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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

File 138886469121.jpg - (102.01KB , 599x536 , TAILS IS SWAG.jpg )
221521 No. 221521
Previous thread: >>220754

So apparently SSS is going to have a short mini-comic (Sonic Origins) about the founding of the Freedom Fighters? Or something? What's up with that?
Expand all images
>> No. 221530
File 138888094039.png?nsfw - (1.88MB , 999x838 , Sally.png?nsfw )
On another note.
>hentai manga
>features Sally
>she speaks in English

Nice touch
>> No. 221531
File 138888186046.png - (15.20KB , 200x200 , y-you too.png )
Um...Might I inquire as to the sauce?
>> No. 221532

So, yeah, is everything gone for good, then? Mogul, the nerbs? Finitevus?
>> No. 221534
We don't know. We won't know for a few years at best.
We just know is everything Penders ever did is gone, but common sense would tell you that.
>> No. 221538

Hope not even making a token cameo in Shadow Fall doesn't speak well for the situation.
>> No. 221542
Hope really had no place in a meeting for people going up to shoot aliens while the scientists were supposed to be fixing the broken world. Besides, there's more people out there with characters to come back than just Bollers and Penders. If there's anyone whose characters still have a shot, it's Angelo DeCesare, who still works for Archie. (He made the Nerbs, Larry, and the Arctic FFs.) Say what you will about everyone else's characters, but I'm still holding out hope for DeCesare's.
>> No. 221543
I kind of figure if they were able to use her, they'd be showing off that fact. I'm not in a camp that's too hurt if the other characters that don't come back, but at least for now that seems to be the case.
>> No. 221545

The vibe I'm getting is that right now they're in Take No Chances Mode. Things might loosen up eventually or they might not.
>> No. 221548
Did you get the E-Mug, too?
E-Mug Stress Testyoutube thumb
>> No. 221578
When's MM #33 coming out? Is it still next week or did it get delayed too?
>> No. 221583
Like everything ever, we don't know.
>> No. 221587
Well, the big "missing characters' thread on BKC is gone

guess that means everyone is gone for good, huh?
>> No. 221589
You mean the thread that stopped being about missing characters a long time ago and went wildly off-topic for people to just whine about Penders when Ian asked everyone not to? It's about time.
>> No. 221590
It's not gone, it's locked because all it was at this point was people reacting in horror about the LSC and ignoring the calls to stop calling Penders names.
>> No. 221591
Well, I didn't get an issue of the comic today.

Guess that means everyone is gone for good, huh?
>> No. 221592
Correct, 256 ends with another reality warp that not only terminates Sally, it terminates the rest of the cast, the comic itself, the forums, every issue of the comic, and Archie Comics Publications.

Archie headquarters no longer exists. There is simply a hole in spacetime where it once existed in another non-place in the underverse, since it never truly existed in our universe and is nothing more than a delusion.
>> No. 221603
File 138900520295.jpg - (1.10MB , 1984x1038 , archiere_by_vaporotem-d712uqk.jpg )
While some BKC posters went about their reactions the wrong way, I don't think I'll ever be able to reflect on the situation without thinking it's fuckload of bullshit.

Sigh. So, how about that Afterlife With Archie? Why the fuck is that so GOOD? What sort of Satanic Pact went into making a GOOD zombie story with the Riverdale kids?
>> No. 221619
I just don't understand it. If Sega already adapts so much from the American continuity into the games such as chili dogs and the Robotnik thing, and they've never called "Sonic's world" Earth, why not Mobius?
>> No. 221620
Robotnik was an attempt to pull a Bowser via compromise.
Not naming the planet is another form of compromise.
>> No. 221623
File 138904069963.jpg - (37.56KB , 735x543 , CLASSICS1.jpg )
>and they've never called "Sonic's world" Earth
>> No. 221624
Not capitalized, doesn't count! Yeah, it's Earth.
>> No. 221629
>In the US Manual of Knuckles' Chaotix, Charmy was labeled as being 16 years of age; however, with the release of Sonic Heroes, his age has been retconned to 6. It should be noted however that the Japanese manual for Chaotix didn't list an age for Charmy, as it did for the other characters.

Wha? Is this true?

I see Archie get a lot of shit for making Charmy old but this makes it seem completely reasonable.
>> No. 221630
Archie got shit for not treating him like a kid the...maybe three times post-Heroes but pre-175 he actually showed up and trying to "fix" it by giving him brain damage.

Silently de-aging him would have worked fine, he was never important to the story anyway. You can even attribute his and Saffron's "engagement" to kids being kids.
>> No. 221632
I'm not disputing Archie deserves shit for the brain damage, even though it's hella funny.

But I definitely have seen a lot of people give Archie shit simply for making Charmy old in the first place. Which, if >>221629 is true is just unfair.
>> No. 221633
As far as I know, his age was never officially given in the comics.
He was just treated as if he was in his late teens, even three years after Heroes.
>> No. 221634
You know, Sonic fans keep surprising me. I don't mean that in a bad way, just that I end up running into way more people that truly and firmly believe just off-the-wall things in this fandom than in any other. Case in point, there's a guy that insists that the "Ghost Girl" from the Hedgehog Unleashed short is Tikal. I can't even wrap my head around that one.
>> No. 221635
Is Mozart still alive?: Dr. Robotnik's secret revealed.
>> No. 221636
Has the legal status of Sonic Underground been established? I know continuing the main plot is a complete no-go right now, but the show invented its own Freedom Fighters and things. Are those usable in the new book like the SatAM material, or no?
>> No. 221637
Well, Dub had some new art of Sleet and Dingo in the latest SSSM, for as much as that counts for.

(Before anyone thinks that means they're coming to the book itself, it was just as part of a topper for his column in the magazine.)
>> No. 221638
Mixing Sonic Underground with Archie is a no go, like Sonic X. Flynn has said it's possible to get maybe a one time issue, like the planned SU thing, but even that looks unlikely now.

Alt-continuity wise it goes

- Satam
- AoStH

- Underground
- Sonic The Comic
- other misc

Technically usable as it's own continuity, just isn't
- Sonic X

Correct me if I'm worng
>> No. 221640
Pretty sure Ian said that it was only certain stuff from SatAM and AoSTH, too, like no one-off crap or anything that you know they'll never get away with (Robotnik Jr).

Also, those other continuities can be cheekily referenced, but their characters can't show up because legal stuff. Of course, how many characters can you honestly get from Underground and the OVA that aren't incidental as all-get-out? Shame about StC, but that's a creator rights thing that I'm not sure anyone really wants to disturb.
>> No. 221644
Legally they'd be available, but Sega's had a mandate for a long time now that they don't want the shows referenced much more than they already are. StC is a different bit and actually would be off-limits.
>> No. 221646
Irrelevant, the series has been rebooted twice and neither of them say "earth".
>> No. 221647
Aside from Scratch, Grounder, Coconuts, and Wes Weasley, was there anyone in AoStH that WASN'T one-off?
>> No. 221648
Technically, quite a few more appeared twice or three times.
>> No. 221650
Oh? I thought that screengrab was from SA2, which would appear to be 100% canon in the new cobtinuity.
>> No. 221651
Because clearly the comics incorporating the games more means every single word of the games is 100% canon now.
>> No. 221652
New issue's up on the app, have at it dorks.
>> No. 221653
You see, I was pretty sure the games simply HAPPENED now.
But you're right, single words in the narrative were ranfomly changed because...uh...uhmmm...you don't like it?
>> No. 221654
No, I'm saying just because the comics are going to have the games in there doesn't mean the games happened 100% the same. Hell, look at Countdown to Chaos. It's looking like it's going to adapt Unleashed in a vastly different way from the game.
>> No. 221655
It's more that the games happened...ish.
>> No. 221656
Actually, better example: The Lost World adaptation. Ian's already said it's in-canon at a later point, but the parts from the opening cutscene don't follow it word-for-word. Words in it actually are changed.
>> No. 221658
Wait wait wait, so let me see if I got this.
You're SURE that this word doesn't count anymore, this instance of a girl who had never been anywhere but this one space station, this girl who doesn't understand what it's even like down there, because some words were changed in a single attempted adaptation of a cutscene written months before the game itself came out.

We're saying that Maria saying the word "earth" shouldn't be considered canon, that we can't know for sure if this little girl is calling the planet that was confirmed over a decade ago to be Earth "earth", because "maybe it's not canon I guess".

I just want to establish that this is the line of logic we're going down, and that this is TOTALLY divorced from you just trying to find a reason to not acknowledge that someone in-universe called it "earth" one time, because if all this is right then I think we've come to an understanding.

By the way, we probably shouldn't assume that any mention of the big rock holding up Angel Island as "the Master Emerald" or Espio being a chameleon to be canon. It hasn't been established yet in the new continuity and hasn't been referred to in the games or comics since, so we shouldn't make such hasty assumptions.
>> No. 221659
>"You're SURE that this word doesn't count anymore"
No. I never said that. I said that just because the games are more part of the comics doesn't mean that it's definitely canon that the planet is called Earth because of a line in Sonic Adventure 2. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

So, yes, you did misunderstand me.

>"It hasn't been established yet in the new continuity and hasn't been referred to in the games or comics since, so we shouldn't make such hasty assumptions."
It also hasn't been established that every part of the games have happened, and it's even already implying that Unleashed hasn't happened, and that it isn't going to happen much like it did in the games when it does.
>> No. 221660
We don't know if Aosth is usable post 252
>> No. 221661
While the most recent games (Colors, specifically) calls the planet "Sonic's World," It is referred to as "Earth" in Sonic Adventure 2

Eggman Moon Explosionyoutube thumb
>> No. 221663
No they were confirmed safe
>> No. 221664
>It's implying Unleashed hasn't happened.
I don't see any evidence of that at all. All I see is evidence that Dark Gaia is showing up again.
>> No. 221665
Then everyone would already know what it was and what to do about it.
>> No. 221666
They haven't seen a single sign that Dark Gaia is coming back. Uncle Chuck was never a part of Unleashed and I'm pretty sure Tails only just saw Sonic as the Werehog and never saw him beast out.

There's this thing called "dramatic irony" anon. Look it up. Just because WE know Dark Gaia is showing up doesn't mean the cast is going to realize it immediately, and the fact that they don't realize doesn't mean they don't know what Dark Gaia is.
>> No. 221667
The entire world saw the planet break apart in Unleashed.
>> No. 221668
Yeah, and? Very few people were aware of Dark Gaia himself, and Sonic and friends have fuzzy memories at the moment and are freaking out about the multiversal collapse/etc to put together things the audience can clearly see.

It's like how it took Silver eons to figure out Sally was the traitor. Just because he doesn't get it for several issues doesn't mean it's not true.
>> No. 221669
Look, it's becoming clear that neither of us is going to convince the other here. You don't see anything saying Unleashed hasn't happened, I don't see anything saying Unleashed has happened. Until we know one way or the other, we can't say for certain if everything in the games has happened, or even which games have happened.
>> No. 221672
I am the anon who originally wrote this: >>221646

When I said "the series has been rebooted" I'm talking about the games, not the comics. As in no game made Sonic 06 and onward calls Sonic's world by name.
>> No. 221673
Another thing is that the games didn't necessarily happen in ArchieSonic in a chronological order matching the release of the games. Barring certain characters, like Shadow appearing in an an event from a pre-SA2 game, a lot of the games could easily happen in an order other than the order they were released in (especially if we ignore games like Sonic '06). So Unleashed could happen after Colors (which we know already happened in this new universe).

The only game that really references other games (AFAIK) is Sonic Generations. After that, the only thing tying them together chronologically is character first appearances. And, for the most part, even that can be hand-waved away by saying "oh, character X was on the other side of the world, so s/he wouldn't show up during this event anyway..."
>> No. 221675
>The only game that references others is Sonic Generations.
CD's extras reference 2.
3K references 2, and it's part of its story.
Adventure references CD and 3K. (Amy kidnap scene, Knuckles getting tricked "again", etc)
Adventure 2 references Adventure. (Rouge has newspaper of Tails receiving emerald from Station Square for saving them from Eggman)
Heroes references Adventure 2 (no shit).
Shadow references Heroes. (again, no shit)
06 references Shadow. (Shadow joins GUN, references not caring about his past anymore and Mephelis's "JOIN ME" ploy not working on him because he's done that shit before)
Unleashed references fucking nothing.
Colors directly references Unleashed. (Eggman finishes Orbot [people forget Orbot is from Unleashed] and builds Cubot)
Generations references everything.
Lost World references Colors.

Unless we're retconning the story so that we have Red-Orbot and White-Orbot, Unleashed HAS to happen before Colors.
>> No. 221682
>06 References Shadow
Not necessarily. 06 was supposed to be a reboot of its own as well. Nothing in the story references anything in Shadow, in fact, him joining GUN comes out of nowhere and there's no explanation for it.

>Colors directly references Unleashed.
Eggman having a different colored version of a robot from another game isn't exactly strong evidence. He doesn't say anything about removing Orbot's sass, and Cubut could be handwaved.

>Lost World References Colors
In so much that there are wisps in the gameplay, but they are never mentioned in the story itself and tacked on as fuck in the stages.
>> No. 221683
I was one of the anons trying to explain 06 was a reboot on /co/. You should note, though, they never intended fro it to be a full reboot, presumably since they know and fear the reaction that'd get. SEGA's notion of reboot, which they did in both 2006 and Unleashed, was just "this is a new status quo that doesn't need the previous games to work". Doesn't mean the previous games don't exist. And then Generations tied them all together.
>> No. 221685
Generations wasn't canon. SEGA just made a cute, nonsensical anniversary game.
>> No. 221688
>The main series game they made for the 20th anniversary isn't canon!
>I get to choose canon as I want!
>> No. 221689
Not every Sonic game is canon.

If you want to believe it's canon, go ahead. But, considering Generations

-contradicts past games canon
-contradicts future games canon
-has a shoestring, tacked-on plot that is full of plot-holes

Then it's pretty reasonable to say SEGA never intended it to be part of the overarching continuity.

But, if you ever get SEGA to draw up a list of canon games and they put Generations on it, I'll accept it in a heartbeat. Until then, I'd appreciate you stop spreading fan theories as fact.
>> No. 221690
I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing where "the big budget main Sonic game SEGA made for the 20th anniversary is canon" is a fan theory. Yes, not every game is canon. You'll notice none of the non-canon games is one of the main series ones. Sonic 1-3k, CD, 4, Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow, Rush, 06, Rush Adventure, Unleashed, Colours, Generations, Lost World. Possibly the storybooks. The only ones here that aren't main games are the Rush ones.

There's also the part where it doesn't disregard past nor future canon, but even if it did, it's a bit STUPID to say SEGA'd make a game just to then consider it not worth being considered. Even 06 came back.
>> No. 221691
>Eggman having a different colored version of a robot from another game isn't exactly strong evidence.

Sonic 3 isn't a sequel to Sonic 2. Having another thing called "The Death Egg" in it isn't exactly strong evidence, and we KNOW the American manuals lie all the time. And even if it was there's nothing to say that 2 comes before 3 and K so there. Don't be a pedantic asshole just because you don't want to choose to believe something. Sonic doesn't have some sort of deep narrative, but nearly every single game references one of the previous games and is kind of locked in a general order by that. If we're seriously going to start saying that the first version of a character just WASN'T A THING, we may as well say fuck it and never pretend any game has any place with any other game. Shadow happened before SA2. Battle before CD.
>> No. 221692
The "fan theory" part is where fans decide what is canon instead of SEGA. You see because without confirmation from official sources, anything we say on this matter is speculation.

If you want to believe Generations is canon because it was a big game, sure, that's reasons.
But it's not really any more compelling that believing it's not canon because it has huge plot holes and breaks continuity.

>There's also the part where it doesn't disregard past nor future canon
Yes it does, explicitly. ex what happened to Orbot/Cuebot, Eggman being lost in a void/no mention of how he escaped in Lost World, 06 levels even being there

>SEGA'd make a game just to then consider it not worth being considered

Considered for what? Do you believe games that aren't part of a continuity are somehow worth less than games that are? Because that's silly. It effects nothing gameplay wise if Generations is canon to Adventures or the classic series.

Until SEGA pulls what Nintendo did for Zelda and clears up this timeline mess, if they ever care to, we just can't really say our ideas are more official than fan theories buddy.
>> No. 221693
>Implying SEGA doesn't just pull something out of their ass for every new plot and that they give a fuck about any sort of lore or continuity
>> No. 221694
... those are not plotholes. Fuck's sake, those are not plotholes. Do we need to have everything spelled out to be...

Orbot and Cubot were in space. Hell, for complaining it's not canon it's odd you chose the game that directly connects to the ending of Colours. How did they then return to earth for Lost World? Do we need to be shown that? Between Star Wars Ep 5 and 6 Luke moves from one planet to another. Is it a mystery?

Eggman got out of the white void. How? Doesn't matter. Eggman breaks timestreams every each sunday, how is this a plot hole by any necessity? Hell, why are you picking on this and not "how does Classic Eggman not remember all this?" (choose your option- alternate timeline, forgot memories, etc)

And really, "Why is Crisis City" is a plot hole? We have a monster explicitly shown to be able to destroy and pull and create and break a timeline at will, why is it inconcievable it'll manage to pull off a destroyed city from a cancelled timeline? It's the Time Eater, it doesn't give a fuck!

Generations is stupidly light in plot, yes. But saying it can't be canon because time travel when the short plot it has is "there's a big monster that fucks time around and allows for all sort of shenanigans that don't make sense"...
>> No. 221696
Those weren't the plot holes I just listed, they were the examples of continuity being discarded.

Orbot and Cubot being abandoned in the vastness of space, and then back as lackeys as if nothing happened in Lost World? Not a plot hole. Didn't say it was. But it is a clear cut, explicit example of SEGA not giving a FUCK about the canon of generations.

Your argument boils down to Who Cares?? It Happened Off Screen, which is not-at-all a better explanation than the game just not being canon. In fact it's much worse, because you're saying SEGA is forcing bad writing into the main series just to interconnect games for no reason, like some sort pin-board conspiracy theorist.

The plot holes can just be summed up as the MANY time paradoxes that are not worth going into at this time. The story... is just a mess.


Like I said earlier, I don't care/want/need to disprove Generations is canon to you (I mean, I can point out how unlikely it is by pointing to the evidence, but it's honestly irrelevant), because at the end of the day without SEGA clarifying this is all still just fan theories.
And the only reason I stepped into this discussion was so people realized it wasn't canon-truefax that Generations is part of the greater continuity.

So unless you disagree with that basic premise, there's not much point arguing about the story of Sonic Generations.
>> No. 221697
You guys can argue about video game continuity all you want, I'm busy scoping out those biker shorts.
>> No. 221701
File 138912862392.jpg - (16.79KB , 241x249 , 1313547255987.jpg )

...Okay you...you go do that. By yourself.
>> No. 221702
File 138912899482.jpg - (300.83KB , 888x417 , Teamup!.jpg )
>Reading the latest issue

>> No. 221703
He was busy dealing with Professor Egg being in Stealth the Hedgehog's head over in Mobius-Seventeen.
>> No. 221708
>By yourself.

Have you seen Sally's "fan art" anon?
>> No. 221709
And now he's BONG'd
>> No. 221744
Watch as I blow everyone's mind.

What if the Ultimate Annihilator...actually just created the very first Genesis Wave. And the wave sent Robotnik to a satellite and messed up his brain like it did for Naugus. And he ended up roboticizing himself while up there.

Mind blown.
>> No. 221751
File 138922470747.jpg - (106.68KB , 400x400 , 44685390.jpg )
>> No. 221752

It was destroyed in a fire. Along with the originals of other past authors.
>> No. 221753
That doesn't make any sense. Didn't they actively search for it?
>> No. 221756
For a copy, yes. They did find one, but copies of the original thing don't quite hold up well in court, whether real or not.
>> No. 221757
>They did find one
No, Anon. They didn't. They couldn't find the contract they said he signed at the start of his time at Archie. They couldn't find copies of that. They couldn't find another document he supposedly signed a few years later. They DID find copies of that, but it's got great big massive problems, like names never filled out and that sort of thing.

Someone did a summary of all the legal stuff on a tumblr a while back, explaining it well. But the gist is that even if the courts allowed photocopies Archie will still be in trouble. They borked. They borked big time.
>> No. 221759
Chibi Monkey Khan, Iron Queen, and Iron King on Legacy Volume 4 preview cover. Archie's been removing characters they don't own from covers drawn after the settlement/when applicable.

Get ambiguously hype.
>> No. 221760
Yeah, true. I forgot which one it was a copy of. Though the point was someone was confused because they thought the contract being lost in a fire didn't make sense because Archie looked for it. So the thing was they searched for anything they could, like the other one's copy.
>> No. 221761
Link to the cover please?
>> No. 221762

If you can't see them, turn the brightness on your computer way up. They're little doodles to the right of Sonic and underneath Sally and Bunnie. They'll be way more visible once we get a good quality, color version of the cover.
>> No. 221765
Welp Afterlife is trimming just about how I expected, true love..yea.
>> No. 221802
>> No. 221803
those turning in the order I'd just about expected.
>> No. 221804
Also one of the Cheerleaders will be next the survivor either hooking up with Betty or Veronica. And when will we see Governor Keller? Money on his having his husband in the basement.
>> No. 221846
So I guess the complaint that new King Max is just King Max in name only was incorrect...
>> No. 221847
This was known for months now. As soon as the comic mentioned him only as King Acorn, everyone went to check and, sure enough, SatAM never named him, Penders did. 2+2=5, Max was gone. Why is everyone acting surprised now?
>> No. 221849
The same reason people insist on places like Artika and Avalon have to have separate articles on the wiki and you shouldn't join Egg Armies and DELs that are literally the same with a "Formerly known a X DEL" disclaimer at the beginning.
>> No. 221860
Honestly most of that sounds like a good idea. This is basically two separate continuities were talking about now, and the wiki is enough of a confusing mess as it is without combining different iterations on the same page.

Should happen to most of the major characters too, since fundamental things about them have changed about them. And it's much more legible and informative to read two different pages with specific topics than "Sonic is aged 15 (17 pre 252)" except all though the page.
>> No. 221861
>It's less confusing to have two different articles that say almost exactly the same thing with a slightly different history section and risk a bunch of dumb, confused links to the two separate pages all over the wiki than to just have one article with a pre and post history section.

Have you actually been on the wiki? Have you seen the pages in question? You have articles that just say "This place is X, a location on Mobius, nothing really happened here."

I mean, look at this.
Do you seriously think this needs to be its own page, and then we need a separate page for every single instance of the same freaking place with a different name from now on instead of just prefacing an Artika article with "previously known as the Northern Tundra"?
>> No. 221868
Not that I have a hand in any of the wikis, but I'd say it makes sense. Sure, there's barely any difference now, but that's because the new direction isn't even a year old. Laying the groundwork now so they don't have to divide pages later makes sense to me.
>> No. 221870
I get where you're coming from, but...most of these articles are a single paragraph of information at best. The wiki is such a colossal, disorganized mess that it seems silly to glut it up with even more pages when a simple "This used to be that" suffices, especially for some of the DEL chapters and locations. It feels about as redundant as making a page for each individual story in the comics instead of pages for each issue. Sure, some of the stuff on the page isn't relevant, but it's better to have a tiny paragraph on top of the page about some dumb old stuff that doesn't matter anymore than to have dozens of essentially useless articles that don't really tell the reader anything.

Heck, previously we had "Grandmaster" go to a page about Dark Legion Grandmasters and Dark EGG Legion Grandmasters, with a link back to the Sub-Boss page for...another list of the Grandmasters, but also with the sub-bosses from earlier in the comic on it. The simpler the wiki can be made for the users, the better.
>> No. 221871
Then condense old minutiae that will never be expanded on. Take locations like Northern Tundra that will forever only be a paragraph and just do a Geography of Mobius (pre-genesis) page.

Ditto pre-genesis characters that can be grouped similarly.
>> No. 221880
You have no idea how much I wish we could do something like that, but this is the wiki where the Sonic X version of every single character has their own page with no content on it.

Reasonable answers like that, or like adding a link to a "CHARACTER X history pre-SGW" page, or even just a "CHARACTER X history" page to get rid of the massive, disgusting plot recaps? They'll never be a thing because minutia is the lifeblood of wikis. You can't have an "Alternate Versions of Dr. Robotnik" page, because Robotnicus needs his own page. It's kind of depressing and makes editing the wiki feel futile.
>> No. 221881
I really feel there should be new 252 pages for each character
>> No. 221882
>even just a "CHARACTER X history" page to get rid of the massive, disgusting plot recaps

No kidding.
That's not a character history. It's detailed plot summaries for fifteen years of comics.
>> No. 221883
In the new universe, does Sally have a defined species? Has that been confirmed?

Or is she still lumped under the umbrella of Ground Squirrel?
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