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File: 128343326277.png-(551.64KB, 720x480, ep41-1228[1].png)
86046 No.86046
I really don't mean to start a religious flamewar, but something on the avatar wikia just caught my attention:

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/The_Awakening

>There are various Judeo-Christian references throughout the episode. Avatar Roku and Princess Yue appear in celestial beams of light shining through the clouds, reminiscent of angels. Avatar Roku physically resembles traditional depictions of the Abrahamic God while Princess Yue is physically very similar to the Virgin Mary. Aang is comparable with Christ in this, as it is his destiny to save the world but he is given comfort in the troubled times and affirms his resolve to see his destiny through. Zuko is similar to Judas Iscariot, given his moral confusion and his betrayal of Aang. Ozai and Azula meanwhile, represent satanic figures in that they tempt Zuko to the path of evil and both frequently appear wreathed in flame.

I can agree with some of these points, but it seems like whoever wrote this was looking too hard for references. How can Roku and Yue resemble both angels and God/Mary (and how the hell is Yue supposed to look like her?)? Ozai is never tempting Zuko, if anything the point of revealing his face was meant to show he is just a man. Azula isn't surrounded by flames, and when that actually happens in the finale she's anything but satanic.

However, do you think some of those similarities were actually intentional on the writers' part?

Expand all images
No.86049
...I don't know, all of those sound kinda bullshit to me.

I'm betting we can easily find actual examples of everything this thing is pointing out in some Chinese legend just as easy (Hell, that thing about Aang being Christ can also point at Gautama Buddha.)

And even if we don't, it sounds like all of these things are common enough tropes that the resemblance is probably a coincidence. I mean, this is trivia, but it's not linking to any source or anything easily verifiable or easily discerned. It sounds like the author just tossed it in.

I think I'll try striking up a convo on the discussion page asking all this, maybe it should just be removed.

No.86051
... What Jones said. Yue looked a lot more like the buddhist Merciful Goddess concept than something Judeo-Christian to me. And at the time of his "treason", Zuko wasn't exactly "one of the gang" yet, and unlike Judas he was mistrusted. I think the main problem of the person who wrote this is small reference pools - If that person knows mostly judeo-christian stuff, it's gonna look like that to him/her, even if it's supposed to look like something else.

So yeah, I think the similarities weren't intentional; people just read too much into it and try desperately to shoehorn their own views in just so it's not this terrifying, unknown foreign thing.

No.86052
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory

Some connections are obviously intentional (like Katara holding the lifeless Aang in a Pieta-esque fashion in "The Crossroads of Destiny"), and one would expect some Western/Judeo-Christian influences despite the Asian setting just because the creators of the show were raised in a Western culture, but most of that post is just reaching too much.

No.86053
Man, Moon Spirit Yue was fuckin' smoking.

No.86055
I'm quickly losing interest in this wiki. They surely like to make shit up.
http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Film%3AThe_Last_Airbender_2
The whole article is ridiculous, there's no way to save it from its fail.

No.86056
Yeah, you know what? I'm gonna delete it and see what happens.

No.86057
Yes, because clearly celestial beings that appear in beams of light shining through the clouds appear ONLY in Judeo-Christian theology and never in any other mythology or religious reference in any other culture in the history of the world.

*Eyeroll* *Sarcasm off*

As for the traditional depictions of the Abrahamic God, he's just an old guy with a white beard in a robe (sometimes naked). If physical resemblence as a reference can be argued then one could extrapolate that my Grandpa in a bathrobe could be a representation of the Abrahamic God.

Princess Yue isn't physically very similar to the Virgin Mary. Whoever wrote this needs to get their eyes checked.

Aang and Christ are fundementally different, as it's the destiny of Christ to sacrifice himself for humankind to save their immortal souls, whereas it's the destiny of Aang to kill a man (or cripple him with Energybending) to ensure that one group of humans doesn't become politically ascendant over all other groups. Whether or not the Fire Nation rules the world has no bearing on where their souls go when they die.

Zuko is not similar to Judas, because Judas first pledged his loyalty to Jesus to become a disciple, so his actions constitute a betrayal, whereas Zuko never went up to Aang and said "I want to be your follower," prior to joining forces with Azula.

The justification that Ozai and Azula represent Satan because they appear wreathed in flame is just moronic, because multiple other characters appear wreathed in flame. All firebenders aside, Roku appears wreathed in flame during his manifestation during the Winter Solstice, and Aang himself is wreathed in flame when he becomes a fully-realized Avatar in the Avatar State. Are all these people also representations of Satan because they're surrounded by fire? There's about as much justification for this as saying Azula and Ozai are clearly representations of the Greek God Zeus because they emit bolts of lightning and can FLY?

No.86060
>>86055
I also dislike how the Wiki seems to just come up with Chinese characters for various names even when their names are never written in the show. The lines between fanon and canon blur uncomfortably there.

No.86061
>>Zuko is similar to Judas Iscario

I call BS on it. It was Jesus who needed to be betrayed in first place. He probably asked Judas to do that for him as a favor, as some scholars have inferred from the apocriph "Gospel of Judas".

No.86082
File: 128349854269.png-(420.14KB, 600x405, WTF_AM_I_READING.png)
86082

No.86083
File: 128351638543.png-(630.47KB, 678x450, ava-001140.png)
86083
THE RESEMBLANCE IS UNCANNY

No.86085
Ugh, it got reverted. I'm leaving a message with the admin that did it. It's a silly thing to dislike, but that really shouldn't be there, it's basically all bullshit, and it's passing itself off as fact on this little thing.

No.86087
Anyway the Bible is just copypasta of some Egyptian myths such as "land emerging from water" or "god makes people from clay" (Egyptian god Khnum)... Yahweh was originally part of a pantheon with other gods such as El and Adonai later being merged into a single figure.

And the verse reading "the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters" is a clear reference to a protosemitic water deity.

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
No.86088
>>86087
oh my fucking god are you really gonna start a religious war on an ATLA board

No.86089
I got a message back from one of the mods, he agrees the references are too forced, and removed the entry. Turns out they got reverted because somebody did some other edit and it brought that other one back, or something.

No.86090
>>86088
I think that's how you just interpreted his post. He's stating facts to say that the episode could be a number of any other religions if examined. He wasn't trying to start some sort of flame-war, it's how you read it.

No.86091
>>86090
Speaking of him not trying to start a flame-war, why the hell was he banned? Someone is a little too sensitive.

No.86092
>>86091

Hmm...that whole 'biblical figures lifted from the Egyptian pantheon' malarkey sounds worryingly close to some 'facts' asserted in the first part of this online video spiel called "Zeitgeist".

For reasons why this is worrying, and why this non-academic poppycock has associations that shouldn't be allowed within a million fucking miles of this board...watch the second part. Or don't, preferably.

Going back to the topic at hand, it could be interesting to document mythological references in Avatar, whether Judeo-Christian or otherwise (probably mostly otherwise). But I think it should be a subject directed at the series as a whole, with its own page, because zoning in on just one episode sounds rather silly even without the forced Everyone Is Jesus In Purgatory angle.

No.86093
>>86090
Really? Cause I didn't even see him mention the episode at all, seems like he was fishing for raging Christfags with that whole "God is just a ripoff anyway" thing.

No.86094
>>86092
>>Hmm...that whole 'biblical figures lifted from the Egyptian pantheon' malarkey sounds worryingly close to some 'facts' asserted in the first part of this online video spiel called "Zeitgeist".

I know, I know, Zeitgeist.
Now, the myths of Egyptian gods emerging from water, and then creating people from clay predate Biblical accounts by many centuries.
It's not really a big mystery but a well documented part of Egyptian culture, so I don't understand why someone would be offended over it.

>>86093
I'm not "fishing for raging Christfags" but it's not my problem if someone is offended by Archaeology or Anthropology, really.

---

I actually feel it's a sign of religious intolerance to ban me on the base that I quote Egyptian scripture instead of Christian scripture.

No.86095
I read once on this board that there were people who were really uncomfortable with all the Eastern spiritual and religious themes in A:tLA. Are people really so afraid to accept that there are in fact, non-patriarchal/non-monotheistic religions out there? What do you guys think?

No.86096
>>86095
>Are people really so afraid to accept that there are in fact, non-patriarchal/non-monotheistic religions out there? What do you guys think?
Yes.

>non-patriarchal religion
But I'm not sure there are any of those about.

No.86097
>>86095
Well, I'd say "yes, they are afraid".
Agnostics and pantheists are often counted as atheists by members from Abrahamic religions. Meanwhile, Buddhism, Hinduism and other local polytheistic traditions are disregarded as mere nonsense or just tall tales.

There's a lot of subtle racism coming from these ideas. Some communities keep distance from Eastern or African inmigrants unless they present themselves to a local church.

No.86098
I remember Asian kids of Chinese and Korean ancestry in my school being targeted by the Christian Youth groups on a regular basis.
They'd preach to the Asian kids almost weekly.

I don't know if this proselytism qualifies as harrasment or what...

No.86099
>>86098

From a proselytising (spelling?) perspective, this makes sense though. East Asian immigrants or children of East Asian immigrants are not likely to be Christians, so they're the ones who are the most in need of having their souls saved.

Plus, speaking from my personal experiences as a East Asian immigrant former converted Christian turned Atheist, those wacky East Asians make the most zealous born-agains. ^_~

...Please don't ban me. >_>;

No.86102
>>86094
It wasn't what you said, it was how you said it.

I can see "gee, you should probably lose some weight, that can't be healthy on your heart" to a morbidly obese person, or I can say "HAHAHAHA OH MAN YOU ARE SO HUGE, YOU'RE TOTALLY GONNA HAVE A HEART ATTACK. GO FOR A JOG, FATTY." Technically, both mean the same thing, and it's helpful advice either way. But it's obvious that one's gonna cause a stir.

You obviously weren't quite that forward, I'm exaggerating to make a point, but it definitely seemed like it was said with some malice/intent to cause an argument.

No.86105
>>86102

I apologize if that was the case. I shouldn't have used "copypasta" to describe cultural appropriation of Egyptian myths.

No.86106
>>86102
>>86105
It wasn't until just now that I realized how great of a board this is. This would have degenerated until a purely insult based argument on any 4chan board.

No.86112
>>86097
But just what is wrong with the idea of the interconnectedness of all things? That all life is sacred and should be respected? I also recall reading something here about some Christian outrage group getting mad about the stuff I listed above, but also poo-pooing the idea of independent thought?
Seriously?! Those are ideas that kids absolutely should be exposed to! Does anyone else agree?

No.86113
>>86097
But just what is wrong with the idea of the interconnectedness of all things? That all life is sacred and should be respected? I also recall reading something here about some Christian outrage group getting mad about the stuff I listed above, but also poo-pooing the idea of independent thought?
Seriously?! Those are ideas that kids absolutely should be exposed to! Does anyone else agree?

No.86117
>>86112
Abrahamic tradition is a big source of racism (subtle and not so subtle), discrimination, anti-intellectual intolerance and persecution. These intitutions depend on people's emotional dependance (which they mistakenly refer as "faith"), therefore rational independence (independent thought) is not encouraged and sometimes even discouraged. Sermons and other liturgical rites are not open philosophical debates, they're linear conclusions that are expected to be accepted without questioning (often praised as "the virtue of blind faith"). There is a big influence of Plato's philosophy on the development of Medieval religion and culture, while the Eastern world remained open to Socratic discourse (elenchus), as it spread in Asia with Alexander the Great (student to Aristotle, who intructed him in Socrates' method).

I often feel like the reason why we haven't got to a point or relative world peace already is because these large groups are still fighting over whose interpretation of Abrahamic tradition is the correct one, with everyone else going to "eternal suffering in a lake of fire" or any similar allegory.

Personally, I see the whole "hell" belief as a form of terror tactic to coerce people into joining the pyramid scheme of a hierarchical structure.
I still don't understand why it isn't considered a criminal threatening misdemeanor. Following Socratic tradition, I admit my own ignorance on this subject.

Asian religions aren't free of similar "hell" beliefs though, but at least they embrace relativism and syncretism, unlike Abrahamic traditions.

No.86118
>>86117
Can't say I disagree, in fact quite the contrary, I agree completely. But this is bound to piss someone here off and although it doesn't appear your intent, it's going to happen. Let's just leave it here.

No.86122
>>86117

>Asian religions aren't free of similar "hell" beliefs though

The main difference in Asian hells and Abrahamic hell is that in most Asian religions (Daoism, Buddhism, and Hinduism), hell is only a temporary condition out of which a being can be reincarnated, after a period of suffering and atonement. But the Abramic hell is forever.

No.86124
>>86122
There is no hell in Judaism.

No.86125
>>86113
I've found out the hard way a lot of people really don't want to believe in that "interconnectedness of all things" stuff. As far as my experiences go, it's not racism (I'm white as sour cream), it's just that they've been brought up in a culture that assumes humans are somehow removed from the natural world. They're scared of losing some imagined seat on some imagined scale so they just refuse to acknowledge it at all. That belief stems from Abrahamic religion, but it's so ingrained into Western society you can be raised in a staunchly atheist household and still have the "humans are special" attitude. It is tiring, having to explain that evolution has no pinnacle and it is not a ladder to agnostics and atheists who theoretically should be more accepting to the idea.

It depresses me a lot. Those sorts of beliefs gave rise to a lot of the environmental problems we're facing, as well as some other societal issues too probably. A self-centered worldview might work in small populations, but it's destructive when taken on a large scale. Eastern religion and philosophy has a much higher carrying capacity in general. We could all benefit from learning about those ideas and teaching them to kids, and it's a damn shame we're not open to that. Everyone needs to know that all life is sacred, and all life is equal, and all life should be respected.

Have I gone onto a tangent?

No.86127
>>86125

>Those sorts of beliefs gave rise to a lot of the environmental problems we're facing, as well as some other societal issues too probably.

I don't think that's necessarily true. All the Asian countries have their own share of environmental problems.

For instance, China is and has been facing a massive deforestation and subsequent flooding and erosion problem on the banks of the Yellow River:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/413717.stm

The lower stretches of the Ganges River in India, the very locus of Hindu worship, is one of the most horribly polluted rivers in the entire world:

http://www.wordfocus.com/word-ganges.html

And the Japanese, despite worldwide condemnation, continues to kill whales in the thousands on an annual basis, ostensibly for research purposes but much more likely for the Japanese domestic meat market, since other countries have demonstrated time and again over the past half a century that it is perfectly possible to research whales without killing them:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7188674.stm

The tendency of humans to destroy our environment and ultimately shoot ourselves in the foot in the long run doesn't seem to be limited to any particular creed or philosophy. It seems to stem, at least to me, from the limited ability of any individual human to grasp the full consequences of their actions, if those consequences aren't immediate.

Also, speaking as a Chinese with two Buddhists in my immediate family, the thing is that not all Buddhists are practicing Buddhists. While ordained monks or spirtually aware individuals do follow precepts regarding the sanctity of all life, and do not kill animals under any circumstance, the majority of the laymen do not view these precepts with any special regard; my Buddhist relatives condone the killing of animals for food or if the animals are pests like roaches or mosquitos.

No.86132
>>86124
No, but there is Gehenna. Not much better.

No.86138
File: 12837084165.png-(286.88KB, 1600x800, modern_vs_medieval.png)
86138
>>86125

No.86141
>>86046

>"I really don't mean to start a religious flamewar"

Well that's too bad Anon. It really is.

No.86157
>>86141
It is not a religious flamewar until someone comes and start threatenting everyone else with punishment of eternal flames because we don't join his religious faction.

No.86160
Look, all you fuckers best repent for your blasphemy, or my religion says you're gonna go to hell forever when you die.

Or when the Final Judgment arrives. Whichever comes first.

Either way, hell.

No.86162
>>86160
lol OK w/e

No.86165
>>86160
Can we repent by having an orgy or a sexy party?

No.86168
>>86165
Only if that sexy party is followed by three hours of confessing to a priest, son.

No.86170
>>86168
It'd be easier just to invite the priest to the orgy so he can be a reliable witness. It'd save time too.

No.86179
File: 128381156940.png-(301.09KB, 704x528, vlcsnap-2010-09-04-03h25m49s3.png)
86179
Why do I get the feeling that Avatar fans are trying too hard to to make Avatar super deep and mature thematic complex?

It's like the Avatroll...Only serious.

What's worse is that, if they have an interest in these themes, there's shows that actually tackle them.

No.86196
>>86179
No, the show is actually suprisingly deep and mature all on its own.

No.86198
Ok, who just opened this thread on 4chan!?

No.86199
File: 128390583181.png-(38.88KB, 352x288, fffuuu.png)
86199
>>86198



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