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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

File 137876169052.jpg - (260.60KB , 1600x1200 , CONTROVERSY.jpg )
180130 No. 180130
So, what do you guys think of the latest MUH PATRIARCHY controversy hitting the internet? I guess Kotaku got enough hits with the shit they stirred with Dragon's Crown, and are hungry for more of that.
156 posts omitted. Last 50 shown. Expand all images
>> No. 180412
>>180411
That's part of why I'm assuming it's a troll and didn't respond to it.
>> No. 180413
>>180411
Oh deary me. All these millions of women who sit in my living room and judge me constantly for playing a game with a bit of fan service. How wasn't I aware of them?!
>> No. 180415
>>180388
The ripped tights are because she actually likes looking like a crack whore?

I mean, it IS the 80s. Crack whores abounded.
>> No. 180416
>>180413
Self awareness, illiterate.
>> No. 180425
>>180411
It's reductionist but it's true. Why else do Saints Row, Dead or Alive, and Grand Theft Auto garner more sales and sequels than Mirror's Edge, Remember Me, and Beyond Good and Evil?

I'm all for games with well developed female characters and positive gender roles. I play a Femshep and a female Dovakin. I love Resident Evil. I was killing space pirates as Samus on the original NES. But those games are entertaining, and most games that put an agenda before the game play just...aren't.
>> No. 180426
>>180425
Are you claiming that the latter games are politics-driven? There are all sorts of dumb implications in your post, you should clarify this.
>> No. 180428
>>180426
No, sorry. I don't think RE or Metroid or the latter games I listed were politics driven. I think that the devs just said "How about we make a good game. Why not stick a female playable character in there?" and called it a day.

And I think that's all you really need to do. Whereas when you make a more "concentrated effort" like with something like Mirror's Edge, and such a big deal is made about how Faith dresses reasonably and has small breasts, it distracts from the actual game part of the gameplay. Remember Me is another example of this. Is stars a strong female character that's also a woman of color? Great!

But it's not very fun. Or entertaining. Or good. And those are aspects that should be more important. Those are aspects that will get the game a sequel and a bigger fanbase and will actually change the industry. Not just having the character there, but having the character inhabit a good, fun game.
>> No. 180429
>>180428
Basically worry about making a good game instead of trying to fill a minority quota.
>> No. 180430
>>180428
Basically worry about making a game instead of trying to fill a minority quota.
>> No. 180431
>>180428
>>180425
What about Beyond Good & Evil, one of your examples? Good fun game, strong female protagonist. Never sold well, didn't change anything.
>> No. 180432
>>180431
I was actually just thinking about it. BG&E is an example that I always have mixed feelings about. I mean, I liked it enough to buy it twice (once on disc and once on live arcade), and the game is well put together, and it's entertaining enough.

But it;s also way too short for its own good, the combat is really shallow, the stealth is mediocre compared to competitors like Metal Gear Solid, and the mini games are fun for about five minutes. And speaking of five minutes, the last five minutes of the game or so where Jade gets superpowers and is the alien chosen one or whatever felt so tacked on and out of place given the stuff before it that thinking about it now gives me Mass Effect 3 flashbacks.

It had a good setting and an okay cast, but BG&E was average. A jack of all trades, a master of none. And that's okay. Average can be good, even memorable in a cult classic kind of way. But average isn't innovative or industry changing.
>> No. 180433
Well but that's the basic requirement we ask of any media, really, that it be "good". Nobody ever sets out to make failure of a movie (unless they've discovered a way to make money off cheap shit like horror flicks). Nobody ever really sets out to make a bad game, even if bad games get made. A small team for a game on 360 or PS3 or Wii will probably have 80-100 people working on the game. If a game is "unfun", then that might suggest anything from flaws in game design to conflicts with the team to simply not having the time or money to polish and review a game as much as necessary. Agendas do not necessarily make a game imperfect. Halo 4 was terrible, for example. No Feminism required.

Fun tends to break down along two lines of thought in games, basically single player and multiplayer. The first idea is the idea of the meaningful narrative. Basically, in order to have enjoyment, one must progress along a narrative path that slowly reveals more of itself and more of the games' gameplay. The narrative is meaningful because it introduces irrevocable changes in the environment, presumably to the players' benefit (although in some notable exceptions, to their determent).

The Multiplayer interpretation of "Fun" relies on the concept of the Dynamic. In a multiplayer video game you are ultimately in an environment wherein all aspects of the simulation are "known". That is, the game is constantly aware of everything that is happening and is possible. What changes, though you play the exact same game 1000 times, is the nature of the opponent and how they approach a fight. What is essentially expected of multiplayer games is the ability to create changing experiences with each repetition, the expectation that though all factors are known, the human players act as elements of chaos and disrupt the natural flow of the fight to produce unique experiences that are ultimately generic. Their entire draw is in the possibility of difference, of being able to try and assume control over a chaotic system. Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress and Faster Than Light function on a similar principle even if the player is solitary.

MGS has always relied on the Single Player Theory of Fun to engage the user. Which has worked pretty well for it; Kojima is in some ways as big an Auteur as many of the Classic Film directors. And if you examine the industry you may find that that is the probably the industry gaming resembles most, Film. That's not to say that there haven't been missteps, assuredly. Quiet as she stands now is in the pre-release stages, and there is still some time for the character profile to be addressed in some fashion, especially after the public outcry. In a series full of iconic Weirdos, Quiet in profile seems lacking. The design is just baffling. Her silhouette is just boring, especially when juxtaposed with Vulcan Raven, who is like 90% drawn with silhouette in mind. And, without some direct indication of what her deal is on her character (the melting eyes only come through good in trailers, not in stills), she seems devoid of real development. I don't know how far Kojima can actually take "Mostly Naked Girl with Gun".
>> No. 180437
So apparently there are shots of the model for Quiet undergoing a body scan in the studio while wearing The End's camo from MGS3. From the sounds of things she wears them until she gets captured and tortured, and sticks to the skimpy stuff afterward.
>> No. 180438
>>180433
You're missing something. You don't actually believe that a single-player game with bad/minimal/nonexisting narrative is automatically a bad game, do you?
>> No. 180439
File 137924518549.jpg - (123.02KB , 900x1200 , its Pikachu!.jpg )
180439
>>180432
> but BG&E was average

This. The moment i got my hands on Beyond Good & Evil I knew that A) it was a quirky, fun, competently made game, and B) wasn't going to be the next GTA or Tomb Raider or whatever.

>>180433
> Vulcan Raven, who is like 90% drawn with silhouette in mind

You are exaggerating. Remove the vulcan gun (which is iconic on it's own), and what you have is basically indistinguishable from a silhouetted Vin Diesel or The Rock.
>> No. 180449
>>180439
Also agreed. I really enjoyed BG&E, but it wasn't spectacular in any sense. I was really excited when they announced BG&E2, hoping they'd learn from the mistakes in the first one, but unfortunately it's been sent to development hell...
>> No. 180450
And to give an example of a good game with a female protag: Tomb Raider. In the past the series hasn't been that good, relying too much on T&A, but the most recent outing is (apparently, as I've not played) superb and sold quite well (Squeenix's overblown expectations not-with-standing.)

In addition, prevalent (American, at least) attitudes can make a game like Tomb Raider feel that much better: because many people of both sexes still see females as overall weaker than men, having a woman go through such an episode of survival seems far more harrowing than if a man did it. I don't believe that Tomb Raider would have been bad if Lara had become Larry, but there is likely a far greater emotional connection/concern to a female in that situation than a male.
>> No. 180454
>>180428
Yeah but AFAIK it's not like protagonist design is what pulled resources away from development of the gameplay.
>> No. 180457
>>180450
> In the past the series hasn't been that good, relying too much on T&A

Really? Perhaps marketing-wise, but the games themselves treat Lara as a tough as nails female who will shoot the shit out of endangered animals, thugs, dinosaurs, or eldritch abominatios alike to get her prize.

Yes, the boobs helped, but she became a iconic videogam character because her games were good (at least for their time, tried to play TR2 the other day, and yikes...), and the character was cool. T&A will only get you so far, ask Bloodrayne.
>> No. 180460
>>180457
I've always found it curious that franchises that are usually considered as explotative and driven by sexualized characters like Tomb Raider and DoA, actually have lots of female fans.

Perhaps they just want to play with cool, strong, pretty looking female characters regardless the amout of cleavage showing?
>> No. 180463
Cant we just assume the Kojima is trolling and not care intill the game comes out?
>> No. 180464
I just don't get how modern games with "strong female protagonists" go out of their way to give them small breasts and short hair. The latter especially just baffles me.
>> No. 180470
>>180464
You dont watch Two Best Friends do yah?
tldr: Clipping Issues.
>> No. 180472
>>180470
yea its prevalent even with static helmet hair in some cases clipping through clothes and people if they have to move too close. Add length and physics then things go all kinds of crazy even if you make a dedicated physics engine just for hair like recent Tomb Raider had.
>> No. 180473
Incidentally, the most recent Tomb Raider game is being hailed as the least exploitative in the series, and has also been deemed the best in the series by a lot of people.
>> No. 180477
>>180473
course I wonder if Rhianna Pratchett was or will be allowed to develop Laura as she wishes. Well it works for Kate Kane so eh why not the globe trotter treasure hunter and her friend that was once the vessel of an Old One.
>> No. 180478
>>180450
>I don't believe that Tomb Raider would have been bad if Lara had become Larry, but there is likely a far greater emotional connection/concern to a female in that situation than a male.

It would've been Uncharted.

>>180473
> Incidentally, the most recent Tomb Raider game is being hailed as the least exploitative in the series,

...Really? Because I remember a ton of controversy about how 'Lara is about to get raped' from the first trailer, then heard a big load of nothing once the game was actually out. Did the complainers just shift to a new topic?

And if so, doesn't that just mean that it was a bunch of useless noise? What keeps that from happening here with MGS?
>> No. 180479
>>180473
Yeah. I really wish it was more exploration based, but everything that was there was severely exceptional.
>> No. 180481
>>180478
That was shown to be a non-issue and so yea they just dropped it. It sold pretty well but Square had ideas for crazy numbers so they've been kinda low key about the upcoming tie in comic from Pratchett and Simone and the sequel.
>> No. 180482
>>180478

There was a lot of controversy about that before it came out, but it was a lot better in-context and they actually changed the scene for the preview in a way that made it significantly worse. I still think the spectre of sexual violence raised there was unnecessary, but not nearly as much as it seemed from the preview.

Basically it was a total marketing cockup but the game itself was good (aside from the terrible QTEs and some of the worst narrative/gameplay dissonance I can recall)
>> No. 180483
>>180479
the biggest letdown was the tombs, they were nice but the payoff was very lacking in getting nothing save a part and some XP. Next time I want treasure I can put up on a mantle and stuff. I did like finding stuff on the island though and being able to actually "look" at it to find if it was authentic.
>> No. 180492
>>180473
> the most recent Tomb Raider game is being hailed as the least exploitative in the series

Once again I ask, in what manner the old Tomb Raider games were so exploitative? Not the marketing surrounding them, but the games themselves.
>> No. 180497
>>180492
I, personally, don't know, because I never played any of them or really looked into them much. And that's the thing: even though the prior games sold decently, the public in general has never played them so all they know is the hyper-sexualized Lara through marketing and Angelina Jolie. 2013 Tomb Raider was a massive change in this regard, I'd say in no small part because Lara was no longer paraded a skin-tight outfit.

>>180478
I haven't played Uncharted, either, but I thought it was far more action/exploration than survivalist, whereas 2013 Tomb Raider was about 50/50? Tomb Raider with Larry Croft would likely have been Metal Gear Solid 3, minus the crazy.
>> No. 180498
I'm more irked that Quiet's design is so bland. Even The Boss was more flamboyant and stylish.

MGS is supposed to be the over-the-top James Bond stuff before that franchise decided to go all Bourne-realism shit. Why they gotta take this away from us too?
>> No. 180500
>>180498
I'm not sure where the Bourne Trilogy connection is supposed to be in all this, but I do know that the last Kojima game had not one but two Metal Gears, one of which had the mind of The Boss. Probably going to be crazy shit in this one too.
>> No. 180503
>>180500
I'm talking about replacing the espionage fantasy films with ultra-gritty "realism". Did you see Skyfall? Shit turned out to be all hackers and Home Alone; Fuck that.

Here's hoping this game doesn't dial it back.
>> No. 180507
>>180497
>I, personally, don't know, because I never played any of them or really looked into them much.

This seems to be a running theme among people quick to claim certain games or characters as sexist or exploitative. Then actually playing the games seems to reveal it wasn't that big a deal. I thought we were supposed to be better than this. I thought we weren't supposed to judge a book by it's cover. Does that only apply when the cover is flat chested or not exposing a midriff?

She might have had breasts like basketballs before, but Pre-Reboot Lara had a hell of a lot more agency. Yeah, we can have both. But if you have to choose, which is really more important?
>> No. 180508
>>180497
> even though the prior games sold decently, the public in general has never played them

That simply isn't true. The first four games in the franchise all sold much better than the remake (TR2 sold twice as many copies), and the original Tomb Raider remains as the best reviewed entry. Unless those disks were bought to be used as coasters, way more people have played with the old games.

I liked the remake, but you seem to believe that it was the game that made Lara notorious and relevant, and I have no idea where would you get that idea.
>> No. 180509
File 137931438968.jpg - (35.97KB , 299x444 , Lara_Croft_film.jpg )
180509
>>180508
I don't understand how anyone could miss the cultural impact Tomb Raider had, either. For god's sake it had two highly publicized live action films starring Angelina fucking Jolie.
>>180503
I don't see it doing that considering the trailer had babby Psycho Mantis, Skeletor, and a flaming whale eating a helicopter. Kojima's physically incapable of making a game that isn't over-the-top and quirked out.
>> No. 180518
>>180508
>The first four games in the franchise all sold much better than the remake
Looks like you're right.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2009/04/24/eidos-shows-lifetime-sales-for-tomb-raider/1
>> No. 180564
You know, it's odd how Kotaky didn't jump (at least not yet, AFAIK) into mysoginy ramblings about GTAV.
>> No. 180588
>>180564
Busy enjoying dat money.
>> No. 180592
>>180518
Comparing Lifetime sales of a game that's been out 17 years versus one that's been out less than one has some issues that should be obvious.
>> No. 180595
>>180592
I doubt that many people bought the old Tomb Raider so many years after its release.

If anything the old game deserves more credit for selling that much, since it was released on a much smaller installed base (the Plasytation was only two years old back then, and come one, the Saturn).
>> No. 180598
>>180595
The point is not that you're wrong about the original, it's that the data sets being used to prove this are not useful. You can't compare lifetime sales of one title to six-month sales of another and consider the information derived useful.
>> No. 180599
>>180592
Even with Steam Sales, I highly doubt the long tail of a game's sale really adds that much. Maybe 20% after the first five years, at most.

This would be something interesting to study, though.
>> No. 180603
>>180599
>>180598
The original Tomb Raider sold more copies on the Playstation alone than the remake did on the 360/PS3/PC combined.
>> No. 180604
>>180603
Again, I'm not challenging your assertion, which I imagine is true, I'm challenging the evidence you're providing. Simply restating your findings does not change the fact that you have applied zero rigor to your research and are stating it as though you have.
>> No. 180605
>>180604
> you have applied zero rigor to your research

Aren't you exaggerating a bit about this? We are in the midst of a informal argument about videogames, expecting each claim to have rigorous sources is a bit silly.

I mean, the argument that brought these numbers was a claim that "even though the prior games sold decently, the public in general has never played them", which is patently untrue and the sales numbers ARE clear proof of that.
>> No. 180606
>>180604
I'll do it for Anon, since I was looking at these earlier:
http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=Tomb+Raider&publisher=&platform=&genre=&minSales=0&results=200
> Tomb Raider PS 1996 4.63
> Tomb Raider (2013) PS3 2013 1.43
> Tomb Raider (2013) X360 2013 1.17
> Tomb Raider (2013) PC N/A 0.19
>2013 Total: 2.79 M (Worldwide)
Which is less than the 4 M claimed by Squeenix (published when they stated how bad a number that apparently is), but even that claim is less than the PS number given.

'Course, if their 2013 numbers are off, their 1996 ones likely are as well. Question is if it's by the same ratio or if it skews the other way...
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