What do you think Ozai was like when he was younger?

>>48893
A total dork.

>>48893
I actually imagine him as being a little Zuko-like. He was soft and a litle goofy though with all the pressure being placed on him to live up to Iroh(who was still in good at the time)'s name and his father's expectations he was doomed to turn out how he did. This would explain how he acts toward his children. He pushes them and while he looks down on Zuko it's clear he still favors the boy, not just because it's his son but because Zuko is very much like himself. A little weak though with potential to be great.

A lot of people hated Book 3 and Mike and Bryan's writing because they felt Ozai to be completley one-dimensional as a character; villain to the point of being boring.

I disagree and instead suggest that Ozai was the one and only truly evil character in Avatar.

Sozin was dangerously ambitious, but not necessarily evil. He made a plan and committed to it. Yeah, what he did was genocide, but look at his reasoning. Once he began his campaign of spreading prosperity, Avatar Roku stopped his vision. Sozin didn't believe that any one individual should have such power and sought to remedy that. His actions were wicked and unethical, but were his intentions truly evil?

Azula is manipulative, selfish, tyrannical, and cruel - but is she actually evil? Everything she does is for her own desires. She is inconsiderate of others and uses them as means to her ends, but we never see her commit evil for evil's sake. If anything, Azula is just the darker side of narcissism.

Ozai is purely twisted. Unlike his forefathers, he didn't wage war for a larger purpose - he waged war just for war. Ozai had no intentions of sparing any Earth, Water, or Air nation citizens or soldiers. He shows a lack of sentiment for even his own citizens and soldiers, willing to send the youngest of his people in as canon fodder just to kill a group of Earthbenders. Instead of standing by his brother's side after he had lost everything, he connived and plotted to dethrone him. He pledged to his ailing father that Iroh was weak and unfit to rule and, even more disturbing, had every intention of paying the price of his first born son for his treachery. He allowed his own wife to kill his own father. For power.

Even though we see very little of Ozai, there's a lot of thought he generates. Even through all this, it makes me wonder if he's really evil of it he's just a product of being the second born son in a royal family at war. Was being evil the only way he could survive? Was he like Azula, desperately overcompensating to get out of his older brother's shadow? Azulon seems very forward in his discipline and honor, so how did Ozai turn out to be so...evil?

ITT, we overthink the motivations of a character that was supposed to be a republic serial villain.

>>48901

Agreed. Ozai is a fascinating character. We never got to see too much of him, instead we saw the outcome of his acctions and decitions.

They call him one-dimensional because all that we know of him is that he's fucking evil, but that does not make him a bad character.

Had Nickelodeon not fucked with Avatar so much, I would've loved to see one of those specials dedicated to both Iroh and Ozai, and what made them what they were.

>>48901

The only problem is, Azula was entirely motivated with trying to please her father. He's the only one that actually meant anything to her. Part of the reason she was because Ozai basically said "Well, I'm off to rule the world, you stay here since I don't need you anymore... and by the way you can have my title now that it's useless to me. See ya!."

>>48902
Yeah, next we should do Mumm-Ra and Skeletor.

>>48905

Yeah, but unlike Mumm-Ra and Skeletor, Ozai's hot.

>>48908
Where's that .gif of Ozai stripping when you need it?

>>48908
Skeletor was pretty ripped, he might not have been bad looking when he had a face.

Smae with MummRa and skin.

>>48878
"Ozai, wake up you're about to miss the best bit!"

"whats that?"

"the end"

DOHOHOHO

I'm with you. Life needs moar Ursa.

>>48904
Yup. I agree. I think that's one of the most interesting and unexplored parts about Ozai is how he managed to get both kids to worship him through various means.

Azula's fucked up but there's a shred of humanity within her. She's spoiled and cruel but she *loves*. Ozai knew it and 'favored' her. Ironically, no one liked Azula except perhaps her mother.

Zuko craved love too, and somehow Ozai manipulated Zuko the near opposite way he did Azula. Yet, more people loved Zuko (Mai, Ursa, Iroh) and they didn't matter as much.

Ozai has a keen understanding of human emotion and manipulation and could easily use it in the conquest of the world. But it would take longer than burning up the whole world. It's almost a shame, though Ozai's style does seem to be 'quick the better'.

I think this is why 'Firecest' creeps me out. Of all the incestuous/wincest talk, Firecest creeps me out the most.

While the rest of the 'wincest' stuff is laughable and can be enjoyable because of how OOC it's portrayed... Firecest would be perfectly IC for Azula or Ozai.

>>48939
>Ironically, no one liked Azula except perhaps her mother.
While I don't think Ursa actively disliked Azula, I'm also sure that she absolutely didn't "get" her.

In light of the direction our discussion has taken us, here's a question: would Ozai have benefitted from Avatar being made for an older audience? Might his character have been better conveyed in a show that was allowed to be more mature, and would allow him the opportunity to more violently demonstrate his capacity for cruelty?

>>49038
That would be more a show of his brutality for EXTREME's sake then character development. That wouldn't really open the door for Ozai to become much else.

>>49041
Okay, so how could it be made clearer that Ozai is more than a mustache-twirling villain, assuming he's meant to be more?

>>49042
By showing him contending with his own momentum's tole on the people or at least trying to run his own country. By the time the show starts Ozai's had a good long stay of power and steady military success to not be challenged but it would be interesting to see how it was right when he ascended with his brother's failure still fresh in everyone's mind. It's easy to rule people in war time when they're drunk off victory.

>>49049

In other words, Ozai was the perfect character do develop in flashbacks, maybe even link both his and Iroh's past and presents together.

>>49056
And yet they didn't.

>>49061

More like they planned to, but Nickelodeon screwed them.

Besides, I don't mind mustache-twirling Ozai. I don't see what's so wrong with him and why does he gets so much shit.

>>49064

He doesn't have a mustache.

;_;

>>49072

Didn't Señor del Fuego had one?

>>48896
>>48904
Heh. I can see it. Excuse me if I put on my over-analytical-geek hat for a short while.
Ozai pushes and pushes Zuko because he sees himself in him. So really, Zuko has the attention of both mother and father, leaving Azula out in the cold.
Azula's desire for perfection and power could have stemmed from constantly battling for her parent’s appreciation. Her narcissism could be from her own pride in succeeding at being perfect; or that, if her parents didn't love her she could always love herself. Of course she harbours a growing resentment towards Zuko and her mother (while she became her father’s favourite, her mother always shunned her).

Then comes Zuko's agni-kai and subsequent banishment. This can be interpreted as Ozai pushing Zuko so hard, expecting him to become stronger but instead crumpling (as he sees it anyway). This pains and enrages Ozai as this is like seeing weakness within himself. He never wants to think of this again and exiles Zuko so he is forever out of his sight.
Azula is jubilant over this. You can see her smirk during the agni-kai. She's seeing justice dealt out towards the enemy, and no longer has the risk of sharing her father’s affection. So life is good. Even when Zuko redeems himself and comes back, she's already settled her issues and comfortable enough with herself for it to not really bother her anymore. In fact, the fact that she instigated Zuko's return can be interpreted as her proving this to herself.

Of course, this all falls apart in the finale. Azula's friends betray her (for Zuko nonetheless). It shakes her, but she's still sure of who she is and her place in the world (or so she tells herself). She would, however, feel more comfortable to assure this by trying to off Zuko.
Slowly, the strings that piece her mind together begin to untangle.
Ozai's love for himself and passion to see the world following in his dream begins to visibly outshine his love for Azula. Azula convinces herself otherwise, racing to catch her father before he takes off to burn the world, so she can prove to herself that everything is still alright. Ozai basically says, “What are you doing here?” And she gets stabbed with a sickening nostalgia in the pit of her stomach. She lashes out accordingly, “Don’t treat me like Zuko!”

The loosening strings in her mind begin to slip furthur. She grabs them taut with the thoughts of being the new Firelord though; being someone important; even though she’s slowly, finally accepting the idea that daddy doesn’t love her.
When she’s sitting on the thrown, she should be looking forward to her coronation. She’s not however. She feels unable to appreciate anything around her, like her mind has run free to wallow in a pit of painful, nauseating nostalgia- and she can no longer influence it. She tries to exert her dominance, exiling the ‘problems’ to try and to fix her mind but nothing works. Still, she holds tightly onto the last strings.

When the last string gently breaks she plummets into a seemingly endless abyss- but I can’t pin when this happens. Perhaps it quietly snaps amidst noise of her agni-kai with Zuko, and she doesn’t notice how far she’s fallen down until after she’s defeated and chained up. Maybe she simply broke when she realised she was defeated, as most people assume. Either way, by the end of the series, she’s long gone. Her mind is in pieces and nothing is salvageable.
After Ozai loses against the Avatar, he stubbornly hangs on to his pride. Even when he’s chained up and powerless; staring the part of himself that he rejected who is wearing his crown and his robe; with dead eyes through the bars of his cell; his mind reminds sharp and he remains sure of himself. And I wonder if deep inside, in a part of himself he himself loaths, he isn’t just a little bit proud of the success his son became.

Apologies for the writefaggotry. I got carried away.

Hang the made-for-kids rating. I say Ozai should have been beaten until he was bloody and ragged in the finale. He deserved to be utterly punished physically by Aang.

>>49084
it wasn't hard for Aang to kill other characters either you know.

>>49085
Stop with this bullshit.

>>49084

Seeing physical violence as the only path to justice is pandering to your lowest instincts.

What happened to Ozai was respectful to him as an individual. He lost every sense of the word "power," the one and only thing he seems to actually care about.

PS: Freud says desires of violent retribution are indicative to homosexual rape fantasies.

>>49084
>>49085

Hi, OP here.

This thread is NOT for bitching about the ending. Knock it off.

>>49094
What if I liked how Avatar ended and still demand homosexual rape fanfiction?

>>49078
Mr. Freud Dude, I loved your analysis and give you credit for not slipping into the obvious Freud Joke.

>>49064

I like the character as he is. Beard twirling is fine by me. Part of me is a little sad there isn't more to him but you know what? Fanfic authors should love the open canvas that they have. I'd love to have canon resolution of course, but a personal canon is fine too. I've loved all the concepts that's been presented so far.

Of course, one has to wonder about Ursa. Some people are romantic about her, I'm not. I don't think she'd ever be evil, but cunning like Azula except with, you know, morals. Being married to Ozai for at least 11 years means she had to be smart not to trigger anger from him and had disillusioned by his charisma. (Of course, having your son be threatened with death and have your husband willingly want go through with it kinda kills the mood).

>>49094
>Freud says desires of violent retribution are indicative to homosexual rape fantasies.
Well, most of the people here are from 4chan...

>>49096
*looks at her name*

...

*looks at her files of uh... same-sex surprise-sex.*

... ... does this mean I'm not wanted here?

>>49101
Without 4chan there is no plus4chan. Evicting /co/mrades would be the equivalent of when the board of Oscorp voted out Norman Osborne in the Spider-Man movie, and the consequences would be just as disastrous.

>>49094
>PS: Freud says desires of violent retribution are indicative to homosexual rape fantasies.
Freud made a lot of shit up, too.

>>49120

As much as I would love to be Williem Dafoe... I probably won't spam this with surprise sex. I'm pretty sure most of the people on here have read it, anyway.

>thread

clearly this thread is just an excuse to talk about Ozai.and who can blame you, after all no one can resist Ozai.

>>49094
Seconded. In Ozai's mind, what Aang did to him was worse than death.

Rotting in his prison cell, weakened and humiliated, he'd probably like nothing more than someone to walk in, slit his throat, and put him out of his misery, because he can't imagine existing without power at his fingertips.

>>49042
every dictator is a mustache-twirling villain.

>>49287
Yes, but as I said before, Ozai is sexy so we want him to be deeper.

Or go deeper, depends on how you drift.

>>49252
I don't blame him at all. I honestly think it was crueler of Aang to spare him than it would have been to kill him. Going /inside Ozai/ and taking away his bending, a part of his soul, just so he can sleep easier at night? Aang is a dick.

>>49294

Well, we could have had the lovely ending where the Villain offs himself and have even MORE baawing.

with Ozai alive there is a chance a nationalist party that sees the actions of zuko as treason try to free him and azula. then attempt a coup.

>>49302
A Fire Lord that can't firebend? The nationalists wouldn't turn to Ozai for that very reason.

They'd most likely try to break Azula out of the looney bin. How successful that would be depends on whether you think she's permanently fucked up or not.

>>49305
Pretty much like in Water Tribe Zhao.

>>49302

Zuko committed no treason. Aang defeated Ozai. What Zuko did to Azula was just putting her in her place. Zuko teaching Aang Firebending wasn't treason either. He did that because he didn't feel that letting his father continue the war was in the best interests of his nation.

>>49313
In this case, 'nationalist' would be 'pro-war, anti-Zuko,' and thus wouldn't be thinking their actions through quite that thoroughly.

I certainly think Zuko's going to meet with some resistance to his reforms within the nobility. Of course, they won't be able to do anything about it. Absolute monarchy is nice like that.

>>49313
>Zuko committed no treason.

he helped his fat uncle back at the end of book one, he kept vital information about how the avatar is Alive from the fire lord and went against his direct orders, he is a traitor.

>>49317

>helped his fat uncle at the end of book one

Actually, it was Iroh who helped Zuko in the entirety of the series. Even if that wasn't the case, Iroh didn't do anything at the end of book one that could be considered treason. In fact, Iroh gave legitimate advice to Admiral Zhao. I'm not sure what you mean.

>kept vital information about how the avatar is alive

I don't think Zuko was actually sure or not of Aang's survival. When indirectly confronted about it by Azula, the only thing that came to his mind was the spirit oasis water. Zuko had no idea how any of that healing worked, so how could he even connect the dots on that issue? You could make the argument that he knew instinctively, which is why he hired Combustion Man...but I'd just make the argument that Zuko's track record for instinctive decisions isn't the best and that, if anything, his turning to Combustion Man was an act of paranoia brought on by his sister messing with his head.

I'm reminded of a really twisted idea I had about Ursa and Ozai.

That, at one point, just after Zuko is exiled, Ursa actually returns to take Azula, knowing that Ozai is only going to manipulate and use her- and possibly even worse.

She manages to get relatively far into the Palace complex before being surrounded by guards. There's no point in her struggling, she was never much of a firebender or fighter, and in any case, Ozai himself soon appears.

Ozai has a short conversation with her, although it's fairly one-sided, as she's just begging to see her daughter one more time. Ozai laughs and says that perhaps something can be arranged after all. He then orders the guards to restrain her, gag her and put her mask back on. She is then taken to a cell where she waits for about an hour.

Then Ozai comes in, with an Azula that has just been woken up and is probably mildly annoyed that her sleep has been interrupted. Ozai then tells Azula that a vile assassin had been caught in the palace, intending to murder him. Azula asks if she is to be executed in the morning.

Ozai replies that under normal circumstances, this would be the case, but this time, he wishes his daughter to be the hand of justice. Ursa does her best to cry out, but she's muffled and Azula has no idea who she is. Ozai then suggests that Azula use her lightning, as previously, she's never been able to truly see its power. Azula nods, but now that it's down to killing a real person and not just the abstract concept of killing, she finds herself a bit unsurer than she would've hoped she'd be.

She snaps at the 'assassin', telling her that it is a more merciful death than a would-be regicide deserves. Azula does not let her father down, and the lightning blast kills Ursa instantly. Almost immediately, Azula throws up.

Ozai, almost tenderly, strokes her shoulders and hair, telling her that it's all right, that the stench of burning flesh is difficult to get used to- and that the first is always the most difficult. Regaining her composure somewhat, Azula agrees- the stench is overpowering. Ozai lets her go back to bed, but remains in the cell a bit longer.

Showing no signs of being affected by the smell himself he walks up to Ursa. He takes a little bit of her hair in his hand and strokes it- it was her hair that he'd always loved. It occurs to him that Azula's hair is just like her mothers. He leans over to Ursa's ear and whispers.

"Now she's mine. Farewell, my sweet blackbird."

>>49371

Well, the EiP's play was painting him as a traitor. So my guess is that most people in the FN view him as such.

However, how harsh the next months/years of Zuko's reign are going to be deppend on a good number of factors.

The FN is quite wealthy as a result of the war, and that's not going to disappear overnight.

And the end of the war will piss off several generals and high class citizens, but on the other hand will probably be a relief for a LOT of mid-low class citizens.

The colonies on the EK will certainly be a problem, though.

Either way, regardless of how many enemies he has on his back, his wife(?) will probably influence some people on his side.

The Lotus will support him as well.

The other nations will probably back him up.

And with his victory over Ozai, very few people will have the backbone to stand against the Avatar, who fully supports the new Zuko's reign.

>>49374

D:

>>49374

D:

(though, the concept is promising for a fic)

>>49379

I hope to write it up as a fic sometime soon.

>>49374
DO NOT WANT. ):

>There's no point in her struggling, she was never much of a firebender or fighter

Ursa: Zuko, that's what moms are like. When you mess with their babies [CHOMP] they're gonna bite you back.

Ursa is a fighter where her children are concerned, and I can't see her giving up that easily. I also was hoping she was a firebender, but I'm probably in the minority here.

>>49417

That's a valid point, although the end result wouldn't have changed. I seriously doubt she's much of a firebender, if at all.

>>49417
That reminds me: Ursa's little speech there may be more significant than you'd think.

Think about it. What's a common term that refers to a dangerously protective mother? Mama Bear.

>>49459
Not to mention her name means "bear"

>>49459
Whoa, wait. You just caught that?

>>49466

Just knowing the constellation would have told you that, though.

>>49459

Okay, if/when this becomes fic, more struggle!

I was really thinking more about Ozai than Ursa when I wrote it, and it probably shows. Thanks for the tips.

>>49466
I'm sure there's a way to link that with Earth King/Ursa.

>>49502
There was a thread like that on ASN once, with one person joking that for all we know, Ursa could have turned into a bear and then someone else claimed she was Bosco in disguise.

>>49509

>>49514
>>49509
This gives me an image of Ozai crying one crocodile tear as he lets Ursa go out into the wild in bear form.

But if Ursa is a literal bear, we can't ship her with the Earth King anymore, since everyone says he should be played by Stephen Colbert.

>>49582
But what if ColBear is your OTP?

>>49582
The presence of Bosco invalidates that, doesn't it?

>>49621
And you thought Zutara took the whole hate/love seriously.

>>49624
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?

>>49624
THIS IS PROOF PEOPLE!

>>49629
Unaltered and Unedited, before you compare this to Zutara how many other ships have accomplished this small milestone?

>>49632
I have no idea what you mean.

>>49650
I think I was just false promoting this but don't hold me to that statement. Sleep deprivation and +/a/ are a strange brew.

Dear Freudguy:

I made this for you.

http://zip.4chan.org/co/res/8135565.html

Love,
Ninja

>>49831

Oh Ninja, you lovable scamp.

>>49830

Sketch based on this post.

>>49863

ya got me, I lol'd

>>49881
I have done my job then.

We need more badass characters who aren't benders, as right now that list consists of Water Tribe guys and Jet. So I vote no. :)

Lil Lu Ten unrelated.

>>68029
Ty Lee, Mai, and Suki are conspicuously absent from your list of badass nonbenders.

Also, don't forget that Ursa is Avatar Roku's granddaughter. I never really thought of her as a firebender, but you could certainly argue that if it's in anyone's blood, it's in hers.

;_;

http://luco-millian.livejournal.com/309130.html

>>74752
This made me d'aww. If I was ever going to feel sympathy for Ozai, this piece of fanart would do the trick. At first I thought they were in prison together, but reading the filename, I headed on over to DA and clicked the link to the fanfic. I don't recommend anyone else do this, though. It's short, but it's terribly OOC and somewhat confusing.

Here's a question for all of you: Would the fact that Ursa is Avatar Roku's great granddaughter have any impact on her marriage to Ozai? Would it cause a stir, since she's the relative of the Fire Nation's enemy, or would it be seen as a way to win over the descendants of the Avatar?