Being Thief of Doom is suffering, probably.

What I think is interesting about both Classes and Aspects is in how many ways that can be interpreted (Light being Luck, Fortune, Sight, Illumination and so on), and in especially strange ways if they're part of a punny Class/Aspect combination. The Page of Void was literally a blank page, the Page of Breath blows around in the wind. The Seer of Mind can see mind constructs and the Seer of Light could effortlessly interpret Serenity's Morse code. The Maid of Time has myriads of copies from different timelines, the Maid of Life literally can't die. And since none of the other Breath players have ever exhibited it, I think The Windy Thing is more or less unique to the Heir/Air of Breath, while Breath normally is more about direction or flow.

My point is that there are so many ways of interpreting Aspects to begin with, and once you start combining them with Classes you can get some unexpected results. I don't think a Seer of Void would necessarily be horrible. If they can see all that is not, they would also know of all that could be. And that's a hell of a lot. Meanwhile, Doom seems to be about Fate (as in the End) or Death, and it's been noted that it can become very similar to Life in certain combinations. So a Thief of Life would steal Life, thus bringing about Doom/Death, while a Thief of Doom would steal Doom/Death, giving Life. Not pleasant, but useful.

That said, Bards are always horrible.

Sylph of Doom

good luck healing niggas with Doom

bard of space
just think of all the things that could go wrong

A Bard of Light might be destructive, but the power to invite destructive fortunes on others seems fairly straightforward. On the other hand, a Bard of Time seems like it might wait around for its target to get old or bored. And a Bard of Void might be fairly normal, due to the relative insignificance of void players canceling out the prominence of bards, though it could just end up making them even more mysterious and plot-important, just in a less visible manner.

A Prince of Mind could end up driving everyone crazy, due to destroying minds as a power.

A Maid of Wraith would be constantly overwhelmed with emotion, while a Maid of Void would be "made of nothing", which I guess maybe could allow her to cheaply alchemise copies of herself, so that might be neat.

Mages and seers of time seem somewhat redundant, since they'd have at least some future prediction anyway.

A Thief of Doom seems like it would probably steal fate/destiny, which sounds fairly powerful.

>>70041
you are completely missing the point of this thread

also what the hell is a maid of wraith

>>70052
I assume he meant "Wrath," which isn't an aspect, but is more or less synonymous with "Rage," which is.

>>70052
What? Everything I said was about how various combinations would either be dull to play as or dangerous to the team, other than my note on Thieves of Doom, which was more of a reply to >>70012.

>>70053
Yeah, I meant rage, but forgot the proper term for and also how to properly spell wrath. That's what I get for posting late at night.

People keep saying "Doom is death" but I have no idea where they're getting this. Isn't Time already death?

Incidentally, "Doom" can also just mean "Fate," or "Destiny." I've been flirting with the idea that the Doom aspect is more about fate than it is about death, though I wouldn't be surprised if the fate in question is often fairly morbid.

>>70086
Well, look at Sollux. He had the whole apocalyptic visions of death going on. His duality/bifurcation theme is all about the destruction and death of two universes, first as Red-Blue and then as Black-White. He killed Aradia, who became a ghost outside the dreambubbles (as opposed to, say, dream Jade). He had two dreamselves (extra lives), and both died. He sacrificed himself, but still exists as a half-ghost, the only known dead person able to freely leave the dreambubbles.

Death and mortality seem to be a part of Time, but mostly because Time players are largely responsible of the survival and success of their party and has to be willing to put themselves at risk in order to achieve that. So I suppose that while Doom is concerned about the deaths that occur in the alpha timeline and are "natural" or crucial for success, Time is more about doomed timelines and preventing the events that lead to failure. It also ties into the end of time and LE's reality destruction, the opposite of Space and its creation/birth/transformation thing.

>>70086
>>70164
Time has nothing to do with death! It's already time. Why would it need to be death.
Doom is the opposite of Life and has a skull. So Doom is death.

The various aspects probably overlap in a lot of ways, with time, doom, and life all likely having their own influence over death: Death is a matter of time, it is part of your destiny, and opposed by life. Breath probably relates to life, but I don't think has any direct connection to death. Heart has at least some connection to emotion since emotions relate to the soul, as does the mind, but they're most obviously Rage's domain. And the way things have the potential to emerge form the void seems to relate it to hope in a way.

>>70171
Why do you think it's the opposite of life, other than by supposedly being death? It doesn't even look that much like a skull, it's more like some weird helmet, mask, or a semicircular blade with two big holes in it.

Muse of void. There I said it.
But seriously, I think seer of rage would be bad. What could a seer do with rage? Also, I think something like a page or heir of blood would be useless, even a slyph would be weak too combined with blood. I dunno. Blood players haven't been expanded on much so I'm sure their powers will be fleshed out later.

>>70041
Prince of mind was gonna be my secret class/aspect combination when the game came out. I would wreck everyone's shit with my power to destroy minds.

>>70176
Dude it looks like a damn skull

>>70171
Because aspects aren't all that simple and convenient. Look at Space, which seems to be both Creation and Physics, and at least three of the known Space players dream of becoming something else (furry, vampire, troll). Two of these have come true so far, so I think it's fair to attribute it some Transformative aspects. Or think about Light, which has like five different meanings where Luck is just the simplest one. Time is time travel, sure, but apart from the deaths the Time player must face (including their own) it is also intrinsically linked to doomed timelines (death) and the Scratch (complete undoing of your lives and accomplishments). It's no coincidence that Caliborn is a Time player.

Like I said, Doom is alpha timeline deaths, Fate if you will, while Time is about deaths that should or could be prevented.

>>70176
I also don't get this Rage thing you've going? It seems to be connected to English, might have something to do with insanity and is probably the opposite of Hope, but so far it has nothing to do with emotion.

>>70185
It's called Rage. Rage is an emotion.

>>70189
Blood has little to do with blood, only for the trolls
Light isn't about light, not in the literal sense
Rage doesn't have to be about anger

>>70190
No, but it does seem to be about motivating force, like Equius's obsession with caste system enforcement that Gamzee took advantage of when strangling him.

>>70190
I thought official sources had said that Blood was based around Lineage. Which isn't a far-fetched interpretation of the word, even if it's not the first one you would think of when you hear, say, "Knight of Blood."

>>70197
pretty sure the only official source is hussie
also pretty sure he didnt say that

>>70190
Vriska blinded Terezi. Light is literally light.

>>70203
But that wasn't in any way connected to her Light powers. You'll probably tell me that it was her using "Light" offensively, but that's like saying Gamzee was using the great Rage powers of String to murder Equius.

>>70197
As far as I've heard, Blood has to do with uniting others to a common goal. I mean, look at how many allies Karkat made in his time. He managed to persuade Jack to help him, he arguably brought the trolls together to a degree that allowed them to power through the game. He made contact with the kids, thus starting the bonding between the two species. Plus his skills in leadership are actually quite impressive, despite his thoughts.

Then there's Kankri an the Sufferer; Kankri and his whole deal with sermons and whatnot. I don't even NEED to describe the Sufferer (who, while not a player, scratched related players have shown signs of their powers before, like the Condesce and Life).

>>70208
If Blood is Unity, maybe Breath is Individuality or something similar (because yes the two are opposites, there's not really any doubt at this point)? I mean, Tavros failed to achieve it, Rufioh gave all of his away and John has been said to go with the wind and follow others when he really should be more active.

>>70209
Oh yeah and the Summoner totally had it and Poppop made his own path in life. Would also fit with John's belief that fate is stupid and not real.

>>70209
>>70210
and by individuality i do mean independence
so yeah

I still don't see what a Void Class can do, it seems very much in the air as it were. Like a pick and choose class without any stable theme.

Equius and Darkleer were able to hide their motivations and actions from Scratch, an all knowing and all powerful puppet, but Rose managed to do the same with her connection to the HorrorTerrors. And Horuss? I think that he was a Jack-of-All trades, good at many things but never great.

>>70245
Way I see it, Void can be a lot of things. An empty fist (Equius, Mom, Roxy), an unclear mind (grimdark Rose, drunk Roxy), the obfuscation of information (all the blackouts, Equius' blood, Rose's broodfester tongues, Roxy's drunken speech) and the literal Void between the universes/space-time weirdness (Roxy's pumpkins, windows and dreambubble sleepwalks, Rose's horrorterror affinity, Horuss' insanity).

But it is not only emptiness or the lack of something. It can also be, well, everything else. Void is said to be incomprehensible, since it has no true definition. Aranea spoke of conjuring things from the Void, Rose's magic allowed her to do anything she wanted to from blasting holes and picking apart giant castles to setting things on fire or creating black rain, and Horuss, as the Page of Void, was a blank slate. His class and aspect gave him great potential within any area, limited only by his imagination. And now we've got Roxy, and with her affinity for the dreambubbles and the promise of amazing abilities upon reaching the God Tiers I don't think being the Rogue of Void literally means "one who steals nothing."

>>70246
THIS.

To simplify it a bit, it's helpful if you recognize that Void is the counterpart of Light, not Space. It's not so much "nothingness" as it is "darkness."

>>70247
Yes, that is exactly the message I would have wanted to convey if I got to rewrite that post. Thank you. Void is the opposite of Light, it is the impenetrable Darkness and all the things that it possibly could shroud. "Conjuring" something from the Void is simply lifting that veil for a moment, allowing it to exist.

The Void is another name for the furthest ring, you guys.

>>70253
Thank you, captain obvious.

Light and Void classes are a mirror?
But the Void symbol is an inverse of the Space one.

People think Light and Void are mirrors because when Rose went grimdark and "reversed" her role the screen went blank, just like it did for Roxy, who is the Hero of Void. I think that is more true than a Space-Void match even if the symbols do look really similar because Space is obviously attached to Time instead.

I don't recall aspects having real counterparts though. It's just classes in designated passive/active pairs.

>>70256
Well, breath and life also have similar symbols but so far their powesets seem completely unrelated.

>>70257
IIRC, Hussie alluded to it a long time ago, and Calliope confirmed it when she said that a player who is corrupted or strays from their purpose gains powers "opposite" of their original role. Which is exactly what happened to Rose when she gained Void powers. Aranea also said that Void is outside the understanding of Light. Don't you guys read the exposition?
Here's how I'd pair the aspects:
Space - Time (confirmed, obvious, more or less)
Light - Void (confirmed, knowledge and fortune vs. obfuscation and "nothingness", see above posts)
Hope - Rage (fights English/faith vs. aids English/resignation to death)
Life - Doom (confirmed, life and healing vs. death and failure)
Mind - Heart (thoughts and decisions vs. the soul and personalities)
Breath - Blood (independence and change vs. unity and stability)

So the light class deals in definites?
Like it can do anything only within what is currently hear and now.
While the Void class could just void it up and pull out some sort of finishing move or ability out of thin air?

>>70288
Well. I dunno. Rose's power, despite sometimes giving her small glimpses of the future, is firmly based in the concrete future and the alpha timeline, and is based on her being able to understand and interpret information and see how all things come together. We can compare her with Terezi, whose sight seems to have a lot to do with doomed timelines. As for Aranea, well, she has the power to... heal people by discussing possibilities? While the purpose of her power seemingly is to help people heal and grow by sorting out their decisions and regrets by showing them all the different factors that lead up their decisions, basically helping them live in the here and now, it's still a bit of a stretch.

Vriska's power is even stranger, and quite a bit different since it is an offensive one. To actually know what the role of her power is, we have to know the exact nature of luck in a universe where almost everything is predetermined. It cannot be used to attack or intervene directly since it has no real flashy power (which seems to be a recurring theme of Light), it acts seemingly on its own and it is, at times, completely irrelevant. I believe that Vriska's luck simply was the ability to change her surroundings and opportunities in such a way that she would not stray from the alpha timeline. I checked the Mini-Strife Halloween ghost party, and I can't seem to find any other Vriska's among the hordes of dead trolls. So if I'm right, Vriska's power was basically to not die... until she HAD to die to ensure the continuation of the alpha timeline, thus making her luck completely irrelevant.

And if these are all correct, well, yes, then Light definitely deals with things that are objective, the alpha timeline, the now and the known.

>>70288
More like, Light and Void have totally different concepts of how meaning works, so a Light player would say that something is incomprehensible, but a Void player would say it doesn't matter if you actually understand what something means. Or something like that.

>>70290
The recurring theme of Light that most people seem to miss is "agency," or the ability to say "I'm the one deciding what happens next." If you look at luck as a magical form of agency, you could say that the alpha timeline conspires to make things happen in ways that lucky people want them to happen. So Vriska is just sort of grabbing the wheel of the alpha timeline with respect to things she doesn't directly control.

>>70296
What you say makes sense. But at the same times, the very idea of someone holding actual power over the alpha timeline, however unaware of this fact they may be, is kind of alien. I mean, when Rose took action to change the outcome of their session, it was seen as a very bad path to take (and not only because of the powers she asked for assistance in doing so), eventually ending with her abandoning the path of Light completely... and after ascending, her role is to guide others toward the most favourable end. But does that mean that she has the ability to actually affect these outcome(s), or is it just another case of people simply surfing the waves of the alpha timeline?

While I'm a bit unsure of my theory now, I still believe that it makes more sense if Luck simply allows the player to successfully travel through the alpha timeline with few to none complications, rather than actually directing its flow. Because, well, can ANYONE really decide the outcome of things in a world where very little can be done to change the path of fate, and when does paradox space judge that someone who holds such power over the result of things should die?

Aradia had power over the alpha time line in a offhanded way; she was after all the maid of time who made sure things happened in the way and order that they were supposed to.

>>70303
Well, yes. All characters have a "responsibility" towards the alpha timeline, Time players more so than others, and ignoring or straying from that responsibility is either A) meant to happen (see Rose) or B) incredibly fucking stupid and you're doomed. Making sure things go right and preventing doomed timelines is not the same things as influencing the final outcome, it's simply trying to stay on top of the surfboard and ride that great wave all the way til the end.

>>70301
There's a theory going around that Sburb players are the ones who decide what happens in the alpha timeline. Skaia and the horrorterrors set up the playing field, and the players themselves all have a say in how it unfolds. Unfortunately this includes Lord English, and players can be tricked into deciding one thing when they think they're deciding another. So the real goal of the game is to be true to yourself so you know what you want out of life, and that way you don't get fucked over by poorly worded wishes when the genie of death comes calling.

But Karkat mentions that the HorrorTerrors have plans; he mentions as they go from bubble to bubble that they've come across other selves who have gotten farther in the game then they have; reached god tier in fact. But that went against the HorrerTerror's plans so it is a beta timeline, not alpha.

>>70311
But if that was completely true, doomed timelines wouldn't exist, would they? Something or someone is enforcing the authority of the alpha timeline, and the punishment for straying from the "right" path is to live the remainder of your life in a doomed timeline.

Whether that force is Skaia, the Horrorterrors, Hussie, the readers, the players, English, paradox space itself or some unholy combination thereof, who knows.

>>70318
Yeah, if someone out there is choosing which timeline is the alpha, then the players don't have ANY say in the matter, by definition. It's a pretty clear cut case of predestination.

What about a Prince of Blood.
If they end up going with the "destroys relationships/unity" rather than the "destroys via relationships/unity", well, have a nice session.

>>70362
You know, the same combo was brought up in the character title thread for this bastard. For both reasons.

Heir of Void