonetta and use them as 'statistics' to 'prove' that female leads don't move mass units."

I think that quote from the source says it best. It doesn't MATTER TO ACTIVISION if its female or male. What matters if if what OTHER COMPANIES ARE DOING ARE SELLING. If all top 5 games were staring Bannanas in Pajamas, they'd make them their lead. If all 5 lowest were staring beefy space marines, they'd use that as an example as why beefy space marines never sell.

It's not about gender; It's about corperate buisness mentality trumping entertainment development ideals.

Why are you people arguing about this when pretty much every party has stated that they don't really give a shit?

  I think this is fairly relevant.

>>89071

Some folks not caring doesn't address the concerns overall.

Some Africans were ok with being slaves.

inb4 "you can't compare girls in video games to slaves"

>>89073
Saying "inb4 the complaint" doesn't address the complaint.

inb4 "that's the joke.jpg"

>>88996
>If you ever doubt how leery guys get about seeing men sexualized, just read the comments on that youtube video of a guy using a jackhammer in slow motion. It's like every man between the ages of 11 and 40 has a goblin living in their room that yells derogatory slurs at them if they accidentally look at pecs and don't actively announce how much it has offended their delicate sensibilities.

Just to let you know I looked that up.
I am disappoint.

>>89067
I'm sorry but you are pretty fucking blind if you don't believe that developers use sex to sell female characters. Of course people run rampant with it after the material is out on shelves, but I can't see how you can deny that the creators of stuff like this completely pander to it.

>>89077
Yeah, seriously. The woman is always the sexy one, and always wearing less than her male counterparts, no exceptions. Okay, rare exceptions. Like 3, tops.

Just because they're characters you like doesn't make them not sexualized for guy convenience.

And again, I don't think there's anything wrong with them being made sexy in the first place. I just want some equality here.

I feel old school Adventure Games did a much better job with female protagonist than modern games and their handling of females in general was pretty good.

>>89080

I can't even name 3.

>>89080
There is, they are called the gay/effeminate man or joke characters because the only time a man would care about looking good is if they were playing a character in a game or homosexual.

>>89077
>I'm sorry but you are pretty fucking blind if you don't believe that developers use sex to sell female characters.

*cough*
>>89067
>While you're right, and there are characters that are BLATANTLY catered to sexualization...

*cough cough cough*

When every woman is sexualized... then none of them will be.

sorry. Thought it was apt.

This is why I hate threads like these. They always seem to boil down to "Only women can be sexualized. Only woman can be objectified. Any unrealistic body image is bad, but only when it applies to women." It ultimately doesn't matter what a woman in fiction is wearing or how she's acting, so long as she's visibly female in any way, it's sexist somehow.

You can look no further than the Wonder Twins. They wear the exact same costume, the girl is the smarter one with the cooler powers (in use if not in theory), and she's still sexist because hey, girl in skintight clothing! It doesn't matter how badass or accomplished a character is anymore. If they show even the slightest bit of sexuality, they're thrown in the trash heap.

You want to talk about Zero Mission? I wasn't all HUR HUR SAMUS IS IN HER UNDIES I BETTER MASTURBATE NOW. I was more "Oh SHIT I have no power armor I need to not get killed by space pirates." But hey, thanks for assuming all men are perverts that think of nothing but sex at all times.

Also, Samus rides around in a 2000 pound war machine. Do we know how climate controlled that thing is? Because I'd imagine it would get hot inside. We don't know what Master Chief wears under his armor, but comparatively, Iron Man often wears just a pan speedo or a skintight latex suit.

Why do these threads always hav a n undertone of "Only Men Are Sexist. All men think exactly the same. Women don't." I mean, frankly, fine. I can bear that cross, except that it comes with the collar that "Only women are victims of sexism."

You know what? I will never be as pretty as Edward Cullen OR as muscular as Ken Masters. Hell, the closest I'll get is Rufus. At BEST. Where's MY 100+ posts defending me? Or do I not get one since I was born with a penis and thus in a seat of privilege that negates my ability to have an opinion.

Ryu shows more flesh than Crimson Viper. He always has.

BUT THAT'S DIFFERENT.

>>89092

>BUT THAT'S DIFFERENT.

Yes, it is.

>>89092
>It ultimately doesn't matter what a woman in fiction is wearing or how she's acting, so long as she's visibly female in any way, it's sexist somehow

I still argue its less about that and the debate between "obvious sexualisation" and "infered sexualization", and more about corperate profit mentality in terms of producing entertainment.

At least in terms of the OP link. And frankly, thats harder to fight.

>>89097
The Activision thing is, definitely. Activision's library is full of generic stuff. They thrive on the concept of the Ageless, Faceless, Gender-Neutral, Culturally Ambiguous Adventure Person when it comes to their player characters. Problem is this does often translate into a generic cookie cutter space marine. Or a generic cookie cutter dirty harry style cop. Or a generic karate guy. Or, their personal favorite, generic world war two soldier. It's one of those things that has the intent of making it so that the player can identify with the character, but without putting a lot of effort into customization it just results in a playable standee.

But you know what? That's just what it is. It's generic. It's boring. And ultimately, that means they make a lot of games with forgettable stories and characters.

>>89100

And it'll sell. Thats what it translates to. Cliches are cliches for a reason, so the cliched sterotypes work for when you're delivering video games as 'MARKETABLE PRODUCT' rather than 'ARTISTIC ENTERTAINMENT'. Which the douche producer thread represents pretty well.

While the sexualization sells, its more about the fact that it SELLS rather than sexualization itself, in their eyes.

>>89093
This is what idiots and feminazis actually believe.

>>89072
While most of this video makes sense...
>Girls, it is your responsibility to socialize awkward male nerds
HAHAHA no.

>>89109
I'm pretty sure his point was just that the guys are pretty much powerless with regards to the whole virtual tits thing.

You know what, fuck you guys, I do think Pierce Brosnan is sexy as James Bond.

>>89092
Like I've been saying through the whole thread, it's not the costume, it's the presentation. Protagonists as a rule are generally attractive people, but with guys you see a wide gammut of like, the hot guy, the fat gut, the goofy guy, the old guy. If you can't be a Leonardo DiCaprio or a Sylvester Stallone, maybe you can be a Bill Murray or a Danny DeVito. When they add a girl to the cast in just about any form of media, she will almost certainly be hot and the likelihood of seeing her posed out like she's going to be in an upcoming sports illustrated swimsuit edition will be quite high. It is difficult to find female equivalents to the Steve Buscemis and Dan Akroyds of the world.

I'm not saying I think it should stop happening, nothing wrong with wanting to look at sexy people, I just think that it's always going to hinder the potential to make interesting female characters if designers have to actively fight to make them look and act like respectable soldiers and not sexpots and pinup models.

>>89118
>implying writers need particular character designs to do their jobs correctly
0/10

There's no excuse for boring characters. If they're boring, you fucked up.

>>89120
In a visual medium the visuals will effect the finished product, yes.

I work as a character designer. When I design a goofy looking guy, they approve it, when I draw a goofy looking lady, they tell me to make it sexy. Video game character designers I talk to say when they draw a sexy lady, it gets approved, when they draw a practical looking lady, they're told to make it sexy. This is the general fact of the matter in the business of character design. Paul Verhoeven says in the Robocop commentary that he had to fight the producers to have Lewis look like a real policewoman, because they wanted a model with long blonde hair she could shake out when she took her helmet off. If a female character in a story is not conventionally pretty, they will almost always dedicate some amount of time in the story to remarking on what a novelty it is (The line "there is nothing more unfortunate than an ugly woman" stands out in particular in my mind). How attractive a female character is will almost always come under scrutiny because the universe is one big tits or GTFO.

Sexy women and regular women and ugly women alike can be equally well written, my problem is just that in almost every occasion they only let you make the sexy ones. Women are only allowed to be one thing and it's always boring when everything has to be one thing.

>>89120
....

>>89092

being sexualised doesnt really enter into masculism, negative representations for men are more to with assumption that all men are sex crazed and power hungry, that every man should and would become rape emperor if he were allowed.

>>89122
>>It is difficult to find female equivalents to the Steve Buscemis and Dan Akroyds

Maria Bamford, Ellen Degeneres, Rosanne Barr, Chelsea Handler, Wanda Sykes, Jane Curtin, Amy Poehler, Cheri O'Teri, Molly Shannon, Julia Luis Dreyfus, Margret Cho, Julia Louis Dreyfus (kind of belongs here, if only that she's talented) etc etc etc.

Though, none of them are downright ugly like Buscemis, but most of them are pretty goofy-looking like Akroyd. But, they're all hilarious, and pretty great.

Unfortunately, most of the women I named don't get the same opportunities for movies and shows and such as Male Comedians/Actors, for whatever reason, but they're all funny.

>>It is difficult to find female equivalents to the Steve Buscemis and Dan Akroyds

>>Unfortunately, most of the women I named don't get the same opportunities for movies and shows and such as Male Comedians/Actors, for whatever reason

>>89127
That's my point, they aren't equivalent because they don't get the same opportunities and exposure. Save rare exceptions, outside of standup comedy the best they can hope to achieve is flash-in-the-pan success. At the same time, there never seems to be a shortage of "dumpy comedian with a hot wife"sitcoms, that's been the tried and true formula since like, the Honeymooners.

And if you're going to equate women like Margret Cho to men like Steve Buscemi, then you are making the perfect example of how little a woman is allowed to deviate from the norm before people start thinking she looks "goofy".

>>89131

Margaret Cho is Vietnamese, and is, by birthright, goofy looking.

>>89131

I said none of them are anywhere near as ugly as Steve Buscemis! Goofy looking doesn't exactly make them undesirable either.

>>89134
But you presented them as equivalents, which I do not believe they are.

But back on topic, I cannot stress enough that my problem is not with female characters being objectified, the problem is that people have to fight tooth and nail if they want to make a game about a lady soldier who looks and acts in a manner practical and becoming of a soldier. And even if they do get to make it, there's a good chance you'll see a lot more in-game fanservice with her than you would with a male equivalent. Of course there are always exceptions and qualifiers, but more often than not that is how it works.

oprah is ugly as sin and shes bigger than jesus this tangent is dumb and irrelevant

>>89136

I meant in terms of comedy.

But I see your point.

>>89136

to be fair there arent any games where the men behave like real soldiers either

i still laugh whenever i think of gears of war's cast

The reason there never seems to be a shortage of "dumpy comedian with a hot wife" sitcoms is because said comedians are the head writers, if not producers of those sitcoms. It's a wish fufillment on their part that they have a hot TV wife.

Yes, guys like Steve Buschemi can look like they do and still have really successful careers in hollywood. But look at the kind of roles Bushemi has played. He's played rapists, serial killers and the like. Even when heroic his characters are a little on the sleazy side.

Why? Because in fiction, beauty equals goodness. So someone with Buschemi's look is never going to be perfectly virtuous or good. Similarly, Akroyd is goofy looking, and that damn well pigenholes the roles he can play as well. The fact that your look limits the kind of roles you can play applies to both men and women. It's a chicken and egg thing. The looks need to fit the characters but the characters can't be subverted successfully enough to mandate a change in look. The closest anyone gets is like...Will Ferrel. How sad is that?

And really, no one in fiction acts like the real thing. My brother is in the navy. We play stuff like Halo or Call of Duty and laugh our asses off about how unrealistic even the most realistic war games are.

>>89141
Actually, those sitcoms are a product of changing gender roles. A sort of ham-handed attempt at creating intelligent, likable female characters. Their husbands are usually chauvinistic, fat, stupid foils, and half of the plots of these shows are about them fucking things up and Mrs. Hotwife fixing everything with her patented Girl-Powered© female brain. It's sort of like the Action Girl, in that she is a failed attempt to create a positive female character. Instead of empowering the women who see her and changing the minds of old fashioned men, she simply embodies another ridiculously high standard for women.

For all it's faults, Roseanne was not only one of the only sitcoms in which the Matriarch was allowed to be less-than-perfect, but one of the only real examples of a decent post-gender (I have no better term) marriage.

>>89141
>The fact that your look limits the kind of roles you can play applies to both men and women
Except while dumpy, ugly men can get comedy/creeper roles dumpy, ugly women can get... no roles at all.

Seriously, the only woman I can think of in Hollywood who is not pretty is like... Tilda Swinton. And she had to be one of the best actresses ever to get in there.

>>89146
Tilda Swinton isn't ugly!

And the worst offenders I can find for women are Kristen Schaal, Kate Miccuci, Monique, Conchata Ferrell, and Jane Adams. Even then, they're at least kinda cute.

Then again, I have pervert eyes. All women look great to me.

>>89147
>Tilda Swinton isn't ugly!

Moe, I love you.

>>89139 >>89141
You're missing the point, there's a difference between "angry Space Marine" fantasy and "I fight zombies in a halter top and high heels" fantasy.

What I'm saying regarding guys like Buscemi is that in the media men can be a full spectrum of absolutely gorgeous to downright ugly and still have long, successful careers and appear as main characters in well known movies. There is no place in the media to that scale for women who are legitimately ugly, even as bad guys and schemers. I believe David Spade did a monologue once on how the bar set the way it is makes even the standards for ugly out of reach.

Guys like Adrian Brody (whether or not you find him attractive you have to admit he is pretty distinct looking) get to be big budget summer blockbuster action movie leading men, there is such a staggering discrepancy between the spectrum of aesthetics in male stars VS female stars I cannot believe anyone would even argue otherwise.

It's not even a tangent, I'm flat out saying, I wish women could have as much variety in the media as men do, and I wish men could handle seeing other men sexualized without getting leery and needing to whine about how "gay" it is.

I really don't know what else I can say, because you guys just completely don't get it.

>>89150
Aren't genda' roles tha worst?

This sort of thing is common in every single corner of our society, but nobody is willing to fight it. Not even the people it holds back.

I, for one, would like to wear skirts in public.

>>89153
Have at it.

>>89136

If female soldiers want to be treated as equals, they had better start dying more often.

>>89136
>people have to fight tooth and nail if they want to make a game about a lady soldier who looks and acts in a manner practical and becoming of a soldier

Right, and you hit it on the nail when you used the phrase "that's been the tried and true formula". It's less about the gender, and more about the percieved marketability of said gender. The fact that sex is involved is secondary to the fact that sex sells.

The social backlash, like with the male reaction to male sexualization as being gay, may be what fuels it. But it's not what drives the final 'sale' in the minds of the people telling you to make ugly character designs 'sexier'.

Though thats not to say social output can force bias a system. Witness the recent out of the blue 'gaying' of CBS after GLAAD review hack and slashed them. It's the flip side of this issue.

> a game about a lady soldier who looks and acts in a manner practical and becoming of a soldier

A generic, potentially faceless, personality free grunt that at best spouts tired action movie one liners? Because that's what a great deal of game soldiers are like.

>>89160
>Chell of Portal

I am okay with this.

>>89158
I keep saying you don't get it because you appear to not be reading the words that I'm writing. I don't know how many fucking times I have to say I understand that sex sells before you get that I understand sex sells. Or how many fucking times I have to say that I'm okay with that. But if people don't try to push the boundaries of what you can do both design and personality wise, it will never happen and every female lead in every game will be more of the same for the rest of forever.

>>89160
You know in Starship troopers how men and women are equally willing and able to shoot, pilot ships, get killed on the field, wear practical attire, and joke around like buddies? More of that please.

>>89170

Women were not allowed on the frontlines until a shortage of troops occurred. And that's this war. Who knows if that will continue or become policy or whatever, but up until now, you can't really say "women on the frontlines" when there never were.

PS, Halo has always had female marines. And Cortana is a badass, who is not a sex symbol to anyone but perverts on the internet.

I THINK THIS THREAD SHOULD GO TO /BAW/ AND BECOME WOMEN IN MEDIA.

Because nobody is really talking about videogames most of the time, and videogames, whose biggest market is 18-34 year old MEN, should be held less accountable than movies.

Resume your bitchfits.

>>89171
>they can't get onto the front lines because policy and tradition disallow them.
>Policy and tradition won't change until they get onto the front lines.
>they can't get onto the front lines because policy and tradition disallow them.
>Policy and tradition won't change until they get onto the front lines.
>they can't get onto the front lines because policy and tradition disallow them.
>Policy and tradition won't change until they get onto the front lines.

>>89171

>Cortana
>not a sex symbol

Your word against that of everyone else. Ever.

>>89172

I said nothing about that. I said that they're ON the frontlines, you fucking twat.

>>89173

Like I said, you dirty fucking minded fucks are NOT my responsibility. She is a disembodied artificial intelligence with a female form who never does anything sexual in any way, whatsoever, not even in the promotional art. Just because a bunch of nerds with no lives jack it to that shit, doesn't make her a sex symbol. It just means you all have sweaty palms and need to go outside.

>>89174
She's a female with a slender body and large breasts wearing nothing (in which case no nipples/lower genitals) or is in skin-tight clothing, depending on the designer's intent/your interpretation.

Even if you don't sexualize her, I would argue that she was designed with the intent to sexualize. Any AI avatar, especially in a video game, can be set up in any manner, so her body type was a deliberate decision. From a programmatic standpoint, a male body (or even a flat-chested female) would require less polygons to render, and thus easier to develop.

No, I'd say that Cortana was definitely designed to sexually entice 13 year olds. And I'm okay with that.

>>89175
Canonically, Cortana was designed to resemble her original programmer.

Dinner, bbl. You guys keep punching at air.

>>89175
Hey, even the chunks of hardware that make up GLaDOS were designed to look like Botticelli’s Venus.

>>89178
Right back atcha, babe.

>>89180

I've done nothing of the sort, thank you. All I'm trying to do is provide examples of positive female role models in games. And everytime I do, some weirdo comes in and is like, "I'd jack it to that". I'm honestly done here.

I would love to have a female lead in a video game with some actual personality, but first we need a video game character with some personality at all.

Name one.

>>89182
The entire cast of Valkyria Chronicles.
Every non-boss character in Metal Gear.
Almost all half-decent or better Adventure games made in the past 3 decades.
The entire cast of Psychonauts.

To name a few.

>>89182
How about nine?

>>89182

You're acting like "Some Personality" is something that's difficult to attain.

Hell. Mario has personality and all he says is "WAHOO!" and jumps around on turtle backs all day long.

>>89182

>>89182
Yeah, now you just shooting blindly

>>89182
Have you actually ever played a videogame? Or are you not even trying anymore?

>>89176
That makes sense in canon, but it's still the game developers that designed Cortana's "creator" to have that style of body.

>>89182
The cast of Persona 4.

>>89181
You just picked a poor example that was best left unmentioned. Naked blue lady with nice hoo-has and perfect butt does not help your cause. That said, yeah, she was surprisingly, personality-wise, not explicit or "come-hither" or whatever...but she's still a naked blue lady.

>>89202

Is an abducted female still a damsel if she's being rescued by a woman?

>>89170
>But if people don't try to push the boundaries of what you can do both design and personality wise

Riiiight, but thats actually the point I'M trying to lead into. Which hightens my confusion over your angst. The corperate mentality and buisness psychology.

Oddly enough, there was a really nice video done on the Escapist that touches on this for MMOs. How bigger producers have better funds, but their corperate psychology prevents them from 'PUSHING THE ENVELOPE':

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/1906-The-Future-of-MMOs

>>89204
>damsel in distress

Thats actually a good question, depending if you're asking literally (because then yes in a gramatical sense), or if you're holding up 'damsel' as a potential archetype.

I'd say that'd depend on the personality and presentation of said 'Damsel', since that'll in turn feed established sterotypes.

>>89204
Well, how many abducted men are around?

Having a pretty female be captured and rendered helpless and tied up is completely okay. That's not a problem. If it is always only a pretty lady, no exceptions, that's a problem.

>>89205
Wow, that really is a considering and thought-provoking video. Imma check out their archives.

On the topic of need for funds = stagnation, that's really why a lot of the newer videogames are all copying the same formula, IMO. Now that graphics have to be so high tech, everything is hella expensive. In the age of 2D pixels you could assemble a team of five dudes to make a game around some crazy concept like an anthropomorphized speedster hedgehog collecting emeralds and if it failed, that was sad but you still had a leg to stand on. Videogames were branching out into new and exciting things because it was low risk to do. Now that it takes a team of 90 and a budget into the millions to make a game, it's a high risk endeavor so no one risks it. And that's why you only really see innovation in the indie games nowadays - for them, it's low risk.

I do wish that the big companies would realize that having the shiniest graphics really isn't everything. Especially nowadays with us starting to reach the graphics plateau, when a game can promise, what, now the fog effects are 2% more believable than the last game OMG!!

Maybe when we finally achieve perfect graphical reality we'll be able to lean back and realize that we don't need perfect graphical reality because we can get that shit in the real world for free.

>>89209

They apparently just started. I've liked what they've done so far.

But this thread and those videos are giving me bad flashbacks to my college days of interning with scriptwriters. Good god.

>>89209
The industry was as derivative back then as it is now, and could be just as risky at times. Don't let the nostalgia goggles ruin your perception of the past, bro

>>89268
Really? I mean, there's always been plagiarism, sure. But a few weeks ago I found my big brothers old gaming mags (you know, those paper things they had before broadband), and there seemed to be much more new ideas, experimenting with genres, and variety. The new IP's were outnumbering the sequels, and there was almost no WWII-shooters. It sure looked like the industry was less derivative.

>>89269
The only real difference between then and now is that:

1) The new IPs get no mainstream attention nowadays, giving devs less incentive to make them.
2) Graphics got worse. Yes, worse.

>>89276
>Graphics got worse. Yes, worse.
Ha ha no.

Unless of course you are referring to the fact that current gen graphics are extremely expensive and time consuming to make, and demanding to run properly.

>>89277
I'd liked to think they were referring to the PS1/N64 era when almost everything looked like it came out of a cow's ass.

>>89278
no, wait, they said "now"....yeah, outside of everything being brown and the same, I don't see it.

>>89279
Yeah, I think that's pretty much excactly what he meant. No when you can just make everything OMG SUPER DETAILED AND REALISTIC few bother with actual good design.

>>89281
I think that's a bit different from straight up "uglier". That said, I do miss having actual colors in my games.

>>89277
This. I think it was Shamus Young that points out, for example, that The Witcher is 8 times as demanding as Oblivion, but they look almost exactly the same. What's the point?

>>89193
It's also entirely possible her creator embellished her own features a bit.

  It's not the brown. Heck, my favorite game of all time is pretty much a brown and bloom extravaganza (Snake Eater).

It's just that graphics are rarely ever polished or thought-out anymore. Games are code set to graphics, but a lot of modern games don't try to hide it. Characters hardly ever show emotion, mooks literally spawn out of nowhere, entire worlds are made up of repeating patterns...

It was much the same in the past, but the devs with money could at least afford to try harder. They hardly ever bother anymore.

As for examples, I'd offer up Fallout 3 as the worst offender, and Guns of the Patriots as the best aversion. Even with it's hurrdurr story, MGS4 was an amazing game for the amount of detail packed into every corner. The way the rebels in South America and the Middle East regard you as a hero if you choose to help them, the drunk wandering the streets in Eastern Europe, the worried rebels discussing their opposition over the severed wing of one of Raven's lackeys, the context sensitive sun in Act 2, the active battles where everyone is busy and has a purpose... It's just wild.

I'm coming off as a huge Metal Gear fanboy in this thread, but I just love how many things this series gets right.

>>89291
>Characters hardly ever show emotion, mooks literally spawn out of nowhere, entire worlds are made up of repeating patterns...
Oh erm gee, that sure didn't happen all the time in the good old days OH WAIT YES IT FUCKING DID.

And Fallout 3 isn't a great example considering that Bethesda has always been sort of shit in the visual department. And most other departments.

>>89301
>>89291
>It was much the same in the past, but

>>89287
It's supposed to be based on her when she was younger. She's portrayed as much older with graying hair by the time Reach fell in the novels....which I think got contradicted by Halo Legends but that whole thing was pretty "eh" all around so...myup.

I remember when Cortana didn't have hair physics...

>>89301
>been sort of shit in the visual department

I think they were refering more to the use of visuals to tell non-plot relevant world stories without words, which Fallout 3 did quite frequently.

>>89203
Goombella is actually a really good example of female-done-right. Not saying that all females should be amorphous heads, but she's chock full of personality that would work well with any plain- or sexual- looking woman.

And then there's this.

>>89464
What is Dead or Alive even ABOUT as a series? I'm told it's a tournament fighter, and that there are actually a lot of male characters, but lord knows I've never seen any evidence of either.