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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

File 137876169052.jpg - (260.60KB , 1600x1200 , CONTROVERSY.jpg )
180130 No. 180130
So, what do you guys think of the latest MUH PATRIARCHY controversy hitting the internet? I guess Kotaku got enough hits with the shit they stirred with Dragon's Crown, and are hungry for more of that.
Expand all images
>> No. 180131
Yup, just Kotaku being shit, I mean Quiet's design is garbage but she's meant as an anti-thesis of characters that do dress like that in games.
>> No. 180132
Do we really have to do this again? I want you guys to know that by even mentioning Kotaku, you play right into the hands. No matter how many times I point out that they're a tabloid that focuses on page views, people still keep going back or like to mention them in every breath.

There's so much "controversy" over video games and it's getting tiring. And it's not even one side. SJW post something on Kotaku, then anti-SJW feed into it and we pretty much have a perpetual shit machine working.

Really, bring interesting video game discussions back to the forefront of the internet and stop focusing on this stuff. Please. I beg you. This is infecting nearly every video game site I visit.
>> No. 180133
>>180132
NEARLY every video game site? There's one that isn't infected yet? Please tell me of this magical Xanadu!
>> No. 180134
>>180130
The bikini top and ripped tights IS a pretty shitty outfit, but there's alot more wrong with the MGS franchise than some poor character designs
>> No. 180135
>>180133

Well /vr/ is pretty good about it. The userbase there works hard to make sure the discussions are pure video games. Unfortunately, the board is only for 1999 and before.

Also the IRC channels I hang on (unfortunately I won't link them here as they're semi-private places for me and my friends)

That's...it. It's sad. I've just had it with the controversy. It's getting in the way of our video game discussion. And as previously stated, Kotaku does this for attention and nothing else. Why the internet has yet to figure this out is simply baffling. Either people are turning on their blinders or they just want to be angry about something.

Also manufactured rage is something else video game communities on the internet need to cut back on.

>>180134
>but there's alot more wrong with the MGS franchise than some poor character designs

Don't let the Cult of Kojima hear you say that.
>> No. 180136
Meh its rather poor design for desert since bear skin is very bad thing to expose to that environment. But I do enjoy the game of "I want to see how far they'll let me take this." that Kojima plays.
>> No. 180137
Asking Hideo Kojima to stop being insane is like asking a cat to stop trying to put its face in your cereal.
>> No. 180139
Stupid name, stupid outfit, 100% MSG-universe relevant. In that universe it seems the men are just as likely to get half naked as women; in fact, gameplay wise, the men tend to dress down even more than the women.

If anything, the fact that she's wearing anything up top means she has more protection than, say, Vulcan Raven (as shown) and will be construed as sexist either because it says that women require more protection then men or that men are not worth the extra protection for their nipples.
>> No. 180140
NGL: All these news articles that're talking about sexism in gaming... well... I won't say it's unwelcome.

I mean I'm glad we're discussing things like feminism and what merits a good female character. But by the same token...

I'm worried that the only reason this is happening is because social justice and pointing out feminist issues in gaming has become a "trendy" thing to do. And the issue there is that trends are a flash in the pan, talk about it and obsess over it for a couple months kinda thing. Then it goes away and worse, people start to be REACTIONARY over that.
>> No. 180141
File 137877596150.jpg - (39.15KB , 540x610 , 1365835313932.jpg )
180141
>>180140
It does seem like some kind of bandwagon thing going on. I mean I've never heard this stuff getting mainstream attention

Trying to tell the Japanese to stop being weird is a losing battle.
>> No. 180144
>>180141
>Index..105%?
>> No. 180145
>>180144
God that camo system.

Still love 3 the most. Fantastic atmosphere, great music, toned down the crazy bullshit from 2 only to throw in Cold War crazy bullshit. I wish the Cobra unit got a prequel. I mean I can't be the only one who wants to kill Nazis with bees.
>> No. 180146
I just think she could use more durable clothing.
Those tattered leggings clash so drastically with everything else.

Pardon if this sounds ignorant, but if he wants to write a more serious story, why is he resorting to old tricks like this?
>> No. 180147
>>180146
Kojima's incapable of not doing weird crazy shit.
>> No. 180148
how dare those misogynist scumbags slut shame a woman for dressing as she pleases
>> No. 180149
>>180148
But this isn't her doing as she pleases. This is essentially someone dressing a barbie to their liking.

But if Ken gets put in the freezer half naked, why not barbie into the oven?
>> No. 180150
>>180149
Because ken actually has a chance of surviving due to simple body mass and the fact that an Alaskan winter would be without sunlight. That and the fact that he's a genetic curiosity even for an Inuit.
The dessert however has higher UV intensity which would tear anyone's skin apart, barbie or otherwise. However, weather or not she proves to be a genetic curiosity like Raven has yet to be seen.

But this is all just dancing around the subject. We all know why she's dressed like that. He wanted an "erotic" or rather "sexy" character. That's pretty much it as far as her design goes.

But if I may be blunt, she's dressed like a dirty skank who ran through an armory. But that's just how I see it.
>> No. 180151
>>180150
We're talking about a universe with androids, telekenetic powers, cloning, giant mechs, and so on. That kind of logic is sound in our world, but in that world it doesn't matter in the least.
>> No. 180152
>>180151
>But this is all just dancing around the subject. We all know why she's dressed like that. He wanted an "erotic" or rather "sexy" character. That's pretty much it as far as her design goes.
>> No. 180153
It's kind of weird to see this and the Shantae thread back to back.
>> No. 180154
>>180150
Who's to say a dirty skank can't be a good sniper?

Stop slutshaming, man.
>> No. 180155
Honestly I don't see why people are reacting more strongly to this than they did to the B&B Corps, which was waaaaaay weirder of Kojima.
>> No. 180157
>>180155
The B&B Unit's first introduction to the world established them as characters much better than any promotional material associated with MGS5 has done for Quiet. There's simply not much to go on besides her clothing and basic role. Everything else can only be guessed at. Ocelot electrocuting her isn't going to score points with casual observers either. The B&B were also absolutely batshit insane right from the get go and I think that disarmed people somewhat. I mean look at this: Metal Gear Solid 4: New Traile…youtube thumb I still think that shit is ridiculous even after all the other things MGS has shown me. You either ran with the layers of weirdness or rejected them outright. Then there were all the other things associated with MGS4 to be talked about instead, like whether it would be on 360, would it even be playable given Kojima wanted to step down, what the hell is happening to Snake, etc.

We also care way more about shit now than we did 7 years ago. I could put that more eloquently, but I don't want to give the impression that everyone who comments on every vidya issue is informed or intelligent. I'm just saying, people are more eager to discuss every little thing.
>> No. 180159
>>180130
Power Fantasy
Solely Erotic character design.
That's the difference.
>> No. 180160
File 137880644288.gif - (486.97KB , 240x176 , 1372148302834.gif )
180160
>>180159
>NPC characters
>Power fantasies
>> No. 180161
>>180159
> Power Fantasy
Pretty much all the major characters in the MGS games are power fantasies, Raven included.

> Solely Erotic character design
Kojima has already said there is more to the character going on, that there is a reason for her looks
>> No. 180162
File 137880820999.jpg - (464.63KB , 640x2178 , shitaku.jpg )
180162
Say what you want about Kojima, but he knows how to write good females. The Boss, Eva, and Meryl are well developed and complex (at least as videogame characters go) characters, and in Eva's case she is quite sexualized in MGS3 and yet she comes off as a strong coprotagonist.

Why not at least give the guy the benefit of doubt? I can understand being a bit concerned after Kojima's first juvenile comments about Quiet, but why not believe him when he later elaborated on that? Why would Kotaky publish vitriolic bullshit like the pic attached, if not to bait for flames and stir empty controversy?
>> No. 180163
>>180162
He kind of ruined Meryl in 4.

>>180157
I just can't get over the "oh yeah we had the models do their work naked" or the white room stuff.

I'd ask him to dial it back but for better or worse I think it's best to just let Kojima work unmuzzled. If the result is garbage like 2 and 4, so be it, but hopefully it'll turn out better.
>> No. 180164
File 137881213312.jpg - (147.96KB , 664x650 , lol.jpg )
180164
THE RIDE NEVER ENDS
>> No. 180165
>>180163
> MGS2
> garbage

No
>> No. 180166
So we can just stop talking about this now that Kotaku is proving they are just creating a controversy for page views right? They are like Betelgeuse, if you ignore them they can't do anything but are very obnoxious.
>> No. 180167
File 137882024755.jpg - (104.27KB , 329x416 , 1378684486571.jpg )
180167
>>180166
This is the only way we ever get to talk about games I like.
>> No. 180168
>>180167
Fuck, same here actually....
>> No. 180169
>>180157
>>Ocelot
Man I am just so sick of revolver bobcat, it got pretty lame by 4 when he was revealed as "ACTUALLY THE GUY WHO ACTUALLY SOLVED EVERYTHING AND HAD NOBLE INTENTIONS HIDDEN BEHIND HIS GODLIKE JUST-AS-PLANNED SCHEMING while making Snake look like an idiot a he bumblefucked along".
>> No. 180170
>>180154
>Who's to say a dirty skank can't be a good sniper?
I didn't.
>> No. 180171
>>180169
Solid has kind of always been bumblefucking along.
>> No. 180176
>>180167
>This is the only way we ever get to talk about games I like.

Doesn't have to be this way.

It's Metal Gear. You can talk about the games without talking about the controversy, especially a fabricated one. Hell, you can do that with games like Mortal Kombat or GTA. Hardly anyone ever brings up the controversies that surrounded those games anymore. To think that the only way to drum up conversation about these video games is to lend a hand in the shitstorm portions is silly and I wish people would learn this as well as

>>180166
>Kotaku is proving they are just creating a controversy for page views right?

That. Don't let people wanting to be mad and people pretending to be mad and people getting mad at people being mad and people pretending to get mad and people pretending to be mad get in the way of quality video game discussion.
>> No. 180179
>she's meant as an anti-thesis of characters that do dress like that in games
>In that universe it seems the men are just as likely to get half naked as women
So it may be that Quiet turns out to be a good character and it may be that this is much less remarkable next to other MGS characters, but none of this exists in a vacuum. I've heard a lot of people saying it's supposed to be subversive. How? What on earth is considered subversive about having an attractive, partially dressed female character in a video game? That's pretty much the same justification that Robin Thicke used for his shitty music video. There ain't shit that's subversive or taboo about it. Subversive would be every dude in lingerie and all the women fully dressed. The fact is that Kojima made a conscious decision to make yet another "sexy" character. It's not even so much this particular one; it's that it just KEEPS HAPPENING, and no individual rain drop feels itself responsible for the flood.
>> No. 180180
>>180171
Like father, like son.
>> No. 180182
File 137884541822.png - (362.01KB , 650x1670 , beating-the-system-awkward-zombie-snake-metal-gear.png )
180182
>> No. 180184
>>180179
Yeah I'd be more understanding if it wasn't for the whole BB characters in MGS4
>> No. 180185
I think the long and short of this is that she is going to make for some excellent Rule 34.
>> No. 180186
>>180179
So, you are basically blaming the patriarchy
>> No. 180187
>>180184
Man the BB crew were terrible
Their melodrama was so thick it was laughable, and the attempt to make them "pretty on the outside broken on the inside" combined with it just made them laughable fapfodder in skin suits slinking about.
>> No. 180189
>>180179
It's like Truffaut said: you can't make a truly anti-war movie, because the very act of making a movie something an audience would sit down for is going to make the act of war look glamorous. Exploitation seems to be about the same way.
>> No. 180190
File 137884993796.jpg - (108.24KB , 400x315 , Snake_ass.jpg )
180190
>> No. 180192
I'll never understand why there's even a debate to begin with.

Is there something inherently wrong with a woman looking attractive?
>> No. 180193
>>180192

You're kinda missing the point of the argument. And to answer your question: page views.
>> No. 180194
>>180192
It depends. If Kojima hadnt have said what he said, they're definitely wouldnt be that shitstorm
>> No. 180197
>>180192
I don't find the chick in the OP image very attractive, kinda haggerd face with porn star tits and a stupid looking outfit... its fanservice but its not exactly good stuff.
>> No. 180198
>>180192
to quote someone else on the internet:

"Well, here's the thing. It's not so much about any one piece of literature/art having a direct effect (although that DOES happen on occasion). Like, I feel like you're conceptualizing this as "the idea is if a guy watches one sexist movie he will go home and slap his girlfriend", and that's not really it.

Imagine there is a mosaic made up of one small piece of tile. Except by definition that's not really a mosaic, is it? A mosaic has to make up a bigger picture, made from smaller things.

But let's say five more tiny tiles are added to the mosaic. Then twenty more. A hundred. A thousand. Ten thousand. Now you have enough tiles to make a mosaic. Any one of those tiles is nothing more than a little bit of colored ceramic, and yet when you put them together you can form a definitive picture.

That's what our society is like. That's what our ideas of "normality" and gender relations and race relations and heteronormativity are like. They are built out of a million tiny things. So maybe ONE video game featuring Syldanian Six-Boobed Slut Warriors or whatever will not have much effect on society. The thing is, there isn't just one video game like that, and that isn't the only place the idea that women are objectified. When people criticize Hillary Clinton's appearance (because male politicians are such hotties, right? Not bloated, liver-spotted, fat old men) . . . that is a little piece of tile. When a comic artist draws kidnapped male Justice League characters in tied up but non-sexy poses, while the kidnapped female Justice League characters are tied up like they're getting geared up for a video session of "Bondage Sluts III" . . . that is a little piece of tile. When someone tells a sexist joke . . . that's a little piece of tile. Look in the comments section of any online news story about a woman being raped and you will find more little bits of tile.

And the defense is always "Well, MY piece of tile isn't at fault! It's Society!" It is indeed society that predefines the mosaic, based on the piece of tile that were placed by previous generations; but it's the individual pieces of gossip, art, expectations that fill in that mosaic. Unlike a real mosaic, old bits fall off quite frequently, forgotten by a new generation. Sometimes they are replaced by a new piece that is about the same as the old one; sometimes they are replaced by a new one. Sometimes there's a lot of new pieces at once, like in the 1960s when a bunch of activists took hammers, beat the crap out of that mosaic, and stuck a bunch of new pieces on to radically alter the picture. The point is, if no one starts changing those tiles, small as they may be, the overarching image will never change."
>> No. 180199
>>180194
Yeah as far as I see it most found the statements to be lame.

I confess, I kinda hate the "let crazies be crazies/boys will be boys" argument to defend what's basically the status quo and honestly doesn't have to be that way, but I've resigned to the fact that there exists a tidal wave of empty, moronic complaining that is what most people argue against.
>> No. 180201
>>180198
Or we could just not demonize sexuality since that is itself a part of historical misogyny and general repression (sex isn't for pleasure, it's for family etc etc).
>> No. 180202
>>180201
And have you got any plans to further that cause, or do your efforts end at trying to get people to shut up so you can enjoy your status quo?
>> No. 180203
>>180201
There is a difference between demonizing collaborative sexuality and demonizing transactional/exploitative sexuality, but I recognize the futility of trying to explain that to self-centered people who aren't actively harmed personally by the status quo.
>> No. 180204
>>180203
Woah, status quo-mind. High five.
>> No. 180205
Plus4chan supports third-wave feminism.
>> No. 180206
>>180202
>>180203
I'd willing to hear more of this, link to your tumblr so I can read your full argument.
>> No. 180207
>>180206
Sure, it's right here:
http://bit.ly/1fXiWof
>> No. 180208
So how do you guys think CQC will work? Like a designated button with a bit of melee before the person goes down or like an automatic thing? and if it's automatic can you alter the outcomes? like choosing between being quiet, fatal, non-fatal and disarming?
>> No. 180210
>>180205
You're trolling, but honestly if it were a pick your poison choice between SJW and MRAs/"anti"-SJWs, I'd choose the former. The former are dim witted, self centered, and naive. The latter are, you know, bigots.
>> No. 180211
File 137886309635.png - (179.55KB , 500x570 , sorceress.png )
180211
Didn't really want to enter the argument, but if "supporting the status quo" means that I want to play games with attractive females, so be it. I too want cool looking guys, and robots, and everthing but hey, patriarchy and stuff. If by maining the Sorceress in Dragon's Crown I am shitting on Jane Addams' grave, well I'll have to deal with it in one way or another.

I guess that's my privilege? Damn, it feels good the check on it.
>> No. 180212
>>180210
But anon, MRAs are a type of social justice warrior.
>>180208
The PS4 has digital face buttons, so I don't see how they're going to pull it off as well this time around.
>>180199
The portrayal of women in media is a problem, but you can't really go about acting like any evidence of sexualization, stereotypical writing tropes, or unequal representation is inherently sexist and worthy of shaming. That would be like calling any game without decent PoC characters racist.
>> No. 180213
File 137886349626.jpg - (71.15KB , 500x542 , hilde2ym1.jpg )
180213
My fetish is well dressed and equipped female soldiers/fighters

It just looks so much more awesome than blatantly obvious spankbait
>> No. 180214
>>180212
Yeah I've been trying to wrap my head around it, very interested to see.
>> No. 180215
>>180213
Technically, if that's really a fetish, then you are objectifying the character regardless of what she may be wearing.
>> No. 180216
>>180215
Thats called a 'joke', spazz.
>> No. 180217
>>180212
Fine, redditors/btards or whatever subgroup that makes being the exact opposite of being politically correct into something self-righteous.
>> No. 180218
Didn't Kojima want to stop making these games but they sell so Konami wants more money?
>> No. 180219
>>180217
Why are you saging?
>> No. 180220
>>180215
Okay see that right there? That is you demonizing sexuality. You are saying that anytime anyone is aroused, they are embodying the patriarchy or being a traitor to women kind, depending on their sex.
>> No. 180221
>>180219
There's such a thing s a 'courtesy sage' people do when they aren't adding to the thread in general?

+4chan is a slowass board so it isn't really notable either way.
>> No. 180222
>>180215
Obviously the only fair compromise is to never depict women in the media ever again!
>> No. 180223
>>180219
Because I don't want to bump the thread.
>> No. 180224
>>180223
No more posts could be made, and this thread most likely will be in the same spot by tomorrow. This isn't 4Chan's /v/ where you could blink and a thread would drop to page 3.
>> No. 180225
>>180220
You're not allowed to be aroused. EVER.
>> No. 180226
>>180211
The difference there though is in the setting and portrayal of the characters. ALL the characters in Dragon's Crown are sexualized, Men and Women. It makes the whole thing very in-universe, and it's a little fun for everybody. Which is not actually what Feminism or the complaints against this character design are about. Sexual fun should be fun for everybody, not just appeasing to a single demographic, that's the part of the Feministic point.

But when you drop into a "pseudo-real" universe like MGS, you have to change the concepts of what represents an empowering character. The Boss and Eva are pretty good because even though they flash a fair amount of boob, they're still empowered actors affecting the story in their own right, and their cleavage is not the only thing to talk about when you talk about those characters. Meryl less so, but still, she's a young woman in the military, not exactly an easy roll to fulfill, and even her butt is kind of a gameplay element (to quote egoraptor: "that was important?"). The BBs, aside from the whole striptease thing that you only got if you stunned them into submission and then approached them carefully (never actually put it that way before but kind of creepy), even though they're wearing skintight suits, they're wearing skintight suits that allow them to interface with some of the most advanced weapons platforms on the planet. The rest of their characterization blows but tbh I kind of stopped paying attention after MGS2 and 3 ("wait even back in the 60s they had freakshow black ops teams? Okay fuck it whatever").

Quiet is a white-girl sniper in a desert that would turn her skin into a sullen red rock if left exposed for too long who choose to tool around in a bikini and torn leggings that would look trashy on a street hooker. Instead of say, a full-body cloak that would allow here to better hide within the environment and also would ostensibly keep her much cooler (know how everyone in the Middle East wears those long robes with seemingly no problem? That's because baggy clothing is really quite good at keeping you cool, especially in the desert).

I mean, I could've been really happy not knowing here gender until like 75% of the way through the game when you finally face her and it's like "woah the most badass sniper ever is actually a tiny white girl and I had no idea that's really kind of cool". As it stands, we have a not that awesome copy of Sniper Wolf who doesn't really seem that smart.
>> No. 180227
>>180226
> Quiet is a white-girl sniper in a desert that would turn her skin into a sullen red rock if left exposed for too long

MGS is full of mutant freaks with superpowers and oddball abilities, why are you assuming that isn't the case with her? That shadow around her eyes that disappeared during her close up strongly suggests that there is something going on with her.
>> No. 180228
File 137886692828.jpg - (316.85KB , 1700x600 , soul-calibur.jpg )
180228
>>180213
Haha speaking of Hilde its kind of hilarious that the creators actually set out intentionally to make a woman with a little modesty on the battlefield to balance out the fact most of their lady cast had...devolved along these lines.
>> No. 180229
>>180228
That pic is hilarious in the sense that one of the very first things you saw in Soul Blade was Sophitia nude taking a bath.
>> No. 180230
>>180226
I'd put it more simply as "her design is shit"

Its not even very sexy...
>> No. 180233
File 137886745616.jpg - (20.36KB , 465x309 , Sophitia!!.jpg )
180233
>>180229
Oh, and this how Sophitia's breast size was in the actual character model
>> No. 180234
>>180233
Uh... thats not nude?
>> No. 180236
>>180234
.... so you actually haven't played Soul Edge, right?
>> No. 180239
>>180236
What? All I did was comment on the image you posted. Where she is clearly not naked and seems to be wearing some sort of chronologically-unlikely swimsuit.
Are you talking about the opening video?
>> No. 180240
>>180227
Yeah but that's still a shitty excuse. Even Fortune kind of looked like she could hold her own without her powers. The design is just so out of sync with most of the rest of MGS that the "why" response seems fairly justified.

if it turns out to be nano machines I will kick Kojima in the balls. Not because it's Chauvinistic, but because it's dumb and if that's the answer to everything then the story really has gone to shit
>> No. 180241
>>180240
You weren't complaining when Nanomachines was the answer in Rising.
>> No. 180242
>>180241
Uh... how do you know? He's an anonymous. Maybe he did not like Rising or the rise of Nanomachines being the explain-all of MGS.

Personally I didn't like Rising because it started getting a bit too everyone is cyborg ninja instead of skilled conventional soldiers and loljapan, everyone is using melee weapons, all the main characters have named melee weapons and the only thing that can defeat the final boss and his advanced nanomachines is Sam's HF-sword because its made from an ancient katana since lol Yamato Damashii katana-wank.
>> No. 180246
>>180242
You implying that the masterful craftmanship of Japanese katanas are inferior to cowardly western pig guns?

racist
>> No. 180248
>>180246
I would like a pig gun.
>> No. 180249
File 137889223415.gif - (1.40MB , 318x236 , 1378162714940.gif )
180249
>>180220

I'm not that guy but I just think it's weird that people want to be aroused so fucking much. As easy as it is to find porn in this society, you want to get turned on by the non-porn too? Even if it means pissing off half the human race?

On the other side of the argument, the actual entertainment in question with offensive depictions of women is roughly 90% Japanese so yeah.
>> No. 180250
Perhaps I am simply giving the pass to Rising because I loved the game, but I found the answer for why Sam's sword worked to be satisfactory. Raiden's sword was a big knife manucatured without giving much shit since the HF part was there to make it awesome. The blade on Sam's sword was made for combat in the first place, so applying an HF treatment made it much better. If you took a good claymore or a rapier and made them HF blades, they would be equally as effective.
>> No. 180251
>>180249
>I just think it's weird that people want to be aroused so fucking much.
You're the weird one here. Or a woman. I heard they don't like sex.
>> No. 180252
This thread reeks of ban evasion. Too bad reporting won't help, it's impossible to tell the agents from the useful idiots.
>> No. 180253
>>180252
I love how you people automatically assume it's all one person (because fuck having a similar opinion, and fuck having an opinion that's not feminist or lolban) when a mod can easily distinguish all the different IPs apart.
>> No. 180254
>>180253
I like how I suddenly represent the entire community. Does your political opinion dictate that communities must be 100% homogenous?

I also like how you assume that there cannot possibly be more than one person with 'politically incorrect' opinions on this board who got banned at some point.
Do you not know what plural is?

Are you going to call me a SRS or JIDF agent next?
>> No. 180255
>>180254
Not the same anon, but I think is a bit hilarious that you complain about politically incorrectness, and yet call that PC pieces Kotaku shits out as "yellow press garbage".
>> No. 180256
>>180255
Because opinions must be all nice and binary, right? Either religious devotion to 'political correctness' or relentless hatred of such - that's the only possible way, of course!

Start using your brain instead of demanding that reality be dumbed down to suit your limited intellect.
>> No. 180257
>>180255
B-but "yellow journalism" isn't a racist term...
>> No. 180258
>>180252
So anyone who disagrees with you needs to be banned?
>> No. 180259
>>180258
No, people who shitpost, get banned, then come back need to be banned. That's what I said, not the stupid shit you posted.

Lurk more.
>> No. 180260
>Too much skin
>anti-feminist due to sexulization
>Not enough skin
>anti-feminist because women should be able to express themselves how they please
Western "feminism" is stupid and contrived and is used more or less as a vehicle for angry unhappy people to bitch at each other about petty nonsense to try and make everyone else as miserable as they are while under the guise of being socially progressive. it's pitiful.

And this thread is complete garbage.
>> No. 180264
>>180259
>People who disagree with me are shitposting

Have you had your happy pills today?
>> No. 180266
>>180264
>if someone gets banned for shitposting it's just because the evil fascist mods can't handle his opinion, I'M BEING LE CENSORED

How about you stop pretending that every opinion is of equal worth?
>> No. 180267
>>180260
I would say there's people who are trying to do good things but its drowned out by the majority. Kotaku is obviously not well intentioned.

>>180264
Ignore him. He's just here to stir up shit.

Could I ask a MGS question? How does anyone else beat those torture scenes in Peace Walker? God fucking damn I can't move that fast.
>> No. 180268
>>180267
>He's just here to stir up shit.

Says the one calling me a censorship advocate.
>> No. 180269
>>180266
Not him. But:
>How about you stop pretending that every opinion is of equal worth?
Opinions have no intrinsic value. They are based on personal emotional response. None are any more or less valuable than another. That is why they are opinions.
>> No. 180270
>>180269
Just in case you're serious: Do you believe then that it is inherently 'wrong'/incorrect to judge someone's opinions at all? If so: do you believe there is such a thing as objective morality?
>> No. 180271
>>180269
Pretty much.
>> No. 180272
I for one advocate a brighter future, where no woman is depicted as having the weight of the patriarchy attached to her chest. All humans will be equally flat, and at last all will be well.
>> No. 180275
>>180272
backwards, titties for everyone.
>> No. 180277
>>180270
> Do you believe then that it is inherently 'wrong'/incorrect to judge someone's opinions at all?
No. That's just another opinion. But there are consequences to everything, so one should think carefully when responding if they're looking for an appropriate reaction.
>> No. 180279
>>180218
I think this is the first numbered MGS game whose announcement wasn't preceded or concurrent with talk of someone else taking over the series. Such was the case with 2, 3, and 4. Because of this I often wonder if Kojima is fucking around with us and his employers. Not even a cerebral way, just, throwing any old shit out there.
>> No. 180280
>>180279
There was some narration by Miller near the end of the E3 trailer. Some damn good narration at that.
>> No. 180283
>>180250
No they wouldn't, because they wouldn't be Japanese
>> No. 180284
>>180203
The cause of feminism is neither endangered nor inhibited by sexualized depictions of women. This character does not harm you or anyone else and there's really nothing dreadfully offensive about the design save for the fact that baggy clothes are better for the environ and lolscienceinmetalgear. We know literally nothing about this character save that she is a mute sniper. If it comes out and it turns out there's something like the white room stuff in B&B, then yes you'll have ground to stand on because THAT was some bullshit. Until then your tumblr bullshit does about as much for feminism as EA does for gay rights. So SHUT UP.
>> No. 180285
>>180284
>So SHUT UP.
...and go back to the kitchen?
>> No. 180286
File 137893605276.png - (66.48KB , 625x626 , thisisbait.png )
180286
This thread itself seems like Bait of a different sort than Kotaku's
>> No. 180287
>>180266
>How about you stop pretending that every opinion is of equal worth?

Wow. You really are a mental case aren't you?
>> No. 180288
Worth being a subjective measurement, the worth of any opinion is itself an opinion rather than a fact. Meaning that if you truly accept the idea that all opinions are of equal worth, then you must accept the idea that the opinion that not all opinions are of equal worth is equally as worthy as your opinion that they ARE all of equal worth. And of course, because the person you are talking to does not feel that way, they are not obligated to treat your opinions as equally valid to theirs, even though you are obligated to treat theirs as equally valid to yours by your own principles.
>> No. 180289
>>180284
>The cause of feminism is neither endangered nor inhibited by sexualized depictions of women.

Wrong.
http://m.pss.sagepub.com/content/23/5/469.extract
Obviously there's some way to do sexy women right without literally reducing them to objects, but the way we've been doing it so far is obviously not that way.
>> No. 180290
Wait, who says Quiet is being objectified?
>> No. 180292
>>180290
I have no idea anymore.
>> No. 180293
>>180287
So to you there is no difference between the opinion 'women are by default inferior to men' and the opinion 'women are by default equal to men'? Is that what you believe?
>> No. 180294
Look, we're all getting away from the important thing we should all remember, that Metal Gear Solid is a terrible game series with nonsensical writing.

There, thread over, we can all go home now.
>> No. 180295
>>180289
> but the way we've been doing it so far is obviously not that way
Then what exactly do you want? The problem with you tumblr posters is that you shame constantly but never actually say what you DO want.
>> No. 180296
>>180295
>you tumblr posters

dude go back to 4chan

>>180294

Agreed, but not as strongly. I don't know if I'd say "terrible" just "batshit crazy at times"
>> No. 180297
>>180293
Of course there's a difference. The argument is whether or not the former is shitposting just by being morally unsound. Which is a pretty shitty argument for something being ban-worthy.
>> No. 180298
You guys got trolled by a guy pretending to be outraged about guys evading a ban and trolling the board.

So, trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls.
>> No. 180299
>>180296
Just answer the question instead of dodging. Unless you don't have an answer.

I'm as much for equality as anyone but that doesn't necessitate the purging of all bikinis (particularly since it's been shown that female beauty is a subject of interest to most everyone, including straight women and gay men). Just march out more dudes for sexifying... which is something that MGS actually does, as manbutt happy as it is.
>> No. 180300
>>180299
The problem might come from how you've asked a question of people who aren't here. You've directed a question at tumblr users on a forum other than tumblr. Maybe you should go ask your question on tumblr, rather than rabble rousing on another board.
>> No. 180301
>>180297
>whether or not the former is shitposting just by being morally unsound

That's not it. It's just that it inevitably results in shitposting from the person holding it. How often do you really see people with 'politically incorrect' opinions stay civil when their opinions get challenged?

The most recent example on this board is about a week old. I thought on a slow board like this (and one that doesn't get many shitposters too) people wouldn't have forgotten already.
>> No. 180302
>>180301
>The most recent example on this board is about a week old. I thought on a slow board like this (and one that doesn't get many shitposters too) people wouldn't have forgotten already.
Given that this thread popped up almost immediately after the old Politics thread on /baw/ that was about the same subject was Nuked From Orbit because of pretty much this exact discussion, I suspect the person who started it is the same shitposter who didn't feel he had gotten enough attention the first go-round.
>> No. 180303
>>180299

>Just answer the question instead of dodging.

You never asked me anything. Because that was my first post in this conversation. I'm not dodging anything.
>> No. 180318
File 137897691226.jpg - (63.16KB , 600x344 , Offspring-Fling.jpg )
180318
I like games like Shelter and Offspring Fling where you're a mother and the simple objective is to rescue/protect your babies.

Let's all think positively.
>> No. 180319
File 137897701010.jpg - (23.78KB , 288x209 , triachnid.jpg )
180319
It's a very primal sort of emotion to tap into, perhaps even moreso than Mario's implied desire to fuck the Princess. I wish more games explored it.
>> No. 180320
And I should say, you don't even need the protagonist to be a female for it to work. Nothing in Tri Achnid ever specifies you're playing as the mother.

And I should also say Other M doesn't apply to any of this because Other M never happened.
>> No. 180325
>>180320
How about Nier? It's a tale of an older guy trying to save his daughter.

... or an onii-san trying to save his darling imouto, if you live in Japan.
>> No. 180326
>>180241
YEAH BUT HERE"S THE THING

When the answer was Nanomachines in Rising, EVERYONE WAS CYBORGS. Clearly, visibly cyborgs. And the ton of the game was entirely ludicrous, a far-flung extension of the entire concept of robotizing militaries world-wide. Like Dragon's Crown, it worked because that was the setting, and you never really had to question it because it didn't present itself as a "serious" work.

WHEREAS MGS proper uses nanomachines to explore aspects of the power structures in warfare. Yes, it does handwave a lot of bullshit, but it's bullshit within context.

There isn't really context here though. She isn't visibly augmented, and there's no reason to just throw that in. And it sounds weird. "In between violently murdering people at extreme ranges, I like to get the kind of tan that can melt concrete". It's like yeah, you can dress however stupidly you want but that doesn't stop it from looking stupid, RE: Vamp.
>> No. 180331
>>180326
> She isn't visibly augmented

Those disaapearing Rorschach-like blots around her eyes clearly show that there is something going on with her, I don't think Quiet is really just a normal girl.
>> No. 180342
>>180318
>>simple objective is to rescue/protect your babies
That's not simple, that's fucking terrifying. I don't want to shoulder that sort of responsibility even if it's in a forgiving, bright and colorful setting. It's just too much.
>> No. 180355
File 137904210560.jpg - (148.89KB , 472x346 , Gladys Aylward.jpg )
180355
>>180342
Which makes those that do the most noble.
>> No. 180363
File 137906960985.png - (362.60KB , 404x580 , tumblr_mmbkcfnRzy1r0ewm7o1_500.png )
180363
>>180326
>She isn't visibly augmented

She's got octocamo eyeballs, the fuck are you talking about?
>> No. 180366
>>180363
I don't think that's octocamo, since that tech appeared in 2014 and Phantom Pain happens in the mid 80s. My bet is that she is another genetic freak or has some weirdass powers like The End.
>> No. 180373
>>180366
heh wonder if she'll have a calendar adjusting gimmick or such.
>> No. 180376
>>180366
I just couldn't think of anything else to call it, I know it's not actually octocamo eyeballs.
>> No. 180379
>>180366
>>180376
If anything she's the precursor to octocamo, more than likely the inspiration for it in universe. The skimpy outfit is to benefit her camo while giving the player a way of spotting and identifying her, since last I checked she's one of BEEG BAWS's allies and not a boss or anything.
>> No. 180383
>>180379
Perhaps she has a some sort of "natural octocamo" powers, and she needs to go dressed as lightly as possible because she obviously would need to get naked for her abilities to work properly.
>> No. 180388
>>180383
That makes a lot of sense for her torso, but it doesn't really explain the ripped tights.
>> No. 180391
1. Is the game fun?
2. There is no 2.

The reason that games are "Sexist" is because "sexism" is more fun than "feminism", and fun games sell more.
>> No. 180393
>>180391
Fun should be in quotes.
>> No. 180394
>>180393
Not really. Because fun is the only thing that actually matters among those words.
>> No. 180395
>>180394
And entirely relative.
>> No. 180397
>>180395
Just say it "fun is a buzzword"
>> No. 180410
>>180397
But that's not really what I'm arguing.
>> No. 180411
File 137919004925.jpg - (35.44KB , 238x195 , Kermit_hm.jpg )
180411
>>180391

The...complete and utter lack of self-awareness...ow.
>> No. 180412
>>180411
That's part of why I'm assuming it's a troll and didn't respond to it.
>> No. 180413
>>180411
Oh deary me. All these millions of women who sit in my living room and judge me constantly for playing a game with a bit of fan service. How wasn't I aware of them?!
>> No. 180415
>>180388
The ripped tights are because she actually likes looking like a crack whore?

I mean, it IS the 80s. Crack whores abounded.
>> No. 180416
>>180413
Self awareness, illiterate.
>> No. 180425
>>180411
It's reductionist but it's true. Why else do Saints Row, Dead or Alive, and Grand Theft Auto garner more sales and sequels than Mirror's Edge, Remember Me, and Beyond Good and Evil?

I'm all for games with well developed female characters and positive gender roles. I play a Femshep and a female Dovakin. I love Resident Evil. I was killing space pirates as Samus on the original NES. But those games are entertaining, and most games that put an agenda before the game play just...aren't.
>> No. 180426
>>180425
Are you claiming that the latter games are politics-driven? There are all sorts of dumb implications in your post, you should clarify this.
>> No. 180428
>>180426
No, sorry. I don't think RE or Metroid or the latter games I listed were politics driven. I think that the devs just said "How about we make a good game. Why not stick a female playable character in there?" and called it a day.

And I think that's all you really need to do. Whereas when you make a more "concentrated effort" like with something like Mirror's Edge, and such a big deal is made about how Faith dresses reasonably and has small breasts, it distracts from the actual game part of the gameplay. Remember Me is another example of this. Is stars a strong female character that's also a woman of color? Great!

But it's not very fun. Or entertaining. Or good. And those are aspects that should be more important. Those are aspects that will get the game a sequel and a bigger fanbase and will actually change the industry. Not just having the character there, but having the character inhabit a good, fun game.
>> No. 180429
>>180428
Basically worry about making a good game instead of trying to fill a minority quota.
>> No. 180430
>>180428
Basically worry about making a game instead of trying to fill a minority quota.
>> No. 180431
>>180428
>>180425
What about Beyond Good & Evil, one of your examples? Good fun game, strong female protagonist. Never sold well, didn't change anything.
>> No. 180432
>>180431
I was actually just thinking about it. BG&E is an example that I always have mixed feelings about. I mean, I liked it enough to buy it twice (once on disc and once on live arcade), and the game is well put together, and it's entertaining enough.

But it;s also way too short for its own good, the combat is really shallow, the stealth is mediocre compared to competitors like Metal Gear Solid, and the mini games are fun for about five minutes. And speaking of five minutes, the last five minutes of the game or so where Jade gets superpowers and is the alien chosen one or whatever felt so tacked on and out of place given the stuff before it that thinking about it now gives me Mass Effect 3 flashbacks.

It had a good setting and an okay cast, but BG&E was average. A jack of all trades, a master of none. And that's okay. Average can be good, even memorable in a cult classic kind of way. But average isn't innovative or industry changing.
>> No. 180433
Well but that's the basic requirement we ask of any media, really, that it be "good". Nobody ever sets out to make failure of a movie (unless they've discovered a way to make money off cheap shit like horror flicks). Nobody ever really sets out to make a bad game, even if bad games get made. A small team for a game on 360 or PS3 or Wii will probably have 80-100 people working on the game. If a game is "unfun", then that might suggest anything from flaws in game design to conflicts with the team to simply not having the time or money to polish and review a game as much as necessary. Agendas do not necessarily make a game imperfect. Halo 4 was terrible, for example. No Feminism required.

Fun tends to break down along two lines of thought in games, basically single player and multiplayer. The first idea is the idea of the meaningful narrative. Basically, in order to have enjoyment, one must progress along a narrative path that slowly reveals more of itself and more of the games' gameplay. The narrative is meaningful because it introduces irrevocable changes in the environment, presumably to the players' benefit (although in some notable exceptions, to their determent).

The Multiplayer interpretation of "Fun" relies on the concept of the Dynamic. In a multiplayer video game you are ultimately in an environment wherein all aspects of the simulation are "known". That is, the game is constantly aware of everything that is happening and is possible. What changes, though you play the exact same game 1000 times, is the nature of the opponent and how they approach a fight. What is essentially expected of multiplayer games is the ability to create changing experiences with each repetition, the expectation that though all factors are known, the human players act as elements of chaos and disrupt the natural flow of the fight to produce unique experiences that are ultimately generic. Their entire draw is in the possibility of difference, of being able to try and assume control over a chaotic system. Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress and Faster Than Light function on a similar principle even if the player is solitary.

MGS has always relied on the Single Player Theory of Fun to engage the user. Which has worked pretty well for it; Kojima is in some ways as big an Auteur as many of the Classic Film directors. And if you examine the industry you may find that that is the probably the industry gaming resembles most, Film. That's not to say that there haven't been missteps, assuredly. Quiet as she stands now is in the pre-release stages, and there is still some time for the character profile to be addressed in some fashion, especially after the public outcry. In a series full of iconic Weirdos, Quiet in profile seems lacking. The design is just baffling. Her silhouette is just boring, especially when juxtaposed with Vulcan Raven, who is like 90% drawn with silhouette in mind. And, without some direct indication of what her deal is on her character (the melting eyes only come through good in trailers, not in stills), she seems devoid of real development. I don't know how far Kojima can actually take "Mostly Naked Girl with Gun".
>> No. 180437
So apparently there are shots of the model for Quiet undergoing a body scan in the studio while wearing The End's camo from MGS3. From the sounds of things she wears them until she gets captured and tortured, and sticks to the skimpy stuff afterward.
>> No. 180438
>>180433
You're missing something. You don't actually believe that a single-player game with bad/minimal/nonexisting narrative is automatically a bad game, do you?
>> No. 180439
File 137924518549.jpg - (123.02KB , 900x1200 , its Pikachu!.jpg )
180439
>>180432
> but BG&E was average

This. The moment i got my hands on Beyond Good & Evil I knew that A) it was a quirky, fun, competently made game, and B) wasn't going to be the next GTA or Tomb Raider or whatever.

>>180433
> Vulcan Raven, who is like 90% drawn with silhouette in mind

You are exaggerating. Remove the vulcan gun (which is iconic on it's own), and what you have is basically indistinguishable from a silhouetted Vin Diesel or The Rock.
>> No. 180449
>>180439
Also agreed. I really enjoyed BG&E, but it wasn't spectacular in any sense. I was really excited when they announced BG&E2, hoping they'd learn from the mistakes in the first one, but unfortunately it's been sent to development hell...
>> No. 180450
And to give an example of a good game with a female protag: Tomb Raider. In the past the series hasn't been that good, relying too much on T&A, but the most recent outing is (apparently, as I've not played) superb and sold quite well (Squeenix's overblown expectations not-with-standing.)

In addition, prevalent (American, at least) attitudes can make a game like Tomb Raider feel that much better: because many people of both sexes still see females as overall weaker than men, having a woman go through such an episode of survival seems far more harrowing than if a man did it. I don't believe that Tomb Raider would have been bad if Lara had become Larry, but there is likely a far greater emotional connection/concern to a female in that situation than a male.
>> No. 180454
>>180428
Yeah but AFAIK it's not like protagonist design is what pulled resources away from development of the gameplay.
>> No. 180457
>>180450
> In the past the series hasn't been that good, relying too much on T&A

Really? Perhaps marketing-wise, but the games themselves treat Lara as a tough as nails female who will shoot the shit out of endangered animals, thugs, dinosaurs, or eldritch abominatios alike to get her prize.

Yes, the boobs helped, but she became a iconic videogam character because her games were good (at least for their time, tried to play TR2 the other day, and yikes...), and the character was cool. T&A will only get you so far, ask Bloodrayne.
>> No. 180460
>>180457
I've always found it curious that franchises that are usually considered as explotative and driven by sexualized characters like Tomb Raider and DoA, actually have lots of female fans.

Perhaps they just want to play with cool, strong, pretty looking female characters regardless the amout of cleavage showing?
>> No. 180463
Cant we just assume the Kojima is trolling and not care intill the game comes out?
>> No. 180464
I just don't get how modern games with "strong female protagonists" go out of their way to give them small breasts and short hair. The latter especially just baffles me.
>> No. 180470
>>180464
You dont watch Two Best Friends do yah?
tldr: Clipping Issues.
>> No. 180472
>>180470
yea its prevalent even with static helmet hair in some cases clipping through clothes and people if they have to move too close. Add length and physics then things go all kinds of crazy even if you make a dedicated physics engine just for hair like recent Tomb Raider had.
>> No. 180473
Incidentally, the most recent Tomb Raider game is being hailed as the least exploitative in the series, and has also been deemed the best in the series by a lot of people.
>> No. 180477
>>180473
course I wonder if Rhianna Pratchett was or will be allowed to develop Laura as she wishes. Well it works for Kate Kane so eh why not the globe trotter treasure hunter and her friend that was once the vessel of an Old One.
>> No. 180478
>>180450
>I don't believe that Tomb Raider would have been bad if Lara had become Larry, but there is likely a far greater emotional connection/concern to a female in that situation than a male.

It would've been Uncharted.

>>180473
> Incidentally, the most recent Tomb Raider game is being hailed as the least exploitative in the series,

...Really? Because I remember a ton of controversy about how 'Lara is about to get raped' from the first trailer, then heard a big load of nothing once the game was actually out. Did the complainers just shift to a new topic?

And if so, doesn't that just mean that it was a bunch of useless noise? What keeps that from happening here with MGS?
>> No. 180479
>>180473
Yeah. I really wish it was more exploration based, but everything that was there was severely exceptional.
>> No. 180481
>>180478
That was shown to be a non-issue and so yea they just dropped it. It sold pretty well but Square had ideas for crazy numbers so they've been kinda low key about the upcoming tie in comic from Pratchett and Simone and the sequel.
>> No. 180482
>>180478

There was a lot of controversy about that before it came out, but it was a lot better in-context and they actually changed the scene for the preview in a way that made it significantly worse. I still think the spectre of sexual violence raised there was unnecessary, but not nearly as much as it seemed from the preview.

Basically it was a total marketing cockup but the game itself was good (aside from the terrible QTEs and some of the worst narrative/gameplay dissonance I can recall)
>> No. 180483
>>180479
the biggest letdown was the tombs, they were nice but the payoff was very lacking in getting nothing save a part and some XP. Next time I want treasure I can put up on a mantle and stuff. I did like finding stuff on the island though and being able to actually "look" at it to find if it was authentic.
>> No. 180492
>>180473
> the most recent Tomb Raider game is being hailed as the least exploitative in the series

Once again I ask, in what manner the old Tomb Raider games were so exploitative? Not the marketing surrounding them, but the games themselves.
>> No. 180497
>>180492
I, personally, don't know, because I never played any of them or really looked into them much. And that's the thing: even though the prior games sold decently, the public in general has never played them so all they know is the hyper-sexualized Lara through marketing and Angelina Jolie. 2013 Tomb Raider was a massive change in this regard, I'd say in no small part because Lara was no longer paraded a skin-tight outfit.

>>180478
I haven't played Uncharted, either, but I thought it was far more action/exploration than survivalist, whereas 2013 Tomb Raider was about 50/50? Tomb Raider with Larry Croft would likely have been Metal Gear Solid 3, minus the crazy.
>> No. 180498
I'm more irked that Quiet's design is so bland. Even The Boss was more flamboyant and stylish.

MGS is supposed to be the over-the-top James Bond stuff before that franchise decided to go all Bourne-realism shit. Why they gotta take this away from us too?
>> No. 180500
>>180498
I'm not sure where the Bourne Trilogy connection is supposed to be in all this, but I do know that the last Kojima game had not one but two Metal Gears, one of which had the mind of The Boss. Probably going to be crazy shit in this one too.
>> No. 180503
>>180500
I'm talking about replacing the espionage fantasy films with ultra-gritty "realism". Did you see Skyfall? Shit turned out to be all hackers and Home Alone; Fuck that.

Here's hoping this game doesn't dial it back.
>> No. 180507
>>180497
>I, personally, don't know, because I never played any of them or really looked into them much.

This seems to be a running theme among people quick to claim certain games or characters as sexist or exploitative. Then actually playing the games seems to reveal it wasn't that big a deal. I thought we were supposed to be better than this. I thought we weren't supposed to judge a book by it's cover. Does that only apply when the cover is flat chested or not exposing a midriff?

She might have had breasts like basketballs before, but Pre-Reboot Lara had a hell of a lot more agency. Yeah, we can have both. But if you have to choose, which is really more important?
>> No. 180508
>>180497
> even though the prior games sold decently, the public in general has never played them

That simply isn't true. The first four games in the franchise all sold much better than the remake (TR2 sold twice as many copies), and the original Tomb Raider remains as the best reviewed entry. Unless those disks were bought to be used as coasters, way more people have played with the old games.

I liked the remake, but you seem to believe that it was the game that made Lara notorious and relevant, and I have no idea where would you get that idea.
>> No. 180509
File 137931438968.jpg - (35.97KB , 299x444 , Lara_Croft_film.jpg )
180509
>>180508
I don't understand how anyone could miss the cultural impact Tomb Raider had, either. For god's sake it had two highly publicized live action films starring Angelina fucking Jolie.
>>180503
I don't see it doing that considering the trailer had babby Psycho Mantis, Skeletor, and a flaming whale eating a helicopter. Kojima's physically incapable of making a game that isn't over-the-top and quirked out.
>> No. 180518
>>180508
>The first four games in the franchise all sold much better than the remake
Looks like you're right.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2009/04/24/eidos-shows-lifetime-sales-for-tomb-raider/1
>> No. 180564
You know, it's odd how Kotaky didn't jump (at least not yet, AFAIK) into mysoginy ramblings about GTAV.
>> No. 180588
>>180564
Busy enjoying dat money.
>> No. 180592
>>180518
Comparing Lifetime sales of a game that's been out 17 years versus one that's been out less than one has some issues that should be obvious.
>> No. 180595
>>180592
I doubt that many people bought the old Tomb Raider so many years after its release.

If anything the old game deserves more credit for selling that much, since it was released on a much smaller installed base (the Plasytation was only two years old back then, and come one, the Saturn).
>> No. 180598
>>180595
The point is not that you're wrong about the original, it's that the data sets being used to prove this are not useful. You can't compare lifetime sales of one title to six-month sales of another and consider the information derived useful.
>> No. 180599
>>180592
Even with Steam Sales, I highly doubt the long tail of a game's sale really adds that much. Maybe 20% after the first five years, at most.

This would be something interesting to study, though.
>> No. 180603
>>180599
>>180598
The original Tomb Raider sold more copies on the Playstation alone than the remake did on the 360/PS3/PC combined.
>> No. 180604
>>180603
Again, I'm not challenging your assertion, which I imagine is true, I'm challenging the evidence you're providing. Simply restating your findings does not change the fact that you have applied zero rigor to your research and are stating it as though you have.
>> No. 180605
>>180604
> you have applied zero rigor to your research

Aren't you exaggerating a bit about this? We are in the midst of a informal argument about videogames, expecting each claim to have rigorous sources is a bit silly.

I mean, the argument that brought these numbers was a claim that "even though the prior games sold decently, the public in general has never played them", which is patently untrue and the sales numbers ARE clear proof of that.
>> No. 180606
>>180604
I'll do it for Anon, since I was looking at these earlier:
http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=Tomb+Raider&publisher=&platform=&genre=&minSales=0&results=200
> Tomb Raider PS 1996 4.63
> Tomb Raider (2013) PS3 2013 1.43
> Tomb Raider (2013) X360 2013 1.17
> Tomb Raider (2013) PC N/A 0.19
>2013 Total: 2.79 M (Worldwide)
Which is less than the 4 M claimed by Squeenix (published when they stated how bad a number that apparently is), but even that claim is less than the PS number given.

'Course, if their 2013 numbers are off, their 1996 ones likely are as well. Question is if it's by the same ratio or if it skews the other way...
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