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File: 127522930349.png-(354.64KB, 613x1105, OBJECTION_by_Yukina-chun.png)
78156 No.78156
Got a problem with the way something was handled in the series? Have a complaint about the fandom? Or maybe you just want an all-out shipping war? Prepare your arguments, ready your objections, and let's debate about it. Just try to keep it above the belt.

Expand all images
No.78157
And since I started the thread, I'll go first. I noticed an Anon in another thread had a problem with Zuko's confidence in dealing with Azula during their Agni Kai. I'd argue that the way things were going, Zuko might have actually won if it weren't for two stupid moves. One on his part, one on Katara's. First, taunting Azula to shoot lightning at him. That's a no-no. You think he'd realize the Fatherlord would have informed his daughter that Zuko now possessed this new ability and that his goading her into using it would only backfire on him. And two... why the hell did Katara randomly decide to show up when she'd been out of harm's way for most of the fight? I know, plot point, but I still wish there was a logical explanation for that. But if she hadn't gotten in the way, and Zuko didn't get so damn cocky, I think there's a chance he could have won.

No.78162
Did you miss the part where he knocked her to the ground and had mastered the lightning redirection? Had she shot at him, he would have killed her. He did win.

No.78163
>>78157
What does it matter if Azula knew that Zuko could redirect lighting? She was going to do it.

That was a smart move because he's using her strength against her.

No.78164
>>78157
Azula was insane at this point, her dad's warning would have been ignored.
And what was Katara going to do? Stand a mile away? It wasn't like she was in the middle of the freaking fight. She was a spectator, and with the Fire Nation's obsession with honor, no one would expect a person to attack a member of the audience.

No.78165
>>78164

OK, how about a crazy lunatic who shouts "I'LL SHOW YOU LIGHTING"?

That should be a massive signal to keep your head down, not run out to have a look. And who said she needed to be a mile away, how about going back to where she was?

No.78167
So what do YOU think of Fire Lord Zuko helping serve at the Jasmine Dragon? Our little friend dietotaku once bitched "Fire Lords DO NOT SERVE TEA!!!" as a complaint about the finale. You think there's some validity in the statement or can the Fire Lord do whatever the Fire Lord damn well pleases even if it happens to be serving tea? Personally I stick strongly by the latter.

No.78168
>>78167

I think he's got more important things to be doing.

No.78175
>>78167
Eh, Zuko doesn't need to be working 24/7 (or whatever hours and weeks are in the Avatar world). And if he's taking a break, he's not one to demand formalities and palanquin rides and servants at his beck and call. That's Azula's thing.

Therefore dietotaku is an Azula sympathizer and should be imprisoned for crimes against the Fire Nation :3c

No.78176
>>78157

I have a feeling you're talking about my complaint, and that's not what I was talking about. If not, then ignore this sentence and take this as another whining.

I had a problem with Zuko saying "I can handle her. She's slipping," or something to that effect, implying that the only reason why he's able to beat her is because she is losing her sanity and not because he mastered firebending or anything like that, no. But because she's slipping. Had she not been "slipping," Zuko would have inevitably lost because she wouldn't have physically (and mentally) exhausted herself so quickly.

>>78168

It was just after the war. They were celebrating.

No.78178
>>78175

My thoughts exactly. Serving tea to his BFFs and helping Iroh are hardly "beneath" the kind of guy Zuko turned out to be. And the more I think about it the more this scene is proof of his development coming full circle. He's finally learned what it is to be part of a nakama.

(aka I'm reading way too much into things but whatever XD)

No.78198
>>78187

But she (likely) knows that he was able redirect lighting and once again outsmarted him.
As much as Azula underestimated his firebending, Zuko himself overestimated his redirecting skill.
Did he thought that she would try to hit him directly and give them a good chance to redirect?
What if she tried to hit the groud around him?

No.78257
Before the finale, I always figured Azula would shoot lighting toward Zuko, and Zuko would then redirect the lighting back at her. Azula, in either a very arrogant or crazed state, would then try to redirect the already redirected lighting herself without knowing how to do it properly, going off only what Ozai told her, and her seeing Zuko do it right beforehand. Then, not having heard Iroh's warning to Zuko or Zuko's warning to Aang about letting it go through the stomach and not the heart, she would have ended up frying her heart and that's how the fight would have ended. I'm not saying it had to end that way, and really it's a minor detail, but they kind of just threw that whole "if it goes through your heart and not your stomach ur pretty fucked lolk?" thing out there and never really did anything with it.

No.78259
>>78257
I had the same line of thought.

No.78263
>>78167

Given a choice between Fire Lord Iroh and Fire Lord Ozai, I would take Iroh every time.

That's about all that needs to be said on the topic of tea-serving I think.

No.78274
>>78257

I had the same criticism as you (why did they throw the stomach-not-heart thing out there) for a long time, but upon rewatching the finale, it looked to me like part of the reason Zuko fell was that he took the lightning to his heart and as such was not able to properly redirect it...? We see a big bolt of lightning fly up into the sky after he's struck, so I figure he tried to redirect but missed passing it through his stomach so...you know...injury. I dunno. That's what it looked like to me.

No.78277
>>78274

I think the official explanation, and they kinda mention this in the commentary, is that Zuko didn't redirect it correctly because of how he caught it, and was only able to toss out some of it (you see that when the bolt flies upward shortly after he catches it,) which is why he didn't die outright.

No.78279
>>78277

Gotcha. Thanks.

No.78281
I finished watching the series recently and I still don't get what was Zuko's intend with the Blue Spirit. Like, did he had a multiple personality disorder or what?

No.78339
I don't really know if this is a "debate," but what's up with how Katara and Sokka's skintone kept lightening as the series went on? Seriously, by the finale Katara seemed only slightly darker than the others, instead of the tone back in seasons 1 and 2.

I miss delicious brown girl

No.78361
>>78339
I wasn't so sure about this, but I did some visual comparisons and you seem to be right. It's subtle, but it's there. Of course, it could have just been the examples I chose.

Along those lines, I always felt that giving Katara and Sokka blue eyes was a bit of a whitewash.

No.78391
File: 127546174756.jpg-(683.31KB, 1600x900, color comparison.jpg)
78391
>>78339
>>78361

I'm compiling a more comprehensive comparison, but something I was telling Mari about Katara's skin-tone in particular. It doesn't get lighter, Piandao.org seriously messes with the colors of the show.

It's part of why I don't like to rely on the place for screencaps/references as much when it comes to color.

They stay delicious brown through their entire run, rest easy.

(Edit: Sorry, left is from my DVD, right is Piandao.org. Just want to make that clear.)

No.78393
File: 127546206761.gif-(210.52KB, 256x192, ron-shouting(c)[1].gif)
78393
>>78391
You're... you're right! I see it now! But you've got to believe me, I didn't know! I DIDN'T KNOOOOOOWWWW

No.78411
>>78167
Dietotaku is just a bitch who should be ignored. I like the idea of Zuko still serving tea because it keeps him humble, which in turn makes him a better Fire Lord. I like how that was addressed in the series, how Zuko told his father that banishment was actually good for him. Had he simply ascended to the throne, even if he thought the war was a bad idea, he wouldn't rule the same way he does now after having been out in the world and having the chance to see how people outside the palace are living.

>>78175
>spoiler
LOL!

>>78176
Yes it was your comment, and I see your point now. I didn't get what you were saying before.

>>78183
I might be able to accept these explanations. And the second one especially helps, since I was so annoyed about Katara just showing up for no reason.

>>78339
I noticed this too, but I didn't want to say anything lest I be accused of bringing up race debates anywhere but the movie thread.

>>78391
Wow, they really need to adjust the color there. But I think I've noticed it in a few actual episodes too, not just screenshots. Then again, there are times when it's hard to tell with the lighting used throughout the series.

No.78417
>>78167
>"Fire Lords DO NOT SERVE TEA!!!"
He does if he just lost a humiliating bet with Sokka!

No.78454
File: 127551516257.jpg-(79.98KB, 900x540, humilating.jpg)
78454
>>78417

>>78417

And he'll rub feet if he just lost a humiliating bet with Katara. Not quite Firelord at that point, but same idea.

No.78462
File: 12755303129.jpg-(90.21KB, 800x600, 258848 - Avatar_the_last_Airbender Jin MK.jpg)
78462
>>78167
Zuko's story in the second season wasn't just plot padding. While Zuko's clearly got better ideals than his father from the beginning of the series, he still has the potential to turn into a tyrant like his father or his sister due to his arrogance. His experiences in the second season humbled him and showed him the trials of being a peasant and a refugee. The arrogance of the Fire Nation and its Fire Lords is precisely the sort of thing that got the war started, with Sozin trying to export his cultural sophistication justifying his wars of genocide and conquest.

In seeing Zuko serving tea at the finale, we see that he has taken the lessons of his uncle and his experiences to heart, and that even though democracy hasn't exactly come to the world of Avatar, a wise and humble despot is precisely the thing that the Fire Nation needs.

TL;DR: Humility good. Arrogance bad. teagirls great.

No.78482
Was Aang's hair growth a metaphor for the onset of puberty?

Seriously. I've been thinking about this for days. What do you think +/a/?

No.78486
>>78482
Him not re-shaving, which he probably wanted to, until he could was one of those ways he had to hide who he was (to keep up the charade that he was dead) which was what he was so upset about.

Like him burning his glider.

No.78487
File: 127554143553.png-(225.17KB, 640x480, 12168707541.png)
78487
>>78482
mind=blown

No.78488
>>78486
Yes, but I believe we could also view at symbolically. If anything, the burning of the glider is even more symbolic: Aang must put away this child's toy, and deal with his problems in a mature way. In short, he must become a man.

No.78490
File: 127554317088.jpg-(29.27KB, 210x225, the-squeaky-voiced-teen-from-the-simpsons-139986.jpg)
78490
>>78488

It's time to put away childish things...and become a man!

No.78502
File: 127554974112.jpg-(155.39KB, 576x1280, 20060922.jpg)
78502
>>78488
>>78490
I've been waiting for an opportunity to post this again.

No.78758
>>78162>>78163
Point of order: Azula was crazy, not stupid.

I think the odds were good that she would not hit him directly but aim at the ground near his feet (superheated flagstone shrapnel for the win)) if Katara had not gotten her attention.

>>78167
Taking a vacation is permissable, and he may have had a meeting with the Earth King anyway.

No.82259
Sorry to resurrect the thread. I'm wondering about the show's creators and how aware they were of Zutarans. They seemed to be mocking them openly in the Ember Island Players, but then in the finale they almost seemed to spoonfeed subtext into hungry Zutaran mouths. Did they do it on purpose? Wouldn't it have made more sense for Toph to go with Zuko anyway?

No.82261
>>82259

They knew about Zutarans. Oh, but they knew. They even smashed together a bunch of fanart into a small movie just to parody them and showed it at SDCC that year.

No.82277
>>82259
>>Wouldn't it have made more sense for Toph to go with Zuko anyway?<<

I actually love that idea, but if the scenario repeated itself with Zuko taking the blow for Toph, he'd be a hell of a lot more fucked since Toph can't heal. :/

No.82278
I don't know about Toph. Azula is able to fly, she can become virtually invisible to her.
Katara is also more experienced in fighting Azula, she was kicking her ass in season 2 finale.

No.82284
File: 12792417538.jpg-(141.09KB, 943x598, smile 3.jpg)
82284
>>82259
Creators definitely knew. I just finished watching S3 episode commentary, Mike and Brian were pretty much openly mocking Zutarans. And shipping in general.

>>82278
Since Azula needs to fly by using BLUE JET ROCKETS that are pretty loud I doubt Azula becomes invisible to Toph's hearing. Toph just can't 'feel' Azula on the earth.

This is such a minor nitpick, but I really hate these smiles. This is all from the same episode.

No.82285
>>82284
:3

No.82287
>>82284
I always wanted to do a visual comparison of the different animation studios that worked on the show. Anyone know where I can find out info on which animation studio worked on which episodes?

No.82290
>>82287
http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/episode_guide.php

Look under "episode details". I'm pretty sure everything is done by two studios: JM Animation or Moi Animation.

They didn't do the last couple episodes because when the series ended the site pretty much stopped updating. You can just look in the credits for them if you have the DVDs; it's shown pretty clearly toward the end.

No.82296
>>82290
Guess I'll pass on making that chart then. Thanks for the link anyway.

No.82297
>>82287

From what I've noticed, Moi Animation seems to use more angular character designs.

No.82310
>>82290
>Look under "episode details". I'm pretty sure everything is done by two studios: JM Animation or Moi Animation.

Moi didn't come onboard until season 3. DR Movie and JM did the animation for the first two seasons. DR Movie is responsible for the hinky animation in episodes like Return to Omashu, The Chase, and Bitter Work. They also did the animation for The Guru, which was referenced above.

Taken from the credits:

The Boy In the Iceberg
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Avatar Returns
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Southern Air Temple
DR Movie

The Warriors of Kyoshi
JM Animation Co., LTD

The King of Omashu
DR Movie

Imprisoned
JM Animation Co., LTD

Winter Solstice, Part 1 (The Spirit World)
DR Movie

Winter Solstice, Part 2 (Avatar Roku)
DR Movie

The Waterbending Scroll
JM Animation Co., LTD

Jet
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Great Divide
DR Movie


The Storm
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Blue Spirit
DR Movie


The Fortuneteller
JM Animation Co., LTD

Bato of the Water Tribe
DR Movie

The Deserter
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Northern Air Temple
DR Movie

The Waterbending Master
JM Animation Co., LTD


The Siege of the North, Part 1
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Siege of the North, Part 2
DR Movie

The Avatar State
DR Movie

The Cave of Two Lovers
JM Animation Co., LTD

Return To Omashu
DR Movie

The Swamp
JM Animation Co., LTD

Avatar Day
DR Movie

The Blind Bandit
JM Animation Co., LTD

Zuko Alone
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Chase
DR Movie

Bitter Work
DR Movie

The Library
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Desert
DR Movie

The Serpent's Pass
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Drill
DR Movie

City of Walls And Secrets
JM Animation Co., LTD

Tales of Ba Sing Se
DR Movie

Appa's Lost Days
JM Animation Co., LTD

Lake Laogai
DR Movie

The Earth King
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Guru
DR Movie

The Crossroads of Destiny
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Awakening
Moi Animation

The Headband
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Painted Lady
Moi Animation

Sokka's Master
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Beach
Moi Animation

The Avatar And the Firelord
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Runaway
Moi Animation

The Puppetmaster
JM Animation Co., LTD

Nightmares And Daydreams
Moi Animation

The Day of Black Sun, Part 1: The Invasion
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Day of Black Sun, Part 2: The Eclipse
Moi Animation

The Western Air Temple
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Firebending Masters
Moi Animation

The Boiling Rock, Part 1
JM Animation Co., LTD

The Boiling Rock, Part 2
Moi Animation

The Southern Raiders
Moi Animation

The Ember Island Players
JM Animation Co., LTD

Sozin's Comet, Part 1: The Phoenix King
JM Animation Co., LTD

Sozin's Comet, Part 2: The Old Masters
Moi Animation

Sozin's Comet, Part 3: Into the Inferno
JM Animation Co., LTD

Sozin's Comet, Part 4: Avatar Aang
JM Animation Co., LTD

No.82311
>>82310
Most impressive!

>hinky animation
Despite this S2 is my favorite.

No.82313
OH. That reminds me. Was Hiroyuki Imaishi the one who did the flashbacks for the Great Divide?

No.82316
>>82313

He isn't listed in the credits.

No.82317
>>82313
No, the Zhang's version of the story is just an homage to the style he used in Dead Leaves. All of the animation was done in South Korea or Vancouver.

No.82320
Did they ever explain how bending is passed down?

Because I really don't think I like the idea that all of the future airbenders are gonna be Aang's descendants.

No.82321
>>82320

They did say that if Aang and Katara have kids, they'd be Waterbenders, Airbenders, or neither, so unless another population exists somewhere, or they start popping up out of the blue, all future Airbenders and Airbender Avatars will be directly descended from Aang.

It's possible, I suppose, Bending isn't fully a matter of genetics, if it's a matter of genetics at all.

No.82322
>>82313
...That's totally the guy that did FLCL/Gurren Lagann, right?

No.82323
>>82320

>Did they ever explain how bending is passed down?
An excerpt from <a href="http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/interviews.php?id=19">the interview that was posted 3+ years ago</a> on AvatarSpirit.net

<i>RM: Okay, next I know I'm going really left brained and you can call me a geek because I am, but in "The Fortuneteller" you have a pair of twins...kids...one is an earthbender and one isn't. So is bending genetic, or is it some sort of spiritual thing? How does it work?

BK: Mike and I just got new puppies. They're brothers. They have the same mother and father. Same litter. Mike's dog can just sit in a crate and be happy as a clam. My dog just loses all control...everything. Who knows why these things happen? They're beyond our full understanding.

MDD: Yeah, Katara's mom and dad weren't benders. Maybe it's a recessive gene. I've always seen it as more spiritual connections, though. A little bit mysterious...

BK: I mean we've definitely talked about it. I think, again, sometimes we might not know...it's more of what we don't want it to be. We didn't want it to be like there is a lineage...a royal family or something...and these people can bend and then there's everyone else as non-bending, people who never will. Some sort of caste system. Mike and I are more attracted to more of the flux type universe. The only constant is change, variation, that sorta thing. I'm sure it's a bunch of factors.

***Interviewers note: About 20 mins after the interview, Bryan came back to me and we spoke a little more about the basis of bending off recorder. He described bending as more of a talent. You have some genetic basis for potential, but you could go your whole life without developing the talent into ability. Some people have more inherent talent than others, while others with minimal inherent talent can still develop it through hard work and practice. He reiterated a connection to the spiritual energies is the underlying basis. How it manifests is based on upbringing and experience.

RM: So could Teo's people perhaps grow into the airbenders of the future?

BK: I think Teo's people are more refugees. They probably came together because they're not benders and really had no way to defend themselves. Then fell under this nutty guy who has his own skill and aura of authority. I don't think it's an ethnic group of non-benders, rather they were all just escaping the disasters of war.

MDD: Yeah, I think if you've gone through puberty and not found any bending abilities, you're probably not going to find them. I think it manifests early.

BK: Although that would make a pretty outrageous story. Some 80 year old guy...

MDD: "Wow, I never knew!"

BK: ...fire starts shooting out...

RM: I was just curious if the airbenders could just come back from the general population rather than necessarily having to come back through Aang or anyone else who came from the airbending lineage.

MDD: Aang is the last Airbender, so I don't think it's possible for Airbending to spontaneously develop in the general population.

RM: It seems like all the Air Nomads were benders. Did they exile everyone who didn't manifest the trait, or did they really have such a high percentage of born benders?

BK: We always have liked the idea of who will be a bender and who won't be to be kind of an ambiguous mystery, even to the people in the Avatar world. From early on we thought the Air Nomads would be all benders. Again it's like Mike was saying, it's more of a spiritual connection. But they have...they had...the smallest population. Earth Kingdom has the biggest population but the smallest percentage of benders. So yeah, there were these notions we kicked around that is wasn't going to be regimented or ruled through specific lineages. We liked the idea that each of the cultures have a different spiritual vantage point...coming at it from a different angle.

MDD: Then the Air Nomads would have been the most spiritual...the most connected to the spiritual energy of the Earth.

BK: But the most detached from society. More monastic.

RM: Did the Avatar pre-date other bending, or did bending predate the Avatar?

BK: We've definitely talked about that. But, in the event we ever did something with that, we'd rather not go into that. Mike and I for years have talked about that...over many a ping-pong game. We both find it really interesting, so we really don't want to just throw away something so integral to a story we might be telling.</i>

No.82324
File: 127926315212.jpg-(29.08KB, 444x250, DEAD_LEAVES-7_1101257743.jpg)
82324
>>82322
And Dead Leaves.

No.82326
>>82310

Just as a point of order, I believe it was explained in the commentaries that Moi Animation was the second studio all along. It was a subsidiary of DR Movie, that for whatever reason wasn't credited on its own until Book 3. I'm thinking it broke off and formed its own company, since they seem to be separate entities now.

No.82332
>>82259
Hell, if I had the put up with the Zutarians, I'd bait and mock them as much as I could too. I mean, even after all the "No guys, really, Katara and Zuko will not end up together. It's more likely that Appa and Momo will end up together." comments, they still couldn't take a hint. And then they had the nerve to throw a spoiled fanbrat tantrum and all-out insult the creators and their writing ability after the finale. Fuck that.

>>82284
I like the second one on Sokka and the one on Zuko.

No.82342
>>82332
>Hell, if I had the put up with the Zutarians, I'd bait and mock them as much as I could too. I mean, even after all the "No guys, really, Katara and Zuko will not end up together. It's more likely that Appa and Momo will end up together." comments, they still couldn't take a hint. And then they had the nerve to throw a spoiled fanbrat tantrum and all-out insult the creators and their writing ability after the finale. Fuck that.

Yeah they just took it way too far, Mike and Bryan had every right to troll the shit out of them. Weren't they even trying to animate their own version of the last episode at one point too?

No.82344
>>82342
Yeah, but I bet they found out it's a lot more work than they thought it would be and gave up. But if they ever do complete it, it'll just get trolled hard.

No.82465
>>82342
>>82344

I actually know someone involved with that project as a writer. The script's done, as is storyboarding, they're waiting now for the actual animation...which is I suspect where the whole thing will crumple like wet paper, but who knows. They do have at least one pretty good animator on board.

Either way, apparently my friend has yanked the project as hard away from Mai-bashing and Aang-bashing as is possible, so the result shouldn't be TOO unpalatable.

No.82467
>>82465

>They do have at least one pretty good animator on board.

You know what else had one animator? Avatar: The Dawning of Darkness.

>Either way, apparently my friend has yanked the project as hard away from Mai-bashing and Aang-bashing as is possible, so the result shouldn't be TOO unpalatable.

That's almost commendable, actually.

No.82470
>>82467
Commendable? Somebody call the Nobel committee!

No.82472
>>82467

Haha, well, I don't know if it'll ever get done. I only occasionally hear a tidbit of information about it when her excitement over some development overcomes her knowledge of my disinterest in the project.

No.82474
>>82465
>Either way, apparently my friend has yanked the project as hard away from Mai-bashing and Aang-bashing as is possible, so the result shouldn't be TOO unpalatable.
Well, maybe I'll give them an ounce of respect then. But I still hope this thing never sees the light of day.

No.82537
Following my admission that I had grown to hate Katara around to the same level of Sasuke, and receiving a good amount of backlash from it, I decided to rewatch the series to see if I'd just forgotten aspects of her character that I liked.

And I have to say, I still don't like her. Not to the level I used to, but I just find her character to be terribly bitter. Sure, potshots at Sokka are the core of the humor in most of the show, but while some of it is funny, other times it goes beyond sibling rivalry and comes off as being bitter for the sake of it, like during The Drill. I get she's under pressure, but "shut up Sokka, I know." would have been better than turning around to snap about how she's "sick of being told what to do all day."

So here's my debatable point, I think that the Southern Raiders, the episode where this mess is addressed, should have branched out into two episodes, to fully address what Katara was going through. Sure the Ember Island Players episode was funny, but be honest, it was designed as more of a roast of the series and the fandom than actually significant. Instead, replace it with a more concrete resolvement of the issues being addressed with Katara. The past with her mother, the feelings of distrust towards Zuko, even the bitterness that had begun to grow towards her own brother, get it all sorted out for the finale. Hell, if we need the calm before the storm, maybe remove a filler from the first half of season three like the Painted Lady, or not remove an episode at all.

No.82551
Is it just me, or does the front page look like a subtle shipping war these days? Nothing really serious, but I'm amused.

No.82557
>>82537
I'm not sure I see what you're getting at. Sure, Katara has her moments of nastiness, but I think maybe they stand out more with her because she spends a lot of the series coming off all sweetness and light, and when she does finally get fed up, the contrast enhances the effect. Much the same as Aang's existential crisis spot when Appa is missing; his jerkiosity doesn't really even reach the same levels of Sokka or Toph on a normal day, but because we're used to him being The Nice Guy, he seems that much more of a dick by comparison.

No.82559
>>82321
Perhaps I am fond of the "steampunk airbender" concept, but I suspect Airbending can be teachable on some level.

No.82573
>>82557
Perhaps her getting more and more nasty was supposed to be leading up to the Southern Raiders issue, but I think it just wasn't handled as well as Appa being lost. To me, it just seemed like she was getting bitter wasn't being addressed as more pushed under the rug, and from what I remember she never apologized for what she said to Sokka, even when she got back. I don't feel the conclusion went far enough to talk about this, and really needed to be longer to give better conclusion to the issues at hand. I understand she's supposed to be the sweet character, but don't skirt around fixing character flaws to make them seem irrelevant.

Frankly, if the whole shipping wars hadn't been an issue here, and Katara hadn't been elevated into some prize, I don't think I'd be alone in this. (And before anyone asks, NO. I'm not some butthurt Zutaran or some shit, I'm just not that fond of Kataang either, and I didn't like how it suddenly became the main focus of the fandom by the end, instead of the actual story. For god's sakes, dabbling with relationship bullcrap instead of tightening up the story is what made the last Harry Potter books that much worse than the earlier ones, did we really want to do that to Avatar?)

No.82575
File: 127946819334.gif-(0.98MB, 500x7477, SmallVertKataraComiccopy.gif)
82575
>>82573
Pic related.
To me, Katara is a genuinely strong female character. We are all used to see men getting agressive over something, but when a woman does that, she suddenly becomes a bitch.

No.82577
>>82575
You know, maybe it's less the issues I have with Katara, and more how it is reacted with in such overbearing terms by the fandom, as well as others. Do you want to discuss the issue, or do you just want to paint this in black and white terms?

If calling out Katara on her nasty behavior near the end and wanting a more satisfying conclusion to deal with it is equal to misogyny in your eyes, then frankly it's you who has the problem here. Katara is a strong character, no doubt about it, but she had major issues that had built and weren't properly dealt with, and ended up leaving me with a general dislike of her.

No.82578
>>82575

It's more that the shows makes excuses for the way she acts. When everyone else acts shitty to someone, there's a big "You're wrong!" scene where they learn the error of their ways. Katara never gets one of those.

No.82579
>>82575

Mmmmmmmm...Cunt flavored wrath.

No.82580
>>82537

All is forgiven from that scene because it contains the classic line "BEND THE SLURRY, WOMAN!"

No.82614
I had some mild feelings of dislike for Katara near the end of the series as well... or rather, how the series handled Katara. I think >>82578 puts it pretty well. Every other main character was either called out on their bullshit, or they came around to realize they should have acted better. Katara truly did not have that, which in turn could imply that she was given a free pass on some of her actions.

Moving on.

It's been said before, but I really hate the sound quality on lion turtle.

No.82632
Honestly, I just found Katara boring. Sometimes I feel like the only person who doesn't HAAAATE her, just....found her dull. I wish I didn't, but I did.

No.82634
>>82573
>>82578
>>82614
I think you all touch on something important here that I had completely missed up until now. Namely: The Unkind Words To Sokka. It is the one moment in the series where I feel Katara was utterly a dick, and never called out for it. (And I should point out that I don't think Katara's treatment of Zuko prior to 'The Southern Raiders' was at all out of line. Your mileage may vary.)

Also: I don't like it when people ship Toph with anyone. I like the idea that Toph is perfectly happy on her own while everyone around her is pairing off. I think this is much truer to her character than pining over Sokka (or Aang, or whoever).

No.82661
This other thing I have to say is much more minor than the other one.

I kind of liked Aang's look with hair more than without hair. Again, they're both fine, I just prefer him with hair.

No.82674
>>82634

I personally would have liked her to apologize to Sokka for that (and no, her pre-Southern Raiders behavior was absolutely not out of line), but I think that considering that the entire point of the episode was that revenge is a negative emotion and makes you act poorly, an explicit calling out of that behavior wasn't really necessary. It was already implied.

And as for apology...hell, I know I'm bad at apologizing to my siblings, even when I done fucked up.

No.82685
I agree with the whole Katara being a dick at times thing. In southern raiders didn't she claim that sokka didn't "Love mom the way I do" or something along those lines? Made me feel real sorry for Sokka.

No.82686
>>82685

Not much I can say about wanting to actually see Katara apologize, but there was a pretty well thought out reason regarding that outburst of hers, was it in this thread? Basically summed up her emotions in that ep as stemming from guilt more than just being bitch who doesn't care about her brother's feelings.

No.82692
Am I the only one who thought Suki was kind of a flat character? I don't dislike her or anything, but there's not much to like either. If they showed any dimension to her besides "cute girl warrior who sasses Sokka back", I missed it.

No.82695
File: 127966878577.gif-(2.84MB, 199x150, spider-suki.gif)
82695
>>82692
She's a minor character. She has no personal story arc to fulfill and there was no time to give her better development.
But I'm fine with that, she's still one of my favorite characters. She's hot , funny, takes part in some badass non-bending action, and IMHO she has one of the best and most iconic looks in the show.

No.83823
File: 128026682468.jpg-(158.76KB, 426x590, Still more manly than you.jpg)
83823
I must admit I think that Zuko would have made a terrible Fire Lord although he is well meaning at this point he still has really poor decision making skills every time he makes a chose he seems to always make the situation worse for almost all parties involved usually for the very people he is trying to help. He has also proven himself to be a terrible leader I mean when he was captain of his little ship all of his crew mates hated him and only tolerated him because of his uncle. Even at his best in Cross Roads of Destiny he only barley poised as a decent distraction for Azula, because the Dai Li and her were in control of that enter situation and of course most people agree that was the wrong chose.

No.83851
>>83823

One of the only issues I had with the finale was Iroh immediately starting up his tea shop. It's great that he gets to do what he truly wants with life, and I'd love to see him owning the Jasmine Dragon later on, but it just seems a bit ridiculous that he'd leave Zuko alone right after the war ended. I mean, Zuko's ending a 100 year long, propaganda-fueled war that the FN almost won after having sided with their biggest enemy (and remember the reaction to his "death" in the play) - there's going to be a shit ton of political turmoil - plus all the reparation demands and stuff from the WT and EK. Also, Zuko's lived the last 3 years of his life at sea away from all the politics at home, and while he's got great intentions and isn't a blood-thirty crazy tyrant, he's not exactly the smartest person around. Zuko really needs Iroh's help for the first year or so.

No.83860
File: 128029255654.png-(83.78KB, 250x333, mort1.png)
83860
I think the ending of avatar was great, and everyone who says that it was a cop out or out of nowhere is ignorant of why it went down that way. The way Aang spirit bended Ozai was great in that it was in character, Aang is a monk who's background consists of peaceful teaching. It also conveyed the message that not everything has to be resolved with violence thus teaching future generations to look for the peaceful solution. It also wasn't a "copout" as some so arrogantly put it, as every major event in the series was planned from the very beginning, meaning that Mike and Bryan have thought through many possible solutions and decided this was the best.

No.83862
>>83860
Couldn't have said it any better myself, Mort.

No.83866
>>83851
I think Mai can help Zuko out with some of the politics, but just because Iroh's retired doesn't mean he's going to stop giving out sage advice.

No.83912
>>83860
They should've had Aang meet the Lion-Turtle earlier; maybe in a dream, maybe in the spirit world, but in some form. The concept of Spirit-bending could have been alluded to then, and then the finale could've gone the way it did and there'd be no complaints. Well, that's not entirely true
>>83851
There'd be advisors, and he can always send Iroh a messenger hawk

No.83942
>>83866
Dude Zuko didn't listen to Iroh when he was there, and he is still just as stupid and rash at the end of the series as he ever was at the beginning.

No.83943
>>83942
>he is still just as stupid and rash at the end of the series as he ever was at the beginning
Uh, no.

No.83944
>>83942
rewatch the series

No.83945
>>83912

Yeah, but while plenty of those advisers will want to help, others will want to take advantage of Zuko's inexperience and idealism. And messenger hawks can be intercepted.

In the long run, I think Zuko will be a great Fire Lord because he actually gives a damn about his people, but near the beginning he really needs as many intelligent and trustworthy people around him as possible.

No.83956
File: 128033582277.jpg-(294.35KB, 1280x819, 1268321806308.jpg)
83956
>>83943
Really his 'magical field trips' at the end of the series were basically completely unnecessary the only one that was of any really importance was when he and Aang went to the Sun Warriors to learn fire bending and he almost kills the avatar there through his ignorance, I mean if the Sun Warriors had really been dead there would have been no one to check the traps then they would have just slowly died. Then there was the Boiling Rock fiasco in which he almost got himself and Sokka killed and captured repeatedly in fact if it wasn't for Sokka's insane brilliance which he did not know of at the time they would have been trapped the moment they got there, also if it wasn't for the miracle of Mai and Ty Lee betraying Azula, Sokka and Zuko would have died there as well and the only reason why any one except Katara survived his field trips was for the point of miraculously advancing the plot.

No.83958
>>83956
Except it was Sokka's idea to go to the boiling rock in the first place...

No.83960
>>83958
It was but Zuko was still an enabler who let Sokka go without carefully planning what to do first and heading out with bad information and poor equipment.

No.83971
>>83960
Alright, and what exactly would you take to Alcatraz set in the middle of a boiling ocean, in an era where technology does not exist?
And Mai/Ty Lee's betrayals weren't really miracles, so much as character advancement.
I mean, out of all the WHAT things in the series to be mad about, those two seem kind of silly.

No.83976
File: 128035336784.png-(140.26KB, 741x304, mort3.png)
83976
>>83956
NO YOU PLEBEIAN! THOSE TRIPS WERE COMPLETELY NECESSARY TO EXPLORE THE CHARACTERS PERSONALITIES, EMOTIONS AND BACK STORIES!

No.84002
File: 128036623696.jpg-(79.56KB, 688x547, This Shit Aint Logical.jpg)
84002
>>83971
Well there is always that little bastard who can fly and has god like powers would increase your chances, I mean they had absolutely no back up, that and there was no reason why it had to be done before you conquered/usurped control of the fire nation. And my point with the betrayals is that they were so critically important to Zuko's escape had Azula not shown up he would have been screwed, and she would have been sane in the finally and still had her royal fire nation guards and Dai Li agents instead of fighting Zuko alone. I mean if it wasn't for the stupid destiny says thing Zuko and Katara would have lost at the finally.
>>83976
Yes I will admit that those episodes did a brilliant job at exploring and developing the cast and advancing the plot but, that if we are thinking about this from the characters point of view these are all very bad ideas that could and should have gotten them all killed.

No.84023
File: 128037412256.png-(34.64KB, 307x305, mort7.png)
84023
>>84002
I reluctantly agree.

No.84032
>>84002
First of all, it's "finale". Second, if you think Zuko taking Aang to the Sun Warrior ruins was a bad idea, taking him to the Boiling Rock would have been even worse. IMO, taking Katara might have helped because she could have been able to temporarily freeze the boiling water if the gondola did get cut and they fell in, or if this wasn't a Y7 show, she could bend the boiling water to use against the guards. The field trips did seem a little forced, but they gave Zuko a chance to bond with everyone, and they even spoofed it in the end with Toph and Zuko. There's also no guarantee Azula wouldn't go a little crazy when she found out daddy didn't want her to come along on his "Burn the Earth Kingdom tour" or that Katara and Zuko would have definitely lost if she was still sane.

No.84043
File: 128037982063.jpg-(4.61KB, 120x126, nofun.jpg)
84043
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No.84085
File: 128041096932.jpg-(171.18KB, 600x332, Why Are You Mad.jpg)
84085
>>84032
Yeah, but there was no back up in any of his trips which made even the most sensible of them 'visiting the sun warriors' into a near lethally situation and they did not even bring Toph who can sense booby traps or any thing they were completely unprepared for any thing they were doing with the possible exception of the assassination. And as for the whole business with Azula it took a lot to drive her mad but loosing her support in one fall swoop to Zuko certainly made her fall to madness alot faster than otherwise and besides Zuko couldn't beat her when she was insane anyway, so you think he could beat her with Azula using self-control strategy and with a horde of highly trained minions he would go down faster than a ho with a crack problem.

No.84086
>>83823
I understand where you are coming from, but while Iroh himself is very openly exiling himself his contacts in the White Lotus Society are still on hand to advise the young Fire Lord (put Pindao on the books as Zuko's Personal Trainer for starters).

Meanwhile, the Consort Presumptive has had a few more years watching politics and balances out some of his worst personality traits (not to mention being far swifter to provide a reality check than Iroh ever was).

No.84096
File: 128041903299.jpg-(104.75KB, 472x577, 26131_332284352273_181532102273_4169461_8082653_n.jpg)
84096
>>84086
So basically what your saying is that best case scenario Zuko becomes a puppet for the mysterious group of really old dicks with a life expectancy of 15 more years. That's assuming he doesn't ignore their attempts to manipulate him and try to do his own stupid thing like he has done ALL throughout the series seriously he has about as much self control as Zhao.

No.84099
>>84085

Uh, Zuko WAS beating Azula until Azula got a cheap shot at Katara with lightning. Handily, even.

No.84103
>>84096
Not puppetmasters, advisors. There is a considerable difference as the former would seek to keep him dependent while the latter would want him to learn.

Or do you think the only options are for Zuko to rule as an autocrat with only his experience to go on or abdicate? Given that the only close contenders are either powerless, mad, or wants the job a lot less than he does the second option does not seem viable.

No.84105
File: 128042643655.jpg-(65.01KB, 499x485, 25959_355563732273_181532102273_4246854_1540111_n.jpg)
84105
>>84099
Yeah and why was she there? I mean Zuko's only shot at victory was a one on one Agni Kai so why would you bring in friends against an enemy who readily bends and breaks rules?
>>84103
Look no matter what your views on the White Lotus are you still have to admit that Zuko has always been far to quick to jump to conclusions and to ready to believe what anyone says, he constantly disregards the opinions of those around him and remained ignorant of his crew's opinions when he still had one and his since of diplomacy seems to be limited to ether a being a doormat or challenging people to death matches. No matter how good your hart is it does not make you a good leader, that requires a sound intellect, patience and wisdom none of these things Zuko actually has.

No.84107
>>84105

>I didn't watch the episode

No.84111
File: 128042770468.jpg-(57.06KB, 400x379, Joking.jpg)
84111
>>84107
Look all this things I mentioned about him were personality traits that could be seen in nearly every episode he was in.

No.84112
>>84105
>Yeah and why was she there? I mean Zuko's only shot at victory was a one on one Agni Kai so why would you bring in friends against an enemy who readily bends and breaks rules?
Recall that the initial plan was to double-team Azula, and Zuko decided on a duel only after noticing that she was visibly losing it.

Also, you make it sound like Zuko would have won if Azula did not target Katara. Azula may have gone mad, but I would give her a 50:50 chance at worst of being so far gone as to feed him lightening _directly_.

>Look no matter what your views on the White Lotus are you still have to admit that Zuko has always been far to quick to jump to conclusions and to ready to believe what anyone says, he constantly disregards the opinions of those around him and remained ignorant of his crew's opinions when he still had one and his since of diplomacy seems to be limited to ether a being a doormat or challenging people to death matches. No matter how good your hart is it does not make you a good leader, that requires a sound intellect, patience and wisdom none of these things Zuko actually has.
Zuko is not exactly stupid, especially as he did grow up a bit by the end of season 3. More to the point Mai could provide patience (along with dope slaps) and the OWL wisdom until he grows up rather more.

Iroh may have been a better choice objectivly, but he comes off as rather phobic about having authority and ceding the throne to Zuko _after_ being crowned would be harder than letting him take over off the bat while getting out of town.

No.84114
File: 128042992524.jpg-(55.67KB, 424x604, 20254_293326192273_181532102273_4039361_2901450_n.jpg)
84114
>>84112
Look I know the plan was to double team Azula but had they tried that shit and she still had her horde of guards or sanity there would have been no Agni Kai or available method for victory his plan for that day was FUBAR (Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition) and in that fight I still would have put money on Azula even without her sanity.

As far as him being fire lord goes although there weren't any better candidates than Iroh who had no successors. Zuko would still make a bad dictator despite all the advantages he got from the OWL, doesn't change that HE Zuko is a dumb-ass and basically what your saying is that anyone who received OWL support could have made a good dictator, and look at what they did to the Earth Kingdoms and the Northern Water Tribe.

No.84200
File: 128047700855.jpg-(19.26KB, 400x300, I_ain't_even_mad.jpg)
84200
>>84085
>>84032 here.
>Yeah, but there was no back up in any of his trips which made even the most sensible of them 'visiting the sun warriors' into a near lethally situation and they did not even bring Toph who can sense booby traps or any thing they were completely unprepared for any thing they were doing with the possible exception of the assassination.

I'll admit that was poor planning, but I blame the writers' formula of having Zuko bond with the Gaang one-on-one via field trips. And there's no guarantee Toph could sense all the booby-traps; one of them was Aang setting off a tripwire, she wouldn't be able to detect that. And what would she do when Zuko and Aang were making their trek to meet the Masters, just sit back and chill with the Sun Warriors?

>>84114
>and she still had her horde of guards
Crazy or not, I doubt she would have used them, since it was an Agni Kai and all, but if worse came to worse, Katara would have been fighting them off while Zuko took care of Azula. I was actually more worried during the Day of Black Sun when Zuko went to confront Ozai, because I thought he'd be calling his elite guards back into the room at any minute to grab his now "traitorous" son, but it turned out he'd rather mess with his mind and throw some lightning at him instead.

Basically what I'm getting from your arguments here is that you think Zuko is just hotheaded, stupid, and incompetent. While that may have been true to a degree during the first two seasons, I guess you missed all his character development in the third. He grew up, he changed. Yes, he will still have a lot of learning to do, but I think he can handle it. As I and others have pointed out, he will also have people with experience to back him up. If you have doubts about his abilities, fine, but you can't compare the more mature season three Zuko to irrational, tantrum-y season one Zuko. I think you're letting your dislike of his character blind you to his true potential.

No.84206
>>84200
Practicalities aside, I always found it a little hard to believe that the others - particularly Katara - would have let Aang and Zuko go off on their own at that point. Even if there wasn't anything for the rest of the gang to do, you'd expect that they would have insisted on coming along.

No.84210
>>84206
>particularly Katara
This. I mean, she just gave Zuko the "IF YOU HARM AANG I WILL END YOU" speech in the previous episode. That's why when the Sun Warrior chief said they were going to keep Aang and Zuko there, I almost believed him. My thought was "Oh shit, Katara's going to think Zuko betrayed them again and kidnapped Aang! He's fucking dead." But yeah, that required some HEAVY suspension of disbelief.

No.84217
>>84210
>>My thought was "Oh shit, Katara's going to think Zuko betrayed them again and kidnapped Aang! He's fucking dead." But yeah, that required some HEAVY suspension of disbelief.

Or just another pace and development of the season. It could've worked as a mini-arc. I was a bit disappointed of how season 3 worked, particularly the Dragons. I wanted to see Aang train and learn firebending, not having it downloaded and installed like this was a rainbow-flamey version of Matrix.

"The Firebending Masters" had great ideas to expand the world but it's a bit sad it had to be compressed in a single episode.

No.84222
File: 128050928793.jpg-(80.45KB, 500x381, 1270058769954.jpg)
84222
>>84200
Look as far as the fight with Azula goes the only reason she excepted those terms was because she was out of her mind which also greatly impeded her fighting ability, but that is a minor side note the other times Zuko pulls shit like that against her she declines his challenge and finds someway to rather solidly shut down his offense also she and Ozai are two different people with different methods to assume they would act the same is a rather large logical stretch.

As for Zuko I must admit I was a fan of his but that still doesn't mean I think he would be good at everything and leading seems to be one of his weakest points. Although he matured greatly as the show progressed specifically during the last season he still seemed to have the same deep faults that prevented him from properly leading anyone. That being said dogs incredible at finding people and are ferociously loyal but that doesn't mean I want one for president.

No.84224
>>84114
>Look I know the plan was to double team Azula but had they tried that shit and she still had her horde of guards or sanity there would have been no Agni Kai or available method for victory his plan for that day was FUBAR (Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition) and in that fight I still would have put money on Azula even without her sanity.

Given the need to deal with Ozai, the Airship Fleet, and Ba Sing Sei; what were the options for keeping Azula from regrouping things?

>As far as him being fire lord goes although there weren't any better candidates than Iroh who had no successors. Zuko would still make a bad dictator despite all the advantages he got from the OWL, doesn't change that HE Zuko is a dumb-ass and basically what your saying is that anyone who received OWL support could have made a good dictator, and look at what they did to the Earth Kingdoms and the Northern Water Tribe.

In short, you consider Zuko an abysmal incompetent as opposed to less seasoned than Iroh. I cannot agree with the former, had Azula been sane and non-sociopathic I think she would be the better option but the Zuzu is an improvement over the likes of the Earth King.

And what makes you think the OWL had any pull in the Earth Kingdom outside of Omashu?

>>84206
Had he not been visibly powerless, I would agree wholeheartedly. As it stands I would have thought it wise to work in at least a brief scene of Aang reassuring Katara.

No.84391
File: 128070291013.jpg-(65.44KB, 565x640, 1269909615976.jpg)
84391
>>84224
Look given that Sokka, Toph and Suki did a rather splendid job of exterminating the zeppelin air fleet I doubt that they would ever be repaired or reused even if they were the only reason why they were devastating to began with is the Sozin's Comet. As far as Ozai is concerned Aang dealt with him in a rather permanent soul rapey way so I doubt he will ever be a threat again. And Ba Sing Sei was conquered effortlessly by the OWL at the height of FN's power. So you should be able to see that she couldn't effectively reclaim any of this things there was no pressing need to deal with her at the time of the comet.

And as far as Iroh goes he was a seasoned general before he decided he had his break-down and he still commanded the respect of the majority of the Fire Nation after, also he proved to be the most diplomatic person in ATLA. And I do agree that Azula would have been a better Fire Lord, but she had positioned herself against the Avatar so the throne would have to be denied her simply because she was the 'face of the enemy' it also didn't help that she lost her sanity in the end.

No.84393
>>84391

For fucks sake, give it a rest already.

God.

No.84469
>>84112
It was clearly obvious Azula was going to lose, Azula KNEW she was going to lose which is why she was desperate and did what she did.

You're second guessing what the show tries to BLATANTLY TELL YOU without breaking the 4th wall. Zuko does very well against her in the fight. It's mentioned she can't take them both...really don't know how much more you need to see.

You've put Azula on a pedestal, she wasn't invincible in the season 2 finale, she gets bested several times in that fight and she was at her peak.

You're just refusing to accept the truth because of how much you like Azula.

No.84471
>>84469

I'm a huge Azula fan too but I have no problem admitting she's not invincible. Katara was kicking her ass in episode 220 and Zuko was at least as good as her (if not slightly better) in 316.

No.84520
To all the people who want some "haha our ship won" thing designed to piss off Zutarans in the new show, besides the actual existence of Tenzin?

Stop it. This has gone beyond stupid. Do you REALLY want to dredge up the shipping wars that made discussion of the last show nearly impossible without some giant shitfest, (oustide of selective circles)and do it to ANOTHER SHOW TOO?

And don't give me this shit about "but the Zutarans are doing it too, so it's okay." You keep saying you're better fans than them, but you end up saying the exact same asinine bullshit just with the bald guy and the emo switched places. Yes, it was funny to make jokes about how Zutara wouldn't work and shit. But that was two years ago. Now? It's stale, and it's time to move on. Prove you're better than the Zutarans, and let it go.

And I swear to God, if ANYONE says I'm saying this because I'm some secret Zutaran myself...

No.84526
File: 128083507890.png-(1.57MB, 600x2061, SPOILERS_Zuko's_Great_Idea_by_SractheNinja.png)
84526
>>84520
I don't go around looking for Zutarians to rub this in their face, but to all the whiny bitches out there throwing a tantrum and starting up their Mai and Aang hate again? You'd better believe I'm going to mock them and insult them hard. I'm sick of this bullshit. The Avatar fandom was the first fandom where I found shipping wars of this proportion and it really drove me nuts, to the point where I could hardly stand to see Katara and Zuko interacting at all, be it in the show or innocent fanart, simple because of the Zutards' idiotic need to see PROOF, PROOF EVERYWHERE! It makes me mad that almost every time I see shipping fanart of the canon pairings, or ANY artwork of Mai, there's always some Zutard making butthurt remarks. Same thing with music videos, etc. They need to LET THE FUCKING THING GO ALREADY and just enjoy their fanon. You can say that I'm no better than they are for insulting them, but I don't care. I'm not the one hating on other characters, bashing the creators, and throwing hissy fits over a stupid ship. I'm a Tyzula fan, but I'm not BAWWW-ing that it didn't happen or trying to find serious proof that they really had a relationship on the show. Canon Zutards are a cancer on the fandom.

No.84531
>>84520

>And I swear to God, if ANYONE says I'm saying this because I'm some secret Zutaran myself...

You're just some secret Zutarian...

No.84546
>>84469
Never claimed she was not losing at that point, just that Zuko inviting a lightining attack had a real good chance of backfiring as she did not need to strike him to hurt him badly enough to gain an advantage... and being coherent enough to aim for Katara means she was coherent enough to think of it as well
>>84520
I understand where you are coming from, I really do... but the number of Canon!Zutarans that _instantly_ thought of adultry or abandonment to 'fix' the horror of Katara and Aang actualy breeding means the shipwars had already restarted.

No.84573
>>84526

THIS.

No.84608
>>84520
Kataang was the obvious outcome since the first 10 minutes of episode #1, I can't believe how [strike]deluded[/strike] distracted someone would have to be to actually believe Zutara "would happen".

So Zutards get what they deserve. And hey, I like the Zutarian pairing because "exotic dark skinned girl with spoiled rich guy with issues in a love-hate relationship" is a big fetish of mine. True story, I wrote OC stories about it. But I would have to be really blind to think Bryke would go that way just to please my taste. So if someone wants to compromise their enjoyment of a cartoon by labelling themselves as zealous guardians of an hypothetical pairing, it's their fault for being such a naive egotist.

Zutarians acted just like those demented otaku in Japan that stopped reading Kannagi when it was revealed the protagonist had a boyfriend in the past and might not be a virgin.

TL;DR: Kataang was obvious since the beginning and expecting otherwise was pointless.

No.84609
>>84608
This so hard. The only reason why I can think that so many people expected Zutara to happen was 1. Internet fandum. You get a few people who want to pair these two characters up, who then proceed to write lengthy essays and make an obsessive series of videos devoted to finding PROOF and other fans begin to wonder, especially if they're new to the series. As the pairing gains popularity, they start bugging the creators about it. When I saw that question on the boxed set of book one asking if Katara and Zuko would hook up, my reaction was literally like "Lolwut? Where'd they come up with that idea?" This brings us to 2. After trying to drop subtle and not-so-subtle hints that Zutara was never going to happen ("Appa and Momo" relationship, "Kataang was in the show's DNA from the very beginning") the diehard Zutards STILL weren't getting it, so that's when the creators decided to just troll them for fun, giving those vague "wait and see" comments. Add in things like Nick Magazine treating Zutara as a legitimate possibility (that "Into the Fire Nation" issue where they said Katara would end up with Aang or Zuko, not neither) and Aang's need to "let go" of his worldly attachments... and there you go. True, more people should have realized the obvious, but the diehards were so deluded they managed to fool others. And while the trolling may have been funny, I wish they had chose not to acknowledge Zutara as a possibility at all. Why should one crackship get favored above all others? Like Tokka, for example. Not a fan of it really, but there was a LOT more evidence, namely that Toph really DID like Sokka, but Sokka was just oblivious, whereas neither Katara nor Zuko ever even thought about having romantic relations with the other for a minute.

tl;dr Kataang was obvious to everyone but those who deluded themselves and others.

No.84610
>>84609
And I guess Tokka isn't really a "crackship" by that definition, but you get what I was trying to say.

No.84631
>>84608
>>84609
This isn't about the idiocy of Zutarans, it's about being the better person and not acting childish like they do.

No.84776
>>84631
See, I don't really think that's fair. You can't really blame Mike and Bryan for Zutarans being the aspergers sufferers of the Avatar fandom.

Let me explain.

You know how you tend to give your friends shit. Like, you'll call them up if they're late for something (like meeting for dinner or a movie or whatnot), and you'll say something like "Hey assface, were the fuck are you!?"

You're not saying that to be mean of cruel, You're just giving your buddy a bit of shit and joking around with them.They understand that you don't really dislike them, or disrespect them. They understand that you don't really think they're an 'assface'.

Problem is, if you have a friend that has aspergers (which, for those who don't know, is basicly a form of social retardation in which you just don't "get" basic social interactions) they could end up getting offended at your "assface" remark. Thinking that you really do hate them and, in fact, think you have a face that resembles an ass. They then hang up on you and don't communicate with you again for three months because they honestly didn't get that you where just having fun with them in a friendly way and took honest offense to what you said.

That's basically the relationship Mike and Bryan have with the Zutarans. They're just giving them some shit, having a laugh with them that any rational human being would "get" and laugh along with them.

In other words...

It's not Mike and Bryan's fault that Zutarans aren't rational reasonable human beings that don't understand either basic fundamental human interactions or humor.

No.84785
>>84631
Even Mike and Bryan troll the Zutards. Where is your argument now?

No.84805
>Zutara
Ember Island Players man, its all Ember Island Players

No.84840
File: 128122675357.jpg-(46.75KB, 720x480, 699.jpg)
84840
>>84631

Well, sometimes we get tired of being obligated to take the moral high road. Why should we have to stand there and take their shit because if we defend ourselves we'll "look bad"? It's not our fault they're a bunch of manipulative crybabies who live and die by the Wounded Gazelle Gambit.

No.84844
You know who I just don't get? Dietotaku. I browse around CAPSLOCK: ATLA on LiveJournal and I see her post a lot; ninety percent of the time, she acts exactly like everybody else there. She likes the show, she likes making fun of the show, she makes funny stupid jokes, and she generally gets along with everybody. Now and then she'll mention enjoying Zutara but that's certainly not a crime. Then out of nowhere she'll say something like, "In my headcanon Aang couldn't please Katara sexually and was oblivious so she sneaked off to have buttsex with Zuko every night." Or she'll compare Bryke making Kataang canon to them pissing in her cereal. Or she'll say any number of other irrationally spiteful things. What the fuck? How is it that someone can act so lighthearted and friendly one minute suddenly enter bitchmode at the drop of a hat? It all confuses and angers me and it sours my view of her even when she's being nice.

No.84848
>>84844
I don't think we'll ever understand Dietotaku. I mean, she's one who was able to fanwank about fucking My Little Ponies.

No.84852
>>84848
>fucking My Little Ponies
Geeze. I mean, I knew her sexual interests might be a little twisted, seeing as she likes Zutara, but wow. This one takes the cake. Yes, I know exactly what you meant. I am deliberately twisting your wording for my own sick amusement.

No.84864
>>84844
>>How is it that someone can act so lighthearted and friendly one minute suddenly enter bitchmode at the drop of a hat?

Never been married, right?

Girls, man, girls make strong emotional relationships around concepts and have a wider perception of emotional nuances.

We guys don't get it because we don't put that much emotional investment in stuff. On the other hand, that helps cope with frustration.

There's scientific research explaining the subject but you can figure out how these conducts would've appeared as adaptative tools for survival to our species...

Pro tip: Stay away from fangirls, they can drive you crazy if you don't know where to draw a line. Fanboys are just as obnoxious, but it's easier to ger rid of them of they don't go away by themsleves.

No.84867
>>84864
>gender stereotypes
lol

No.84874
>>84867

>gender stereotypes that just happen to be 100% accurate in this situation

lol x2

No.84875
File: 128125362891.jpg-(39.36KB, 450x338, Oh_you!.jpg)
84875
>>84874

No.84876
>>84844

Seriously. I've seen her act like a normal person to the point where sometimes I wanna like her a little, but no amount of funny or easygoing can erase the discomfort I feel every time I see her username. I just know her too well for being a screaming douchebag Zootard.

No.84877
File: 128125573167.jpg-(41.92KB, 503x352, booty warrior.jpg)
84877
>>84874
Nope, nuh-uh. Not at all.

No.84878
>>84874
Eh, I was under the impression that capslock was mostly females anyway. So you can't really explain one user's irrational behaviour as LOL WOMEN.

No.84887
>>84878
>> So you can't really explain one user's irrational behaviour as LOL WOMEN.

That's why the explanation applies to more people than just one.

No.84893
>>84844

Seriously. She's usually a pretty great member of capslock_atla--funny, makes clever posts, blah blah blah. But like, when the Korra thing came out, that she was Aang and Katara's kid? It's like an entirely new person emerged from the easygoing fan we normally see, this completely rabid, bitter, insult-flinging shipper. It's just so Jekyll and Hyde, especially because she's not just a Zutarian who, you know, enjoys the pairing, pokes fun at canon, etc...she takes it all the way there. Like, full-on insulting Bryke, loves to nurse her own imagined wounds because bawwww Kataang and Maiko, lashes out at people pointing out her batshittery...it's weird.

No.84896
>>84893

I wonder what goes on tbrough her head. Shit, I wonder what her reacton was to them confirming it and saying that Katara being the mother was obvious. Oh wait, she probally chalked it up to Mike and Bryan failing at romance and rubbing the ending in her face (when really it's more like Mike and Bryan are doing what they always do and she's rubbing her own face in her own issues.)

Slight correction, though. Korra is the new Avatar, and Aang's reincarnation. Tenzin is Aang and Katara's son.

No.84899
>>84890
>>other females there don't act like that.

But they do. I knew someone who is a Sokkla shipper, and I had to stop talking to her for that reason. One moment she'd be all nice and reasonable, until the moment Tyzula or the finale was mentioned, she became the "rabid, bitter, insult-flinging shipper."

No.84900
>>84896

Oh, dur. Thanks for the correction.

No.84904
File: 128131015134.png-(150.83KB, 332x647, ohgee.png)
84904
>>84899
>rabid sokkla shipper

That sounds like a unique and strange beast. Clearly she must represent females everywhere.

No.84905
>>84899

Do you happen t'mean the rabid Sokkla shipper that was defending Jackie Diaz on her page? Serious, hardcore Sokkla shippers are pretty rare, you never know.

No.84906
There was a hardcore Sokkla shipper on capslock_atla that started bitching about capslock always making Azula gay when someone edited some HIBY pages and ended with Azula demanding a threesome with Mai and Ty Lee.

No.84907
>>84906
I'd be demanding threesomes with Ty Lee and Mai, too, if I had to deal with HIBY!Sokka. They're manlier than he.

No.84909
>>84906

Yeah, nayara_malfoy/neuron_muerta. She also bashed on Suki and Ty Lee a lot. (Though after talking to her via PM several months back to clear up a misunderstanding on F!S she proved herself to be slightly more mature than I gave her credit for. At least enough to have a serious discussion and sort stuff out.)

No.84910
>>84904
that was just one example, try telling any Death Note fangirl that DN is a predictable and boring manga.
You don't even need to mention how Gary-Stu the protagonist is to get them rabid-angry.

No.84914
>>84910

Hardcore fanboys are just as crazy retarded - just about different things.

No.84917
>>84914
That was exactly my point:

>>Fanboys are just as obnoxious, but it's easier to ger rid of them if they don't go away by themselves.

No.84918
>>84917

You've honestly never run into any obnoxious fanboys who never shut the hell up over whatever trivial bullshit they're completely obsessed about? Just look at the creepier sci-fi and comic fanboys. This expands to outside of fandom - Glenn Beck will never shut up with his obnoxious dumbassery no matter how much we wish he would.

Insane, never-ending obnoxiousness is not at all limited to women.

No.84924
>>84914

Hardcore stat fanatics on gaming forums. That is all.

No.84925
>>84918
Yes, I have, but it's always been easier (to me) to get rid of them than the girls. With the guys is usually "hey man it's OK but I don't care, nothing personal" and that's it, but with girls it most likely ends with drama and them insulting me and stuff.

But that's my personal experience, y'know? I don't know yours but you seem to know more male fans than I do so you're probably right.

Then again:
>>Insane, never-ending obnoxiousness is not at all limited to women.
Agreed. I never intended to say otherwise, sorry if it seemed so.

No.84926
>>84910

Man, I'm not really a big DN fan, but wasn't the protagonist pretty clearly laid out as an insane, inhuman, god-complexed monster? I wouldn't call that a Gary Stu. Good lucks and smarts does not a Gary Stu make.

No.84928
>>84925

>Yes, I have, but it's always been easier (to me) to get rid of them than the girls. With the guys is usually "hey man it's OK but I don't care, nothing personal" and that's it, but with girls it most likely ends with drama and them insulting me and stuff.

I actually have an easier time blowing off rabid fangirls than rabid fanboys. Maybe it's just a communication thing since I'm a chick.

>Agreed. I never intended to say otherwise, sorry if it seemed so.

No problem. I was just reading through some sexist shit on another site, so I was being over-testy about it out of irritation. My apologies as well.

No.84931
>>84925
It's hard not to sound sexist when you start off with, "Never been married, right?" and go on to cite how cavewoman genes make girls all touchy-feely.

Anyway, my point is that Dietotaku is visibly a aberration among the other members of that particular online community. If she were nothing more than another rabid Zutarian who couldn't shut up about it, I'd just write her off as another crazy. But the fact that she's normally so agreeable but prone to bouts of incredible venom just fizzles my brain.

Also, she's said that Aang's a pussy for not sacrificing his values and killing Ozai (thus insulting both Batman and Superman by extension) and claims that the big man's just as dangerous behind bars. Maybe someone can dredge up one of her rants, but that makes no sense to me. Ozai possesses no political power, poses no physical threat, and is very unlikely to ever escape. Sure, there must be loyalists, but wouldn't they still be a problem even if he died? I fail to see her reasoning.

No.84932
>>84926
>> Good lucks and smarts does not a Gary Stu make.

No, but having the writer make up rules and twisting the context's laws so the protagonist always gets away with everything does.

You know, like in Twilight.

No.84933
>>84932
That falls under the grounds of smart. He not a gary stu at all, he's a fucking monster, but a smart one.

No.84941
>>84933
Smart how? I mean, I read the thing until the time skip and him being "smart" was based all around everyone else being plain idiots, and the writer filling in with deus-ex-machina rules and more rules and more rules to give him advantages whenever he was in a dead end.

You can't tell me losing and recovering memory at will is not a Gary-Stu-level power.

No.84942
File: 128133702513.jpg-(38.40KB, 300x360, dexter13.jpg)
84942
>>84933
>>he's a fucking monster, but a smart one.

Shhh. Don't talk about me.

No.84943
File: 128133705421.jpg-(100.64KB, 382x787, sue.jpg)
84943
Ever notice that whenever someone's trying to convince someone else that a certain character in a "Sue" they only list the characters positive characteristics and completely ignore any and all of the negative in order to prove their point.

No.84944
>>84941
So your entire concept of Sueness revolves around the powers they have? That's sensical and wise.

No.84945
>>84943
We're talking about a guy who is not only supposedly "super brilliant" but also a "tennis super star" for a single chapter just for the sake of showing off, who ends being a "god" at the end of the story.

Yep, totally not Bella Swan.

No.84947
>>84944
>>So your entire concept of Sueness revolves around the powers they have?
Nah, it's more like:
a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_sue

But in DN case having the author making up complex and contradictory rules that came up whenever Light needed them was a huge turn-off. Light didn't take advantage a of set of existing rules and avoided the risks of dangerous rules, but instead we had the author introducing more and more positive rules to counter any negative rules whenever a dead end was reached on his story, and later abandoning rules that were not longer needed.

It'd be like having J.K. Rowling make spells up exclusively for Harry that only Harry can perform and that counter and/or surpass any other spells anyone else could do because Harry's not only a "chosen one" but also will be a "god of wizards". Had that happened, I'd have stopped reading the books just as I stopped reading DN.

That's my stance, and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. People thinking Light was "brilliant" doesn't tell much about Light's intelligence, but it says a lot about people.

No.84949
>>84945
That's to display the fact that he hates losing, and is an egotist.

No.84950
>>84947
They stopped that after a few books. It was only because Ryu is like that. But again, you're strictly ignoring his flaws, and the fact that he's portrayed negatively.

No.84951
>>84947
But that's the thing. Light wasn't brilliant. He was a very intelligent high school student, but when push came to shove, he did a whole fucking lot of really really stupid shit. He was not brilliant, though he was smart.

He also had a god-complex, was insane, and a mass-murderer. Almost comparable to Azula, if you think about it. Even down to the "constantly adding new powers."
Sure, she kept the consistent "control over fire," but the way she used it changed depending on what she needed.
Too far to jump to a trolley? oh shit look at that shes flying oh my shit.
Regular fire not cutting it? LIGHTNING UP IN THIS BITCH.
She needs to lie about something? Look at that, suddenly she can even fool a living lie-detector.
Her only downsides were that she wasn't very bright(tactical, yes, but ruling by fear is not smart), was insane, and...yeah, that's about it. And pretty much no one considers Azula a Sue.

Holy shit I'm exhausted I bet this is just rambling garbage, but I took the time to type it up, I'm postin' it.

No.84952
>>84951
That summed it up pretty well actually.

No.84953
>>84950
>>you're strictly ignoring his flaws, and the fact that he's portrayed negatively.

But I think he's a negative, flawed character, that's why I stopped reading the whole thing. I was under the impression that in the other side, DN fans were the ones ignoring his flaws as they kept preaching of how supposedly smart the whole thing was and how it was some kind of must-read series.

So maybe I was wrong. Or maybe we're both right but just have different ways to express similar ideas.

>>84951
Gladly back to Avatar. Agreed on mostly everything about Azula. But she was an antagonist, they play by different rules. And lightning, we see Azula doing this like the second time she's seen and the first time she's properly introduced iirc. Later we learn both Iroh and Ozai know of this technique too and Zuko gets a good grasp at redirecting it. I think that makes a difference.

Now moving on with the debate, was Toph a Sue yes or no?

No.84955
File: 128134414543.jpg-(108.62KB, 1280x1024, toph about to die.jpg)
84955
>>84953
>But I think he's a negative, flawed character, that's why I stopped reading the whole thing. I was under the impression that in the other side, DN fans were the ones ignoring his flaws as they kept preaching of how supposedly smart the whole thing was and how it was some kind of must-read series.

I guess that makes sense.

>But she was an antagonist, they play by different rules.

So was Light.

>moving on with the debate

FUCK! I already typed all of this and forgot to copy and paste. Whatever I'll post anyway.

>Is toph a sue?

I was about to say yes, but then I thought about it. She had parent issues, but that's too common of a character flaw, so that shouldn't be counted. She's really fucking tough, strong and unbreakable, so I guess that makes her a sue. But wait, the whole tough act was just over compensation for how she was babied throughout her youth, and she still a kid who is afraid of her own mortality and is infact breakable. As shown here.

No.84956
>>84955
Did anyone really think she was going to die in this scene? I think I've seen a few people say they believed that. And for some reason, Toph was a popular guess when it came to "Which of the main characters might be killed in the finale?" but honestly, I knew that would never happen. When Aang got shot down, that was a surprise, but he was okay in the end. The only main characters I thought might actually die were Ozai and Azula, though I knew Azula was a stretch. It would be easy to kill off the main baddie in a series, but to do it to a 14-year-old girl, no matter how villainous, would be difficult. I'm satisfied with the end results, though I would have liked it if they specified in the show that she was taken to an asylum.

No.84957
>>84956
No, I knew she waasn't going to die, you're missing my point. SHE thought she was going to die. When the time came, Sokka manned the fuck up and just accepted it and told Toph "This looks like the end.". Toph on the other hand, showed something contradictory to all assumptions of her personality before the finale, real emotion.

No.84965
>>84957
I wasn't missing your point, that wasn't a response to what you wrote. It just reminded me.



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