>>48588
I like to think of them of more Anakin/Obi-Wan.

>>48589

It doesn't seem like Iroh gave his brother that much mind, though.

Ozai probably had a lot of respect for Iroh before he lost his son. He probably prefers to remember Iroh as he was, not as who he became.

I took it as Ozai simply "forgetting" about Iroh when he stepped down for appearance and mentality as the de facto Pater Familias. The family can't look weak with failure and second guessing their father's ideal of sharing the glory of the Fire Nation with everyone. Iroh pretty much removed himself from the Fire Nation when he left to soul search and journey with Zuko thus Ozai didn't have to do anything. He was out of sight and out of mind.

It'd be interesting to see what kind of relationship they had when they were younger but by the time of the show they were so different in thinking and ideology that they were like the Sun and the Moon. Total strangers.

It's also worth remembering that Iroh is twenty years older than Ozai. They might not have known each other well at all, since they didn't grow up together.

I wanted Zuko and Sokka to have a spar swordfight after Sokka met his master.

>>48651
That could've been interesting. Seeing Sokka actually get better with his sword would be kind of cool, as would Zuko actually using his swords again.

When and how did Iroh come across the White Lotus Society?

>>48659
Wait...USE the swords...But...But...That could result in someone getting...*gulp* hurt.

>>48674
Only if one of the combatants is bare-handed. Otherwise the fight ends when one person is disarmed.

>>48671
I'm betting that happened after his "journey to the Spirit World"

>>48682
Then it ends in bromance.

>>48690
One of them has a sword-hilt built to catch swords. The fight ends when one of them catches the other's sword, then gives a half-smile/smirk to the other.

Only question remaining is which is which.

How Ursa and Ozai met, how Ozai went on with his life dispite who his father in law was.

>>48789

same person along with the sword fight question.

another thing that's bothered me is, how powerful did zuko really become after learning the true secret to firebending. yeah afterwards his fights with azula were on par for once but was it because he became that much stronger or because she was declining mentally.

>>48651
what i wanted to see was them sparing after The Western Air Temple and katar walks in on them when zuko has the upper hand.

then she goes all I KNEW YOU'D BETRAY US END YOUR DESTINY PMS FUUUUUUUUUUCK on him

>>48789

Arranged marriage, according to Bryke. But you have to wonder about their relationship, all the same. At one point, they really did seem to love each other.

>>48813
I think in that same interview, they said Ozai and Ursa probably had an okay relationship to start with, and that he became a super dickhead later on.

>>48813
Well they did have TWO kids, and the firstborn was a son. There would have been no reason for them to keep making babies if they didn't have some feelings for each other. I'm curious as to just what made Ozai change.

>>49289
Maybe Ursa's not a model of maternal purity and decent humanity?

I know they wouldn't do that, because she has to be the paragon of virtue in the family for being the one who cared about Zuko. But perhaps at least she's not as saintly as Zuko remembers her. And maybe Ozai's just that much not of a dick that they meet somewhere in the middle.

>>49292

Ozra fans (yeah, they exist) like to contend that he REALLY started to slip down the slope of sociopath after Ursa killed Azulon and left the family.

>>49299
Ozai may have still loved Ursa at the time, but the man was far from kindhearted and merciful thinking it was a good idea to off his son. So I doubt Ursa was holding him back much if at all.

Anyone else wonder exactly when and WHY Ozai started hating Zuko? From the flashbacks, we see that he treated his son well enough. Maybe he despised the "soft side" he saw Zuko developing under Ursa's care?

One has to wonder, was Azula's birth the result of a somewhat happy relationship? Or was she concieved as a replacement for Zuko, only it backfired when she was female?

At some point, his family WAS happy, at least acording to Zuko.

We know that while Iroh was a successful General, Ozai's rivalry with him was already old.

We also know that Ursa was a big precense in Zuko's childhood (something that Ozai might have seen as weakness). And that Iroh was one as well (which might have fueled Ozai's contempt with his son).

And then Azula, second child and female, started to show superior skills at firebending than his first born...

We have some info on Ozai to make a partial portrait of him, but there's still details missing.

Frustrating and fascinating at the same time.

>>49365
I doubt even Ozai would be ridiculous enough to say, "I am displeased with the progress of my two-year-old son. I need a new heir."

What would be hilarious is if Azula were the result of an unplanned pregnancy.

>>49366

For all we know, Zuko might have been sickly as a child.

>>49367

Interesting, but you're definitely reaching on that one.

I think Azula was just the product of a married couple getting it on. I can't really think of any reasons to see it as anything more than that.

>>49372

I think so as well, just coming up with a different theory for the sake of arguing.

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Ursa and Ozai NEVER loved each other. That doesn't mean they hated each other, but if it was an arranged or political marriage, there's no guarantee that they ever got past a strained "friendship". Zuko was created simply out of their duty to produce an heir. Maybe Azula was conceived because Ozai just wanted to give Ursa another baby to keep her happy and out of his way? It was just a stroke of luck that she ended up being useful.

>>49399
Though, at the time, Iroh and not Ozai was in line to be Fire Lord.

All this is making me wonder again about Zuko's line in SotN.

Zuko: My father says she (Azula) was born lucky. He says I was lucky to be born.

>>49416

I've pondered the possibility of Zuko being a sickly child. I've also wondered about the fertility of the Fire Nation Royal men ... I know there's TV logic at work, but Iroh having only one child and then Ozai having only two? In a predmodern setting like Avatar is, that's awfully small.

>>49416>>49419

Shots, I just throwed that thing about him being sickly as a child just so that the thing I writed made more sense. I never even thought about that line... I still think its unlikely, but who knows...

And about families and children, most families shown are small. One or two children, the exception being TyLee with six sisters.

So its not likely a problem of fertility.

I always imagined Aang having quite a few kids.

>>49447
Well, that's just because Katara has prime birthin' hips and Aang has the stamina of the Energizer Bunny.

>>49419
You're forgetting the history of bloody usurpation the royal family has or at least the likely possibility of sibling spun civil war. The child mortality rate might be tweaked in this world but the reality of power struggles was proved with Ozai, the bigger the monarchial family the greater chance for civil unrest.

Still, there's absolutely no reason for Azula to exist if Ursa and Ozai hated each other. Ozai could have kept a whole harem of nubile young sex slaves, so there's no reason for him to keep banging a woman he doesn't care for.

>>49491
You're acting like Ozai had some sort of knowledge that his first born would live long enough to take the throne. The nation has been at war and his own brother's ONLY child was killed while fighting. I bet he wanted to make sure there were backups. Had events with Ursa not transpired as they did there may well have been more princes and/or princesses.

>>49365

>Or was she concieved as a replacement for Zuko, only it backfired when she was female?

It was never implied, let alone stated, that Azula's gender was detrimental to her in any way. Only her status as second-born seemed to hold any significance. Ozai is many things, but a misogynist he isn't. The Fire Nation appears to be a "progressive" society, in that females are granted the same privileges and opportunities as males, so I really have no idea where this assumption comes from.

>>49495

Refer to >>49373

Its wild speculation for the sake of arguing.

Since we don't know a lot about the FN Royal Family, there's a lot of room for speculation.

>>48600
This is a good point.
Considering the relationship the Firelord usually keeps, Iroh may have been more like a father to Ozai then a brother.
Maybe that's why Iroh stuck so strongly to Zuko. A lot of people have speculated that Ozai was a lot like Zuko when he was younger, perhaps Iroh is determined to be Zuko's surrogate father to make up for his failure as Ozai's surrogate father?

>>49500

>Since we don't know a lot about the FN Royal Family, there's a lot of room for speculation.

True -- however, most speculation arises from <i>some</i> kind of subtext. In this case, there really isn't any. Ozai never once hinted that Azula's gender was undesirable or a flaw. Why, then, should we believe it somehow was?

>>49525

Well, scratch that Azula turned out to be female part, if it pisses you so much.

>>49552

Also, he could've, before he realized her potential at firebending and her usefulness as a tool to keep his plans running.

>>49552
>>49554

In a series that's so upfront about addressing sexism, don't you think any negative feelings toward Azula's gender would've come up at some point if they ever existed? I don't get why fandom insists on sons being more important than daughters in the Fire Nation, when we have no canonical proof of that.

Actually, the opposite is more likely closer to the truth.

Zhao: We are the sons and DAUGHTERS of Fire!

Fire Nation ≠ Water Tribe, in pretty much everything.

Besides, Azula doesn't act like a girl. If she acted like Ty Lee, I could see why Ozai would be disappointed.

>>49564
Probably because, despite his failbending, Ozai still shows some preference for Zuko. While it's clear he favors Azula for her abilities he is still quick to not only accept Zuko back into the fold but also place him up front the moment he's given reason to. Even if that wasn't the case all the leaders we ever see for the Fire Nation(Sozin's father, Sozin, Azulon, Ozai, and Zuko) are male so a patriarchy is assumed. Then again, unmentioned siblings aside, it looks like Azula was the first female child born to the Fire Lord/Lady since pre-Sozin and Ozai could just be mildly favoring his eldest.

>>49565

It still doesn't irrefutably prove that his favoritism had to do with gender. It could have been due to birth-order, whereas Zuko would have the advantage no matter what Azula did, or...

>A lot of people have speculated that Ozai was a lot like Zuko when he was younger

...this? Maybe Zuko "fulfilled" -- but not really -- a dream unrealized by Ozai in his own youth, capturing and/or slaying the Avatar, and reinstating him as heir apparent was a reflection of that.

>>49564>>49568

It is a theory, speculation, wild guess.

Ok, Azula being female was not a factor.

>>49568
Yeah, I mentioned that age order is a possible(and probably more likely) reason and I was one of those people mentioning Ozai might have been like Zuko when younger in the royal family thread. I was just giving reasons people would see it the other way.

Ok, seriously, my argument had some flaws.

Can we please move on to something else?

>>49571

Sure. I didn't want to come across as argumentative; just wanted to state a point. I'm all for moving on.

Or maybe Ozai favoured Zuko, because Azula was already firmly in his grip, so there'd be no point in trying to persuade her, yet Zuko was flinging between acceptance and failure, so he tried to do what he could to swing it in his favour.

>>49575

That's a good one, too.

No one replied ;_;

>>52177

People replied, some thought it was cool, others thought you were overthinking it.

>>52177
I really, really like the interpretation of Ozai as seeking self-validation. It goes a long way towards explaining a character that remained fairly opaque for me.

>>52177
it all makes sense now!

when Aang spiritbent Ozai it was Ozai who took the initiative almost overcoming Aang.

meanwhile the spirit bending forced Ozai to look into himself all the way down, where he discovered the emptiness, the gaping hole he tried to fill with power, his inner child still looking for a purpose in life.

he then realized all his wrong doings, how he thrust his own pain on his son, how he betrayed his wife, his parents, his brother. now his Anger change, he was no longer Angry at the world but at himself.

just like Zuko in the beginning of the fire bending masters he lost his drive to bend.

>>52214
The spiritbending scene becomes absolutely hilarious if you picture it as a God of War cutscene, and imagine Ozai cursing in the background as he misses the button presses.

>>52453
or Aang getting them right.

>>52453>>52455

AWESOME

Something I always wondered about was Avatar Yangchen.
Air Nomads are supposed to be very peaceful monks and yet she had no problem with Aang killing Ozai. Also, they never went into detail with what she did, but it was enough to stop all war for the next generation even after she died. Sounds like a pretty intimidating airbender to me.

>>52481
Here's my take on that:
Yang Chen was much older and more experienced than Aang. She understood that sometimes you have to sacrifice part of yourself to get things done, whereas Aang is still far too young to be able to accept having to compromise his morals that way. Aang is much more mature than most kids his age, and he's had to go through a lot, but at heart he's still just a kid who wants everything to be happy and carefree.

>>52492
You think it's childish to refuse to jump to sacrifice and give up personal standards? Aang was raised as a monk and Chen lived her life as a warrior. She was only going to parrot her personal belief just like Aang will when he's in that past life line.

>>52493
It's nice that everything worked out for Aang, but what if it hadn't? What if there had been no such thing as spiritbending, and he'd had to make the choice between killing Ozai and letting him live? If he chooses the latter, he's risking the lives of a lot of people to satisfy his moral philosophy. Doesn't seem right to me.

By the way, why didn't we see him agonize about this on the Day of Black Sun? As far as he knew, he was faced with the same situation. The only thing that seemed to bother him then was that he didn't feel he was ready.

>>52494

Blame that on the writers knowing that that battle was lost since the start. Therefore, not needing to go into detail about the ramifications on killing just yet.

As for Aang not having energy bending, it would've played almost exacly, except that once Ozai decided to keep fighting, Aang would've killed him. Or maybe just chop his hands off.

Eitherway, grimdark fags would've cheered all over the world.

>>52494
I had always imagined that Aang's actions on the Day of Black Sun wouldn't require deadly force (at least, none of the invaders were considering it at the time). With the Fire Lord powerless, Aang could find and restrain Ozai, and by holding him hostage could force a surrender of the Fire Nation government.

Ozai's supposed to be one of the best Firebenders, so the chances of Aang being able to nonlethally subdue him go down (at least in his mind). And with the comet, Aang has to confront the serious possibility that he can't defeat Ozai without killing him.

Ozai: Since you're a full-blown traitor now and you want me gone, why wait? I'm powerless. You've got your swords. Why don't you just do it now?

Zuko: Because I know my own destiny. Taking you down is the Avatar's destiny. Goodbye.

I find it funny that so many people complain about Aang not killing Ozai, yet they totally disregard the fact that Zuko had the perfect chance to do it as well. Why not get mad at him? If Zuko couldn't or wouldn't take down the Fatherlord Firelord, why shouldn't he be blamed as well? Zuko mentioned destiny, so who's to say the Lion Turtle's appearance wasn't destiny too?

>>52506

Because Aang is a sissy, overpowered, immature Marty Stu and bla bla bla bla

>>52506
because Zuko's explanation made at least some sense. Aang killed lots of people before that episode.

>>52523

Uhh...nah.

Not unless you count La's actions as Aang's.

>>52527
who's La?

>>52529
Ocean spirit.

>>52530
I was referring to the invasion, killed lots of people.

>>52537
Aang wasn't even there for most of the fighting. He helped out with defense at the beginning of the invasion, and then he ran off to find Ozai. And Aang wouldn't feel guilty about any Fire Nation soldiers the other invaders killed, because even though he doesn't like it he understands that death is a part of battle. It's the same reason he doesn't get upset with the others for eating meat. He won't do it personally, but he accepts that others do.

>>52537

There weren't that much bodies around during the invasion. And Aang certainly didn't kill anyone himself. He cannot be held responsible for the actions of others during a fucking war.

The only time Aang could be argued to have killed is that infamous buzzard-wasp in the desert.

First, its was a bug. Totally different from killing a person.

And even that's debated, because some people say the bug was cut in half, others say it wasn't.

Second, Aang was in the middle of a breakdown, and therefore not himself.

>>52570
>>52568
did you people even watch the episode?
Aang destroyed a war balloon with people still in it, as I recall they didn't have any parachutes then either, also lots of people died in the northern air temple.

>>52610
No, I didn't kill them. the fall did.

>>52616
Not so much the *fall*, I think...

>>52610
MINDLESS ACTION SCENE.

Eves if it's not realistic, the airships were landing slowly.

Also this pic. The guy didn't die even if the fall killed that general before.

>>52639
you ever fall without hitting the ground?

>>52640
when falling you don't start fast, the air balloon slowed it slightly until squiding began and the gravity kicked in.

>>52669

None of the airships that are downed actually explode, they just lose altitude and idle on the ground. Towards the end of the battle, we see the crew on all the airships standing on top.

>>52672
when did that happen during the invasion?

>>52643
I hear NASA does it all the time, but eh

>>48790
I always figured it was a combo. He was shooting much better flames (consider what he did attacking Aang in 317), and definitely had a better defense, and she was weakening at the same time, in strategy if not power.

>>54365

same person acctually, I saw this and knew it was a reply to my question. XD

Anyways I wanted to consider the odds of a what if battle, would it end in a drawor would Azula still whoop the crap out of him dispite the fact he learned "the secret".

>>54375

The last bit of season three bothered me a bit in that regard. It seems that through-out the show they've made the fighting more about skill and technique rather than just about power, but Zuko's whole boost in the end came from learning true firebending which just increased his fire power, but not his technique (unless you count the dragon dance). Though, I guess maybe he increased his skill just by watching the dragons' movements?

>>54433
What are you talking about? After learning the way of the Dancing Dragon, there's a huge shift in his fighting style that hinges on his use of defensive techniques and circular motions. It made him much more of an even match against Azula during their battles on the gondola and airship.

>>54443

Good point, but they still seemed to emphasize the power of it/the fire itself more, and the final battle with Sozin's Comet didn't help that. Of course, I'm notorious for missing completely obvious crap, so. . .

>>54449
I disagree. Consider the first fight between Azula and Zuko in season 2. She didn't even have to fire bend, she just out classed him as he pathetically couldn't even touch her.

Putting aside their final battle, where all concede she was far from her top form, in the battles before that, she now actually had to work to counter his moves. The dynamic had changed considerably.

>>54443
>After learning the way of the Dancing Dragon, there's a huge shift in his fighting style that hinges on his use of defensive techniques and circular motions.

This. Notice how whenever he fights Azula after that, he parries almost all of her attacks

>>54460

pretty much, he moves from "GRRR I BURN YOU" to much more relaxed movement.

which is why I'd love to see an alternative universe duke out between the siblings.

consequentally, what would happen if Azula was taught the dancing dragon. @_@

>>54531
Well she's already hax under normal circumstances...

It's like asking what would have happened if Azula had been sane during Sozin's Comet. The answer is RAPE.

>>54553

I say draw. she had all of her cappabilities aside from self control and zuko didn't look like he was struggling.

>>54531
She scoffs at the forms as being "weak" and "outdated" and never uses them. No difference.

>>49329
>>WHY Ozai started hating Zuko?

I think Ozai's relationship towards his children is a result of how he sees his own traits reflected on them.
That might give us a clue on Azulon's relationship with Ozai and Iroh.

>>54585

Self-control is massively important in a fight. With her usual precision, clear head, tactical genius? Azula wins by a mile, Dancing Dragons or no.

>>54617

"didn't look like he was struggling"

>>54617
I don't think Azula would be able to keep her composure if Zuko consistently no-sold her attacks over the course of an extended fight. She'd lose the moment she felt like she wasn't in control.

Dancing dragons is not some sort of firebending powerup, it doesn't make the firebending stronger. stop acting like it does.

seriously people where do you come up with this stuff.

>>54700

Eh. Azula was getting her ass handed to her in Crossroads of Destiny (until Zuko showed up, anyway) and she didn't lose her composure there. She was getting worried, certainly, but not flipping her shit.

>>54703

It's the oldest, purest and original form of human Firebending. That makes it pretty badass in my book.