yep you are right those things did come out of no where
the only variance was that the existence of lion turtles and the possibility that they were rare/extinct was hinted as Aang seemed genuinely amazed about some drawings of them


you were also correct that this already came up


the main problem was the pacing of the show they were hindered with the number of episodes they were scheduled(using this word in place of a more appropriate one) for

The re taking of Ba Sing Se was the backseat story of the finale. Dissapointing as that was, it was not inteded to showcase the old guys kicking tremendous amounts of ass.

My beef with the finale isn't any of that. It's more so the fact that the water tribe nations were just sort of...forgotten. Ozai's character had little time to be established, but his ambitions ended at simply burning the Earth kingdom alone?

>The White Lotus Society
You mean the society that's mentioned often, starting in S1, and strongly hinted at to be made up of people who are against the war?
>the unlocking of Aang's avatar state
You can't really have thought that would never come back.
>Lion-turtle
Alluded to previously.
>energy bending
Alluded to previously.
>Azula's insanity
Get fucking real. The first thing we ever see of her is her laughing as her brother's face is melted off.

In conclusion, what the fuck are you even thinking.

>>86250

I think the problem here is that you're NOT thinking, rather than anything wrong with OP's position. I mean, you just hand-waived the entire stupidity of the rock away for...what reason, again?

>>86251
I admit, the rock was sort of bullshit.

But it's a cartoon aimed at 7 year olds.

And the Avatar State was Aang's biggest powerup. The twelve-year-old's only chance wasn't just gonna vanish forever when he was going up against the guy that the world decided they were just too weak to fight back against, when even he had an almighty powerup.

It was bullshit, but it made sense. If that makes sense.

>>86252

>But it's a cartoon aimed at 7 year olds.

That excuse means precisely jack-shit. I'd find you the C.S. Lewis quote but I don't like the guy much, so suffice to say that if you're writing a kids story that only kids can enjoy, its not a very good kids story at all.

You don't have to write stupid to write for kids. And that was stupid.

Oh look, another one. It seems like most fans either all-out hate or love the finale, and that's not even taking shipping into consideration. All right, OP, let me try to tackle this. Hopefully you'll feel a little better about the finale by the time I'm finished.

First of all, season three in general: It really needed to be longer. We got one extra episode, but that still wasn't enough. I think it should have been anywhere from 25 to even 30 episodes, that way everything wouldn't have felt so rushed toward the end. It was a good season, but the pacing felt off, whereas the pacing in season two felt almost perfect. The S3 premier should have kicked off with the stories in the Nick mag ("The Bridge" and "Going Home Again" with "It's Only Natural" as a b-plot) and then moved on to the events that took place in "The Awakening". Or at the very least they should have been made into an OVA or prequel. Your complaint seems to be that everything in the finale wrapped up too nice and neat, without much action, but I see it as the other way around. The action scenes worked for me, but I felt like there were too many threads left hanging by the end. And yes, I'm one of those fans who wants Zuko to find Ursa, but it's about more than that.

Now some fans will argue that if the "time-wasting nonsense" had been cut down, there would be enough time to cram some of that other stuff in, but I don't think you'd be able to get everyone to agree on what should be cut. I happen to like most of it myself. Even episodes like "The Painted Lady" have their purpose, despite what others might think. That's why I advocate adding episodes instead of cutting any, and why I'm also a little worried about Korra being a mini-series. It's not that I doubt the writing skills of the Avatar staff, it's that half a normal season's worth of episodes doesn't seem like enough time to tell much of a story. That and I'm greedy, I don't know if 12 episodes will be enough to satisfy my AWS (Avatar Withdrawal Syndrome) or if it will just make it worse.

Moving on, I'll now address the issues mentioned in your post except for the Lionturtle. I've defended that thing so much it's getting tiring, but I will say that Energybending (or at least some way of removing Ozai's powers) was planned from the very beginning, and the Lionturtle itself was established early on as well.

>The White Lotus society
When we finally saw them I thought it was about damn time since I was hoping they'd show up sooner.

>they are a secret society made up, conveniently, of many different bending masters that Aang met on his journey
I'll give you a point for that, but Bumi made light of it by saying "All old people know each other" so I lol'd and took it to mean that the writers were acknowledging how "convenient" it was. But if you think about it, doesn't it make sense for Masters of that calibre to belong to a secret society like the White Lotus? I'm willing to bet Gyatso used to be a member too, he even played Pai Sho.

>Also, Azula's insanity becomes quite apparent since boiling rock, but she becomes out-of-control insane by the end. In the span of a few episodes, she loses her mind. It seems like too convenient a character shift just for the final episode.
Here's the way I see it: Mai and Ty Lee's betrayal is what made her start to crack, but it was Ozai's actions that truly pushed her over the edge. Were it not for that, I think she would have still retained some stability. Azula was a daddy's girl who did her best to please him, which is why she allowed him to manipulate her at such an early age. It's also, IMO, the reason for her perfectionism that we see right away in "The Avatar State", in the scene where she's practicing her Lightingbending. The comments about "one hair out of place" and her reaction to it, with the statement "Almost isn't good enough!" were major tip-offs about her character and personality. I see a lot of fans whining about how h4x Azula is, but in a way, her perfectionism IS her flaw.

The NEED for her to have things go her way, the NEED to win, the NEED to kick ass and be graceful and immaculate while doing so, and let's not forget the NEED for her father's approval, these all become Azula's undoing. She can't handle failure the way Zuko can. Whereas Zuko has things blow up in his face (literally) again and again, and eventually learns to overcome, when something starts to go truly wrong for Azula, she just loses it. She does not know how to deal with a major defeat. Before Mai and Ty Lee betrayed her, she prided herself on being a "people person", she thought she knew everyone inside and out. She thought she could control others by making them fear or admire her (or both) and she couldn't accept that Mai's love for Zuko and Ty Lee's concern for Mai would overcome that. This insinuates her logic is screwed up and the reason she FAILED is because her methods were flawed. Her mind flat-out cannot accept this. This is where she starts to crack.

Now, back to Ozai, she's his little prodigy, she's the favored child, and she's done everything she can to STAY in his favor. Ozai declares himself king of the world and sets out to conquer it without her. Despite appointing her the new Fire Lord, it's obvious he sees it as a worthless position now that he's taken on the title of Phoenix King, and he wants to go burn down the Earth Kingdom and claim the glory for himself while he leaves his daughter behind at home. This is how she sees it, this is why she panics and yells "You can't treat me like this! You can't treat me like Zuko!" because she's done everything Ozai ever wanted of her, and now she's being discarded just like his unfavored son. THIS is where she descends into full-blown insanity. She starts banishing everyone because she feels she can no longer trust them or control them through fear after her friends' betrayal and she doesn't know what to do with herself now that she feels worthless in her father's eyes, despite everything she did for him. Her "reward", claiming the throne and becoming Fire Lord, is now empty and meaningless. Is it any wonder she breaks down? You can still argue about the convenience of the timing, but now you can't call her insanity unbelievable or out of character. Her downfall was set in motion since her first proper introduction.

Can you tell I like to analyze Azula's character to death? Next issue:

>Aang going into the Avatar state because some rock happened to hit the right spot... was not very convincing.
*sigh* I'll give you that. I accept it because of the whole "DESTINY!" thing the show has going, but I'll agree there were a million better ways it could have been done. I remember somebody once made a good point of saying if Ty Lee's knuckles can block/unblock someone's chi, a rock could easily do the same thing, but yes, it was a very lucky "coincidence" a rock like that happened to jab Aang in that specific spot.

>it would have been a lot cooler if Ozai was able to match Avatar Aang in fighting
And how is a comet-powered, evil megalomaniac Firebender going to match a comet-powered Avatar who can not only Firebend, but bend three other elements as well? The only reason Ozai had an advantage to start with was his willingness to kill versus Aang's reluctance and pacifism.

Flying hogmonkeys, did I just write all that? Now I'm really glad I didn't cover the Lionturtle. If you can wade through this wall of text, you get a cookie.

I loved the finale, but I agree with a lot of your points. The finale had some problems, but then again, so did the entire second half of season 3, IMO.

But the good outweighs the bad, so I don't feel the need to bitch about it.

I mostly concur. Unlike the animations and the music of the finale, the plot was lacking.

Hi, psychology major here. I'll do a little nitpicking of my own and say "insane" and "insanity" aren't technically psychology terms but more of legal jargon.

That said, Azula's mental decline into psychosis is pretty accurate and believable. For someone who was born without any mental disorders, you need a trigger event whether it's from something like a brain tumor or a traumatic event, and Azula's trigger was Ty Lee and Mai's betrayal at The Boiling Rock. Mania sets in almost immediately when we see her in 'The Southern Raiders.' Another traumatic event triggers, that being what the anon said above me: Ozai leaving Azula behind for what was to be a meaningless position.

Her psychosis makes her paranoid (back facing the pillar so she can't get backstabbed, the cherry pit incident, banishing the Dai Li and most of her servants), depressed and an insomniac, and she begins to have hallucinations of her mother. Ultimately, it came down to Ty Lee and Mai betraying Azula to sether downfall in motion. It's foreshadowed in 'The Guru' when she says, "It's terrible when you can't trust the people closest to you," and she mentions Mai and Ty Lee, herself, as does Ursa and nothing about Ozai.

All of the events are pretty spread out over days apart and for something like psychosis to set in takes very, very little time. Not to mention that we see little to no Azula during the last few episodes, so I can't progress her decline as accurate as I'd like to.

>>86257
>Azula's trigger was Ty Lee and Mai's betrayal

But...They were with her for about half a year.

Surely this attachment separation syndrome thingy takes longer to form than that?

And it's not as if she ever expressed any care in them outside of her plans.

Then again, there's no point me talking because you've said you've got a degree so therefore anything I say is from an uneducated peon.

>>86263
They were friends since childhood, were they not?

>>86253
I never said that only 7 year olds should be the ones watching it, I said it's aimed at 7 year olds. There's gonna be some things that are just "lol wut." Suspension of belief, or suspension of disbelief, or whatever it's called.
Honestly, if the rock took away from your enjoyment of the show instead of just making you go "lol wut," then you have some sort of problem that extends beyond this.

>They were friends since childhood, were they not?
Not really.

'Since childhood' implies they remained friends until recent times, when all signs point to them never even seeing each other for years and years.

I watched the finale two years ago when it first premiered, didn't care that much for it but, after two years, I don't really feel like going into great detail over it, and I've accepted that It Is What It Is so Oh Well. You're kinda late to the Baw Party. Welcome to the fandom, nonetheless.

Briefly, overall story was meh. Predictable, really. There were parts of it I enjoyed. Piandao (also was nice to see Jeong Jeong and Pakku again), Piandao/Sokka Man!Hug, June, The previous Avatars, Bumi reclaiming Omashu, believe it or not, the Lionturtle, the music and animation, Azula's descent, energybending fascinates me because I had thought up something like it for a story and it's nice to have your crack plot bunnies find their way into a story (but I still wanted Ozai dead *lol*), Iron Toph, and the Sokka/Suki/Toph Team up. (Am I the only person who wants them to travel the world and have adventures?)

Parts of it were boring, downright tedious. The beach party, the DBZ-esque fight between Ozai and Aang, and the rather lengthy epilogue come to mind. I feel asleep a few times during parts 1 and 4.


>>86257

I don't have a degree but I have some people who are close to me who have struggled with mental disorders their whole lives. What you say makes sense based on what I've observed of their behaviors when they are on and off their meds.

To add to the discussion, Azula's breakdown was foreshadowed in The Avatar State. Several times during that episode, whenever she felt the slightest bit of control lost, she become very agitated. Specifically, when her boat captain suggested they wait to dock (for very practical reasons), when he then gave away their plan to Iroh and Zuko, and she was very upset over having "one hair out of place" after a lightning demonstration. Then there's the first glimpse we see of her practically giddy in The Storm when Ozai burns Zuko (already mentioned), and Zuko's own comment from his flashback in Zuko Alone: "You're sick". Add to that her history of harming small, defenseless animals, her cruel (probably lethal) arm-twisting of Ty Lee in Return To Omashu, and her extreme social awkwardness in The Beach, Anyone should have expected she'd be headed for a total meltdown. Plus, she was the Bad Guy. In a show like Avatar, the Bad Guys always buy into their own destruction. Her meltdown was as built into the narrative as Zuko's Daddy Issues or Aang and Katara's End Game love. While there are things that seemed to come out of nowhere for the sake of a plot device, Azula's breakdown isn't one of them.

>>86263

>But...They were with her for about half a year.
>Surely this attachment separation syndrome thingy takes longer to form than that?

People stalk celebrities they've never even meant. Aang fell in love with Katara the first time he laid eyes on her. Suki was crushing on Sokka after a week. Sokka and Yue where immediately taken with one another. People form attachments to people they don't even know all the time. But this really doesn't even matter because Mai and Ty Lee have been in and out of Azula's life since she was a very small child. We don't know how much time they spent together but it could add up to years.

>And it's not as if she ever expressed any care in them outside of her plans.

But all that really mattered to her was whatever was going on in her head. She obviously cared for them in her own limited way, even if she didn't show it. Plus, there was an internal belief that people could be controlled through fear that was shattered when Mai betrayed her. Some people do not react well when their beliefs are destroyed, particularly when their mental faculties are built upon a shaky foundation possible genetic predisposition, poor upbringing (because there's no way Ozai was Father of the Year), social conditions, and her own perfectionism and high expectation.

Then there's timing. Azula's promoted to the rank of Fire Lord which brought her more power but also more responsibility at a time when her world was crashing down around her added more stress to the list of existing problems. Then there's the part where Ozai stole her plan then shut her out of it's execution so he could get all the glory for himself. That wouldn't have been a pleasant experience for anyone. What he did was also a betrayal that just drove home the notion that no one could be trusted, a feeling that people will always turn against her.

>>86263

Azula, Ty Lee and Mai have been with each other since they were really little. Azula considered them friends to a certain point, otherwise she wouldn't have been making a remarks about them in 'Sozin's Comet.'

>>86268

Not to mention that in 'The Avatar State,' Azula seems to have a little tic with her bangs that gets forgotten later. It's a little detail, but a tic is always something.

>>86267
They all went to the fire nation academy together.

Azula clearly cared for Mai and Ty Lee, she trusted them even if she denies it when allucinating.
Also, people are understimating the effect of Ty Lee's chi blocking. It was described as a frightening experience by Katara and earth soldiers, and Azula certainly didn't expect her friend to use it on her.

Azula's breakdown scenes are some of my favorite things in the show, and I really appreciate posts like >>86254 and >>86257.

The big problem with the Avatar finale is that it’s based entirely around narrative convenience, even when it makes no sense for it to progress that way.

For example, why is the white lotus clearing out Ba Sing Se? For starters, it’s a much smarter move for Zuko (who is essentially a usurper) to show his commitment to peace by withdrawing his troops from the capital city. But no, they have to leave him in front of the world with no back up to his claims.

Why do they have to free Ba Sing Se tonight again? Because the fire benders will be stronger, of course. But, there’s a whole city of fire benders, and only 1/5 of the white lotus are fire benders (taking in non-benders), so why bother doing it now? Why not just take the hit to a fifth of their troops so fight a bunch of low levelled punks? Oh yeah, epic finale.

How about Ozai’s plan to burn all those trees to ashes. I’m sure after 100 years of war the people of the Earth Kingdom will lose hope when Ozai stands there and tells them “You want some of this? You want some of what those trees got?” It’s not as if he was heading for some centre of population, it was just woodland. I’m going to the outback to kick over a tree, teach those bitch-ass Australians whose boss.

Ozai’s fight with Aang always baffled me as well, because it made no sense. I’m told that Avatar is entirely character based, and that the story is meaningless. So why should these two characters meet? What brought these two together the way that Enzo and Megabyte were brought together? The way Primal and Megatron were brought together? Well, there’s nothing. He’s the bad guy so Aang must fight him. Enjoy the light show and don’t ask questions.

Post fight always annoyed me as well, because it made Ozai out to be a bitch. Usually there’s not a problem with that, but this is a warlord who is supposed to be the face of evil. More like loser-lord! Haha. Yeah, remind me why we’re supposed to fear these bad guys again? So far we’ve seen them go out like punks and think a monkey can bend. All this could have been avoided if, even while lying on the floor like a cripple who got tipped out of his chair, Ozai just laughed in Aang’s face. “You’ve taken away my bending? You think you’ve won after all I’ve taken from you?” Oh wait, that would require some interaction between the two characters...Did they even know each other’s names...?

Anyway, the warships. Why was that here again? Besides to allow Toph, Sokka and Suki something to do? Because all they were doing is burning woodland, which is kind of bad...For the animals. But it’s not as if they were burning farmland or something. If anything these lands are going to be more useful afterwards.

At last, we get to something with some drama in this ‘character driven’ show. I do have a problem with this though. They just danced around each other and blasted fire around every inch of the courtyard (except where Katara was hiding, until she ran out for some retarded reason). You never would have guess from this totally silent display that these where two siblings with a whole life of rivalry and hate for each other. Is this really the same girl Zuko was talking about at the end of Season 1? I’m not expecting anime style punch punch talk for 20 minutes. But if Code of Hero, a twenty minute episode, not even a finale, can get this right, surely they can remember to put this in a character driven show? I guess not.

I do have a problem with the Lion-Turtle in a narrative sense however. Why now? Why not before the invasion during the eclipse? Did he just wait until it was dramatically convenient?

I know that this will most likely go one of two ways: It will be deleted (I may or may not be banned) or I will be called a troll. I wish I could take part in your Avatroll remenisant “I really appreciate posts like >>86254 and >>86257” ‘self’ referential echoes of an opinion, like the man who always shouts what an evangelical has just said.

Say it preacher-man!

>>86272

>All this could have been avoided if, even while lying on the floor like a cripple who got tipped out of his chair, Ozai just laughed in Aang’s face. “You’ve taken away my bending? You think you’ve won after all I’ve taken from you?”

That wouldn't have mad sense since Ozai himself didn't take anything from Aang.

>Oh wait, that would require some interaction between the two characters...Did they even know each other’s names...?

Don't know if Ozai knew Aang's name but Aang did know who he was. His picture was in every classroom at the Fire Nation school and there was a huge statue of him in The Runaway, and he referred to him several times as Firelord Ozai.

>this thread

The whole avatar-state returning because he hit a rock didn't bother me as much, because Aang showed that he could have ended the fight when he redirected Ozai's lightning.

>her history of harming small, defenseless animals

I think you did alright aside from this part. The only incident I can thing of regarding this would be the turtleduck thing in the flashback, and considering the 'Hey, wanna see how dad feeds them?' remark, I gather that it was an emulated behavouir from her father and that she just monkey-see'd him, without properly understanding the context of the actions. I dare say that's where most of her problems originate, actually.

>>86275
Why "Fuck this thread"?

Is it because there's a discussion where people are saying things other that "Avatar is the magnum opus of story telling"?

>>86280

>>her history of harming small, defenseless animals

>I think you did alright aside from this part. The only incident I can thing of regarding this would be the turtleduck thing in the flashback, and considering the 'Hey, wanna see how dad feeds them?' remark,

Sorry, I don't know what remark you're talking about. The only remark I remember is the one Zuko made that went something like "Wanna see how Azula feeds turtleducks?"

>I gather that it was an emulated behavouir from her father and that she just monkey-see'd him, without properly understanding the context of the actions. I dare say that's where most of her problems originate, actually.

Well, that may be. But the fact that they ran away from her five years later in The Awakening told me they had a set-in fear of her because 1) she just gave off crazy or 2) her torment of them was ongoing.

>>86282

Ah yeah; I durped. Sorry.

>>86283

No problem. :)

OP here
Wow, slowpoke is slow, but apparently there is still some debate revolving around the finale.
It almost feels like a mini shitstorm in here.

Its true that there were several references to both the lion turtle and the white lotus society throughout the series, but not much detail is given about them until they suddenly pop into the finale.
It would be cool if some animated films were released tying up some loose ends and putting some more detail on things that were just glanced over in the series (like Koh), but alas, The Last Airbender happened.

Oh, and as a side question, what was your SINGLE favorite episode?

>>86286
The Beach was magnificent, but I dunno if it was my favorite.
As dumb as it may seem, though, a large part of what made it so great was that big "I'M ANGRY AT MYSELF!" explosion at the end.

  >>86286
The best kind of world-building is the kind where weird shit happens and they don't spend three episodes covering it and getting to the bottom of everything.

Koh is a fucked up face-stealing spirit. That is all there is to him.

>How about Ozai’s plan to burn all those trees to ashes. I’m sure after 100 years of war the people of the Earth Kingdom will lose hope when Ozai stands there and tells them “You want some of this? You want some of what those trees got?” It’s not as if he was heading for some centre of population, it was just woodland. I’m going to the outback to kick over a tree, teach those bitch-ass Australians whose boss.

Ozai wasn't just going to torch the trees. He and the warship fleet were planning on burning up the ENTIRE Earth Kingdom. (Or at least as much of it as they could while the comet's power lasted.) THAT was what was supposed to break the hope of the remaining resistance.

Luckily for the Earth Kingdom, Aang and Co. were there to stop the warships before they got over any *inhabited* territory.

>>86294
Though I would say that this was still an enormous task for so few airships. While we don't know exactly how long the comet was powering the Firebenders, I'd assume it was a few hours. I could see them burning a strip of land across the continent in that time, but nothing that would really approach total devastation.

I think it would have worked better had the fight been somewhat closer to the populated areas the fleet was headed toward -- even just a few shots of fearful villagers watching the battle on the horizon would have helped give the fight some more context.

>>86297

The Earth Kingdom is, like, 60% of the planet.

You're saying that in a few hours they'd even be able to, on that level of technology, even get across the ocean in time?

Either these blimps travel about a thousand miles an hour, or the entire planet is about the size of England.

>>86298
> or the entire planet is about the size of England.
Considering how quickly everyone was moving from place to place in the finale, that wouldn't surprise me.

Also it explains why Airbenders can jump so high -- low gravity :3

>>86293
The best kind of world building is where the audience is totally ignorant?

That's not world building, that's telling the audience "Sit down, don't think, just take our word for it."

>>86286>>86293>>86300

Both sides here have good points. One one hand, overexplaining some things detracts from the sense of the world as a real place that the audience is looking into (it's why I never saw the point of "we fans need an hour-long episode to show us Zuko finding his mommy" since there's seemingly nothing in there that people can't already figure out from extrapolation). On the other hand, when you have real game-changing elements like the lionturtle and energybending, I would have appreciated more foreshadowing and references, because its presence and implications are so integral to the way the plot turns out.

I compare it to the beginning of the film "The Gamers: Dorkness Rising," where at the beginning a D&D session leads to an argument after the DM's villain uses magic to separate a cleric from the power of his god, a situation the players weren't prepared for because the rules don't really allow for it, resulting in the deaths of their characters. The DM had a point that this unexpected turn of events was meant to surprise the players, but a player also had a point that not having that knowledge foreshadowed properly meant they were going in with certain OOC assumed notions about the way the world works and having it change without warning made for an unpleasant experience.

Avatar is the same way in that bending and the Avatar world has its "rules" set up very internally consistently, such that when something really unprecedented shows up, it can be a more dramatic and interesting scene, but without proper foreshadowing it can also stretch the limits of what some watchers will readily accept.

>>86268
>the DBZ-esque fight between Ozai and Aang
The fight was overpowered, but that was kind of the whole point. The comet enhanced Firebending, so both Aang and Ozai got to do things with it that they normally wouldn't be capable of doing. But to compare it to DBZ is an insult, for that to be accurate they'd have to be yelling everything, making exclamations about OVER 9000 power levels, attacking so fast you couldn't see it, and spending a bunch of episodes powering up before the actual fighting even began. The fandom is a fickle mistress. On one hand, you have fans that complain about too much fighting, and on the other, those that like to complain about TOO MUCH fighting. Can't win.

>I feel asleep a few times during parts 1 and 4.
I can't even fathom that. You must have been really tired, because I was on the edge of my seat, even during the "boring" parts. The finale was a much-anticipated event to me.

>>86272
>For example, why is the white lotus clearing out Ba Sing Se?
I think the most important reason would be Iroh's vision that he would one day take the city, and finally realized this meant he would take it back for the Earth Kingdom.

>For starters, it’s a much smarter move for Zuko (who is essentially a usurper) to show his commitment to peace by withdrawing his troops from the capital city. But no, they have to leave him in front of the world with no back up to his claims.
Uh, Zuko is busy taking down his crazy sister so he can ascend to the throne so the Fire Nation will have an honorable ruler to help put it on the right path, like Iroh said he should. He can't give the order to withdraw troops until he's in a position of power to do so.

>How about Ozai’s plan to burn all those trees to ashes.
My biggest bet is issues with Nickelodeon. If Ozai and his gang start burning down a densely populated area with no one available to put out their super-powered fires, the execs would probably not allow it. Remember Sokka, Suki, and Toph were on the airships, Katara was helping Zuko take out Azula, and Aang was fighting Ozai. Anyway, I'm sure that was Ozai's intention, he and his crew were just stopped before they could make it past the trees and woodland creatures. He was also going for a "scorched earth" strategy as one other Anon put it, which was initially Azula's plan, as well as enacting a second genocide (or as close as they could get to it) on the Earth Kingdom in the process. Even after the comet power died down, they probably would have carried on burning and destroying anything they could.

>Ozai’s fight with Aang always baffled me as well, because it made no sense. I’m told that Avatar is entirely character based, and that the story is meaningless. So why should these two characters meet?
Did you miss the part where they kept saying it was the Avatar's DESTINY to defeat the Fire Lord? I've also never heard anyone claim that the story was meaningless. Good characters + Good story = Good show.

>All this could have been avoided if, even while lying on the floor like a cripple who got tipped out of his chair, Ozai just laughed in Aang’s face. “You’ve taken away my bending? You think you’ve won after all I’ve taken from you?”
So you wanted him to be even more of a stereotypical Big Bad than he already was and spout cliche tough-guy lines? And like plushulala said, Ozai didn't take anything from Aang personally. Besides, the man basically got soul-raped and was severely weakened, it's a wonder he could move at all. I didn't like the "Loser Lord" mocking part, though. It seemed too childish and took away from the gravity of the situation, but maybe that was the point.

>Anyway, the warships. Why was that here again? Besides to allow Toph, Sokka and Suki something to do?
To help Ozai burn down the Earth Kingdom, and yes, it gave those three something to do as well.

>Because all they were doing is burning woodland, which is kind of bad...For the animals. But it’s not as if they were burning farmland or something. If anything these lands are going to be more useful afterwards.
See my previous comment on this.

>I know that this will most likely go one of two ways: It will be deleted (I may or may not be banned) or I will be called a troll.
My, what a persecution complex you have! As you can see, neither of those things have happened. You might not be a troll, but you're acting like a whiny bitch now.

>I wish I could take part in your Avatroll remenisant “I really appreciate posts like >>86254 and >>86257” ‘self’ referential echoes of an opinion, like the man who always shouts what an evangelical has just said.
Wait, now that person is the one being a troll? Agreeing with what someone said makes you a troll or a mindless parrot? Kindly go fuck yourself.

>>86286
>Wow, slowpoke is slow, but apparently there is still some debate revolving around the finale.
It never stopped, IMO, just sort of died down.

>Its true that there were several references to both the lion turtle and the white lotus society throughout the series, but not much detail is given about them until they suddenly pop into the finale.
That's so they would be a surprise when they finally showed up, although I did think the White Lotus would appear before finale.

>It would be cool if some animated films were released tying up some loose ends and putting some more detail on things that were just glanced over in the series
I agree 100% (oh no, I'm being a troll!) and hope we get those canceled hour-long specials someday. Maybe if Korra does well Nick will think about reviving them. At the very least, I think most fans would agree on a special about Iroh's journey to the Spirit World.

Anyone who complains about the finale has no idea who a masterpiece looks, because Avatar is just that.

The fact that this thread even exists proves that it went way over people's heads.

Ozai is one of the most thematically complex villains in animated history.

>>86301
No one would have cared about Zuko's mother, had he not mentioned it. What we got was the narrative equivalent of going up to a friend and saying "Oh, wow, man, have you heard about-- You know what? Never mind."

>>86302
The fight was overpowered, but that was kind of the whole point. The comet enhanced Firebending, so both Aang and Ozai got to do things with it that they normally wouldn't be capable of doing. But to compare it to DBZ is an insult, for that to be accurate they'd have to be yelling everything, making exclamations about OVER 9000 power levels, attacking so fast you couldn't see it, and spending a bunch of episodes powering up before the actual fighting even began. The fandom is a fickle mistress. On one hand, you have fans that complain about too much fighting, and on the other, those that like to complain about TOO MUCH fighting. Can't win.
I think all the fandom wanted was some dramatic tension outside of “Oh no, Bad is fighting Good.” But being all flashy and just having the two fly around bumping in to each other to garner any excitement is just bying in to the same philosophy as the prequel trilogy.

>I can't even fathom that. You must have been really tired, because I was on the edge of my seat, even during the "boring" parts. The finale was a much-anticipated event to me.
Is your argument really “There must have been something wrong with you”?

>I think the most important reason would be Iroh's vision that he would one day take the city, and finally realized this meant he would take it back for the Earth Kingdom.
Really? I thought the reason was to free a captured people. Oh well.

>Uh, Zuko is busy taking down his crazy sister so he can ascend to the throne so the Fire Nation will have an honorable ruler to help put it on the right path, like Iroh said he should. He can't give the order to withdraw troops until he's in a position of power to do so.
I mean afterwards, when he’s in power, “in front of the world with no back up to his claims”. But my exact point was why should anyone believe that he’s “an honorable ruler to help put it on the right path” and not another war mongerer? You could say “Because he’s friends with the Avatar”, but look how that turned out last time. Granted the populalation of the world don’t know that, but to them they see “Avatar dead for 100 years, suddenly he’s alive and standing next to the usurper.”

> My biggest bet is issues with Nickelodeon. If Ozai and his gang start burning down a densely populated area with no one available to put out their super-powered fires, the execs would probably not allow it. Remember Sokka, Suki, and Toph were on the airships, Katara was helping Zuko take out Azula, and Aang was fighting Ozai. Anyway, I'm sure that was Ozai's intention, he and his crew were just stopped before they could make it past the trees and woodland creatures. He was also going for a "scorched earth" strategy as one other Anon put it, which was initially Azula's plan, as well as enacting a second genocide (or as close as they could get to it) on the Earth Kingdom in the process. Even after the comet power died down, they probably would have carried on burning and destroying anything they could.
How could I possibly reply to personal canon, or argue against it? If we’re allowed to ignore what happened and think of what the intention MIGHT have been, then I could explain Beast Machines being totally in character. Afterall, I’m sure their intention might have been to reference Rattrap’s original design, and that his personality might have been to do with this. Maybe...

> Did you miss the part where they kept saying it was the Avatar's DESTINY to defeat the Fire Lord?
If he was destined to DEFEAT the Fire Lord, why even try to pretend there’s a chance he might fail? Afterall, the universe has his back here. Wouldn’t it be much more dramatic to have his destiny be to FIGHT the Fire Lord, and openly state that from then on he’s on his own? Aang wouldn’t have any spiritual stuff to fall back on.

>I've also never heard anyone claim that the story was meaningless. Good characters + Good story = Good show.
Pretty much everytime someone on /co/ says there’s even something slightly wrong with Avatar’s story this knee jerk reaction comes up. You can say “/co/ doesn’t count”, but where would you draw the line?

> So you wanted him to be even more of a stereotypical Big Bad than he already was and spout cliche tough-guy lines?
More that even though he’s beaten, he’s not defeated. Just like Megabyte said: “No, you remember Boy. How I turned defeat into victory, how I left you with a dying system.” Sudenly the idea that any sense of victory could be taken from this battle is destroyed. We get the feeling that the villain has left a mark on the hero. An emotional mark that is. Aren’t great fights internal as well as external?
>And like plushulala said, Ozai didn't take anything from Aang personally.
Which kind of highlights my point that there was no dramatic resion for Aang to fight him, when he was in the background for so long. It’s like if...In Beast Wars Cheetor and, I dunno, Blackarachnia fight Megatron, and Primal fights one of the Tripredacous Council? Granted a better example might have been Tarantuals and Blackarachnia, but you get what I was going for.
>Besides, the man basically got soul-raped and was severely weakened, it's a wonder he could move at all. I didn't like the "Loser Lord" mocking part, though. It seemed too childish and took away from the gravity of the situation, but maybe that was the point.
Again with the maybes.

> My, what a persecution complex you have! As you can see, neither of those things have happened. You might not be a troll, but you're acting like a whiny bitch now.
> Wait, now that person is the one being a troll? Agreeing with what someone said makes you a troll or a mindless parrot? Kindly go fuck yourself.
What would your reaction be to the following statement (more-or-less)?
“Avatar didn’t really break as much ground as you’re giving it credit for. Even Thundercats in all its goofyness has genocide, sex jokes have been done since children’s media began and it’s really not all that violent, Gargolyes for example had worse.”
Disagree with me and argue my points? Times were different then? Different tone? Banned for 3 months from all of plus4chan for trolling? Yeah. That one.

>>86302

>The fight was overpowered, but that was kind of the whole point.
When I say it was "DBZ-esque", I mean it was dragged out for effect, not that I had a problem with them being overpowered.

>>I feel asleep a few times during parts 1 and 4.
>I can't even fathom that.
You can't fathom that people react differently than you do to the things we watch on television?

>You must have been really tired, because I was on the edge of my seat, even during the "boring" parts. The finale was a much-anticipated event to me.
I read the Sozin's Comet adaptation three months earlier. There wasn't a whole lot to anticipate.


>>86304

>Ozai is one of the most thematically complex villains in animated history.
Saying "Ozai is one of the most thematically complex villains in animated history" is like saying "The Last Airbender will win the Oscar for Best Picture". Some things will never be true.

>>86307
>I read the Sozin's Comet adaptation three months earlier. There wasn't a whole lot to anticipate.

So whose fault is it you were bored by the finale?

>>86305
>I mean afterwards, when he’s in power

So he should liberate the city months after it's been burned to the ground by the Fire Nation?

>>86305
Lol man.
Not only does it seem like you have too much time on your hands, but I'm starting to doubt if you even belong to an AtLA imageboard.

>>86310
>>I read the Sozin's Comet adaptation three months earlier. There wasn't a whole lot to anticipate.

>So whose fault is it you were bored by the finale?
Mine for not waiting for detailed spoilers regarding which scenes Piandao was in so I'd know when to check in and check back out. Oh well. Piandao was worth it. :D

>>86311

How about as a first act of pow-
Wait...Ba Sing Se was never planned to be burned to the ground.

One thing I'd like to point out is that they did intend to show Azula as a control freak that could eventually flip the fuck out at some point in S2. The first time we see her lightning bend. She's upset, VERY upset, that she didn't do it right. If there and been more moments of this in S2 and in S3 her breakdown would be believable. But it seems they just fell in love with Azula and her persona until the end where they HAD to act like she had been showing her weakness all along. Maybe we can believe all these freak out moments she could of had were transferred others near by. IDK.

What about the fact that the writers robbed Zuko of his development-capping victory against Azula just to give Katara something to do?

That honestly bothered me more than anything.

>>86418
Defeating Azula was never the point of Zuko's character.

>>86418
You could say that teaming up with Katara worked more for his development. In S1 you can see how much he values his own opinion over others' and will do anything to go it alone. He probably couldn't have taken Azula by himself, even accounting for her instability.