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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

File 136851191239.jpg - (36.61KB , 350x248 , KellyCartoon[1].jpg )
377743 No. 377743
old thread autosage yadda yadda

It was very hard to pick just one Kelly comic for the OP.
Expand all images
>> No. 377752
Wow, that image is such bullshit.
>> No. 377754
>>377752
That's the Onion's political cartoonist guy. You can tell from the crying liberty and the B^U cartoonist in the bottom right of every strip. They're parodies.
>> No. 377760
>>377754
Oh. Alrighty, then. It just wouldn't surprise me to see real homophobes actually making something like that.
>> No. 377762
So...
why is the IRS looking for people abusing the system by making shell accounts for the purposes of getting around finance laws a problem, again?
It sounds to me like they weren't just looking for conservative groups, but it's being made out to be that way.
>> No. 377766
>>377752
>>377760
>Not knowing the Onion, or the glory that is Kelly
My god man.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/bon-appetorture,32320/
>> No. 377771
>>377762

the (*potential*) scandal is that the IRS, with at least the complicit knowledge of (however high up this goes, possibly the White House) held up the approval of Tea Party/right wing groups in '11 for the purpose of hindering their ability to be active during the 2012 election. If true, and that's a big if, it is a gross abuse of government power.

And, at least from the sources I'm reading, they were pretty selective in their targeting.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/scandal-politics-sweep-capitol-hill-91297.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/irs-asked-political-views-tea-party-groups-claim/story?id=19171967#.UZJv3cq9IoM

http://news.yahoo.com/top-irs-official-didnt-reveal-tea-party-targeting-000016562.html


Oh, and now there's this AP mess.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130514/DA68UIS00.html

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/inside-the-ap-fear-determination-91338.html?hp=t1_3

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/05/13/183726960/associated-press-feds-secretly-obtained-reporter-phone-logs

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-justice-apbre94c0zw-20130513,0,2384590.story



>>377752
>>377760

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
>> No. 377789
>>377771
Toradora. It's the fucking Onion. It IS a parody.
>> No. 377791
>>377789

I think she knows.
>> No. 377792
>>377791

I do, I was invoking Poe's Law because well, that's what happened to the anon thinking the cartoon was for serious. And it's why Kelly's stuff is great; it straddles the line between something crazy people actually believe ridiculous and plain old ridiculous.
>> No. 377793
>>377791
I thought Toradora was a dude.
>>377792
Ah, fair enough then.
>> No. 377795
>>377793
pretty sure she identifies as female, yeah TD?
>> No. 377796
>Canada Contributes to Illegal Occupation of Palestine: Harper’s Conservatives Promote Military Ties to Israel

http://www.globalresearch.ca/canada-contributes-to-illegal-occupation-of-palestine-harpers-conservatives-promote-military-ties-to-israel/5335061
>> No. 377797
>>377796
I would just like to point out the Canadian people have not supported Stephen Harper on anything in a long ass time.
>> No. 377800
>>377797
>In the May 2011 federal election, Harper's Conservative Party won a majority government, the first since the 2000 federal election. His party won 166 seats, an increase of 23 seats from the October 2008 election.
Sure.
>> No. 377805
>>377800
We fucking hate Harper. Everyone does. Even the Conservatives. He was so terrible that he was the first Canadian prime minister to be found in contempt of parliament, but despite being hated, he managed to stay in office anyway somehow. My guess is because the public tended to like the Conservative MPs, so they voted for them even though the leader was shit, and that's what kept him in. Or he did some illegal things to fudge votes, which is totally possible, because it's Stephen Harper.

I'm a bit wary of Justin Trudeau because he seems to be using his status as Pierre Trudeau's son to win people over more than anything else, but I hope he crushes Harper in the next election anyway.

But yeah, no, ask any Canadian and they'll probably tell you Harper sucks donkey dick.
>> No. 377810
File 136861312336.jpg - (77.38KB , 350x484 , jack o hope.jpg )
377810
>>377800
No one voted for Harper, we all voted for the Conservative party which Harper has to lead, unlike American election we don't vote on a president per se but a part representative essentially, most representatives equals Harper.

And while no one liked Harper he was CLEARLY the lesser of two evil, given what a fuck Ignatqiff was.

I'm voting NDP, despite the great one being dead they still look like the best option.

>>377805
Yeah, he does use that but I mean, barring revelations of being a nazi I can't see him being worse than Harper, Frankly it's a miracle that Harper is still in office that can only be contributed to his local parties (which he has nothing to do with) being rad and him just generally being the lesser of two evils.
>> No. 377811
>>377771
Yeah, I was totally an example of Poe's Law in action there. Feel kinda stupid now.

>>377766
I'm only familiar with the Onion in passing.
>> No. 377819
>>377810
>No one voted for Harper, we all voted for the Conservative party which Harper has to lead
This is why I prefer voting for a person over a party. A person can transcend party politics if they're worthwhile, but voting a party will make a person always beholden to the party.

Plus, voting for a party just seems like it would be even easier for the rich to buy themselves a politician or even a position for themself.

Of course, all this is moot with first-past-the-pole voting in the U.S., which is why we need serious voting reform before we can fix other issues.
>> No. 377822
>>377795

Correct

>>377793

Technically also correct.
>> No. 377823
File 136864717467.jpg - (44.46KB , 438x290 , mulcair1.jpg )
377823
>>377810
I vote NDP too. The Liberal party has been shady and incompetent since I first learned about politics and I don't think that's going to be any different with Trudeau. But I do want Harper out of office real bad and I'm not sure the NDP can keep the same momentum without Jack Layton, and the Liberal party is definitely regaining some steam it lost. Thomas Mulcair seems like a good guy though, much better than Trudeau or Harper to be sure, and maybe that quality is enough to keep the NDP as the official opposition.

It probably won't happen, but I wonder what it'd be like with an NDP prime minister and Liberal opposition, or vice versa.

>>377819
I generally like the Canadian system better than the States', but Harper is a really good example of its problems. Making it worse is that there is no real limit for how long you can stay prime minister; you aren't in for a maximum of 8 years like the president of the US, you're in for as long as people keep voting for your party.

I don't know why the tories haven't just replaced Harper with someone less sketchy and dickish. Are they not allowed to call a leadership election when they're in power? Why haven't the people we actually elected kicked him out yet?
>> No. 377843
>>377823
>I generally like the Canadian system better than the States', but Harper is a really good example of its problems.

Both are inherently flaws because the concept of representative democracy allows for a small elected elite of privilege to rule over the rest of us.

Now in the USA corporate control over US politics is a hell of a lot stronger than say Canada which is why Obama is more right wing than any right wing politicians in Europe or Canada. What we need is real democracy, true direct democracy where every participates, and not just politics. We need democracy in the workforce, in universities, etc.
>> No. 377844
>>377843
>Both are inherently flaws because the concept of representative democracy allows for a small elected elite of privilege to rule over the rest of us.
In our current two party system, yes. The parties can collude to play their patrons off each other to ignore actual issues and third parties. With a better voting system, term limits, etc., it would be harder. The biggest problem is that political reform requires political interest, and those in power are, for the most part, only there because of our broken system, and so it's a catch 22 to fix it. You'd have to pull something out of a Tom Clancy book to really make it work.

It's still better than full democracy, though; I'd rather have a smaller group of smart, but selfish, people fucking with laws over the general stupid, and reckless, population.
>> No. 377847
File 136868511452.jpg - (165.64KB , 1400x980 , 700_hq[1].jpg )
377847
I'm just going to dump some Kelly.
>> No. 377848
File 136868538829.jpg - (142.42KB , 1400x980 , 700_hq[1].jpg )
377848
>> No. 377849
File 13686854164.jpg - (163.49KB , 1400x980 , 700_hq[3].jpg )
377849
>> No. 377850
File 136868550563.jpg - (171.98KB , 1400x980 , 700_hq[2].jpg )
377850
>> No. 377851
File 136868552523.jpg - (142.71KB , 1400x980 , 700_hq[2].jpg )
377851
>> No. 377853
File 136868695913.png - (412.19KB , 1200x760 , 1368426691162.png )
377853
>> No. 377860
http://www.houstongovnewsroom.org/external/content/document/2155/1757947/1/Houston%20Headlines%204.24.13.pdf

>Consistently conservative in elections, Harris County residents have revealed themselves as surprisingly liberal on topics such as immigration, gun control and equal matrimonial rights for same-sex couples in a new opinion poll conducted by Rice University's Kinder Institute for Urban Research. The results, according to institute co-director Stephen Klineberg, may reflect the region's growing ethnic diversity, younger residents' acceptance of change and the emergence of live-and-let-live "tolerant traditionalists." Part of a larger survey of attitudes in the 10 -county Houston metropolitan region, the 32nd annual poll queried 991 county residents in February and March. The margin of error is plus - or minus three points per 1,000 respondents.

>83 percent of respondents favored offering illegal immigrants a path to citizenship, providing they speak English and have no criminal record. That is up 19 points from just four years ago. 68 percent supported admitting as many or more immigrants in the coming decade as were admitted in the last; 61 percent said immigration strengthens American culture; 51 percent said relations among Houston's ethnic groups are good or excellent.

>Respondents endorsed mandatory background checks for all firearms by an overwhelming 89 percent.

>They told pollsters they favored equal marriage rights for same-sex couples by 46 percent, up nine points from 2001.
>> No. 377861
File 136870219675.jpg - (29.95KB , 400x300 , rametarinsmenacingsmile.jpg )
377861
http://bangordailynews.com/2013/05/16/news/augusta/workforce-development-bill-sails-through-maine-senate/

>dat feel when poor workers learn new, higher paying labor skills at the behest of the companies they work for. High wage paying skills now accessible to kids out of highschool.
So good. SO GOOD.

http://sourcefednews.com/cost-differences-between-hospitals-revealed/

>dat feel when society catches medicine's big fat manbaby hands in their cookie jar with fudge on their face, claiming they only take what they're owed.

Oh ho ho hooooo fat boy. Wait until you see what we do to you now that we know you're overcharging between 1:2 to 1:100.
>> No. 378289
Coke hits Detroit.
Pet Coke hits Detroit
Koch Brothers put the Pet Coke in Detroit

At this point I'm pretty sure there'll be a coca-cola spill in Detroit that will contaminate the whole place.
>> No. 378298
>>378289
>At this point I'm pretty sure there'll be a coca-cola spill in Detroit that will contaminate the whole place.
How would you be able to tell?
>> No. 378300
>>378289
Considering the acidic content of coke, it might actually improve Detroit.
>> No. 378312
Is there an inverse of the "One True Scotsman" argument? Essentially, someone saying they can identify with any group or ideal they want, even if they fit none of the criteria, because you can't be super limiting on what makes anything a "true" [insert group here]?
>> No. 378313
>>378312
The description you gave just sounds like "Empathy."
>> No. 378317
>>378313
Not like that. I'm thinking, for example, someone who identifies as a Democrat. They don't support abortion, lower taxes for the poor, a cleaner environment, gay marriage, legalization of weed, etc., but they still insist they're a Democrat, and nobody can tell them otherwise.
>> No. 378320
>>378317
Well, that's what other democrats might refer to as a DINO. Although, given the way the Republican party has alienated most of its moderate conservatives and forced them to join the Democratic party, Democrats rarely use that term--a pretty sizable minority of democrats are DINOs. Heck, the case has been made that our President is a DINO. But even the most liberal Democrats still more-or-less support him and the other moderate conservatives in the Democratic party, because....well, look at the alternative.

The ones who really make a big deal about that sort of thing are Republicans, who seem to hate RINOs more than they hate Democrats, which is really saying something.

You need look no further than the "Republican Civil War" that's going on right now to see the danger of factionalism.
>> No. 378342
>Boy Scouts approve plan to accept openly gay boys

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BOY_SCOUTS_GAYS?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-05-23-18-13-07

GRAPEVINE, Texas (AP) -- In one of their most dramatic choices in a century, local leaders of the Boy Scouts of America voted Thursday to ease a divisive ban and allow openly gay boys to be accepted into the nation's leading youth organization.

Gay adults will remain barred from serving as Scout leaders.

Of the local Scout leaders voting at their annual meeting in Texas, more than 60 percent supported the proposal.

Casting ballots were about 1,400 voting members of BSA's National Council who were attending their annual meeting at a conference center not far from BSA headquarters in suburban Dallas.

The vote will not end the wrenching debate over the Scouts' membership policy, and it could trigger defections among those on the losing side.

Some conservative churches that sponsor Scout units wanted to continue excluding gay youths, and in some cases threatened to leave the BSA if the ban were lifted.

More liberal Scout leaders - while supporting the proposal to accept gay youth - wanted the ban on gay adults lifted as well.

The BSA could also take a hit financially. Many Scout units in conservative areas feared their local donors would stop giving if the ban on gay youth were lifted, while many major corporate donors were likely to withhold donations if the ban had remained.

In January, the BSA executive committee suggested a plan to give sponsors of local Scout units the option of admitting gays as both youth members and adult leaders or continuing to exclude them. However, the plan won little praise, and the BSA changed course after assessing responses to surveys sent out starting in February to members of the Scouting community.

The BSA's overall "traditional youth membership" - Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venturers - is now about 2.6 million, compared with more than 4 million in peak years of the past. It also has about 1 million adult leaders and volunteers.

Of the more than 100,000 Scouting units in the U.S., 70 percent are chartered by religious institutions.

Those include liberal churches opposed to any ban on gays, but some of the largest sponsors are relatively conservative denominations that have previously supported the broad ban - notably the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Southern Baptist churches.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints announced in April that it was satisfied with new proposal, and the National Catholic Committee on Scouting did not oppose it.

The BSA, which celebrated its 100th anniversary in 2010, has long excluded both gays and atheists.

Protests over the no-gays policy gained momentum in 2000, when the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the BSA's right to exclude gays. Scout units lost sponsorships by public schools and other entities that adhered to nondiscrimination policies, and several local Scout councils made public their displeasure with the policy.
>> No. 378346
>>378342
I'll bet they only do this to turn the whole thing into a sexual correctional facility for gay scouts.
>> No. 378347
>>378342

The BSA kinda forced itself into a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ situation here. By fighting against the inclusion of gay Scouts (and Scoutmasters) for so long, it built up an enormous amount of animus from former BSA members and companies who fund the BSA. By considering lifting its ban on just gay Scouts, it built up animus from ‘family’ groups and religious conservatives (as well as the religious groups closely associated with the BSA) who had counted on that discrimination as one of the last bastions of ‘purity’ in America.

Companies had already pulled BSA funding over the ‘no gay people’ policy and threatened to continue pulling it unless the discrimination ended. Religious BSA supporters threatened to pull both funding and their children out of the BSA if it ended the discrimination.

No matter which way the vote went, the BSA would find itself up Shit Creek without a paddle or a raft. The whole ‘compromise’ of allowing gay Scouts while still banning gay Scoutmasters reeked of a weak attempt to keep either side from getting too pissed off, but even that might come back to bite the BSA on the ass. Opponents of BSA’s discrimination will get to point to the gay Scoutmaster ban as BSA continuing to discriminate against gay people, while proponents of the ban will point to the BSA’s decision to allow gay Scouts as ‘the end of the BSA as we know it’.

No matter which side lost, the BSA would receive more criticism and more threats of pulled funding. Now it gets to deal with both sides feeling as if they lost. I don’t envy anyone in the BSA’s top leadership roles right now, the poor bastards.
>> No. 378393
File 136941388119.jpg - (17.48KB , 506x377 , Angry Yellow Frankenstein.jpg )
378393
>>378342
>Founder of the Boy Scouts liked watching them skinny-dip
>Boy Scouts consists of a bunch of older dudes surrounded by boys
>Forever against homosexuality

Yep, traditional America: a whole herd of elephants in the room and we just throw a tarp over said herd. If anyone says anything we just shun them until they leave and laugh nervously afterward.
>> No. 378399
>In one of their most dramatic choices in a century, local leaders of the Boy Scouts of America voted Thursday to ease a divisive ban and allow openly gay boys to be accepted into the nation's leading youth organization.

Oh, yes. Now parents of gay boys will have a reason to force their kids into scouting, even if they do not want to do so. Take 1-2 homosexuals preteens/teens and put them in a secluded place; where they are surrounded by their peers, all of whom DO NOT LIKE said children, and whom are — courtesy of their age — basically the worst type of humans alive; where the only adult supervision is sporadic and, frankly, composed largely of people who also DO NOT LIKE said children; which are managed by an organization that very vocally does not want them in there. WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?!


GRAPEVINE, Texas (AP) - July 23rd, 2013 - The parents of an 11-year old, openly gay boy scout are searching for answers after their son was found stripped naked, beaten to death, and hanging from the flagpole at the center of his camp. At this time, there are no suspects as all the other children deny having seen anything. The scoutmasters declined to comment.

I really don't wanna be Nostradamus up in this bitch, but sadly I'm usually fairly accurate when it comes to total cynicism.


>>378393

You DO realize that it is entirely possible for even homosexual men to have completely platonic mentorships with young boys, without there being any sexual component? You were probably being facetious, but it still continues to perpetuate the myth that homosexual men are pedophiles, which makes me a little bit angry.
>> No. 378401
>>378399
It's pretty funny that you of all people would get angry at that.
>> No. 378403
>>378401
I wasn't gonna say anything
but lol
>> No. 378404
>>378399
Or it could be that they themselves are trying to hide the pedophile accusations with their refusal to let in homosexuals as a distraction.
>> No. 378407
>>378399

For the record, the ban on gay Scouts remains in place until the 1st of January next year.
>> No. 378417
>>378407
I can see all of the anti-gay members of the Boy Scouts leaving the organization because of this. That way the ones who stay, will be find with openly gay boyscout leaders and than vote on it in the next one or two years from now.

Although I hate to say it corporations are the big pushers for LGBT equality and openness in America, even though I hate corporations and their attacks on workers.
>> No. 378418
>>378342
>In one of their most dramatic choices in a century, local leaders of the Boy Scouts of America voted Thursday to ease a divisive ban and allow openly gay boys to be accepted into the nation's leading youth organization.
I guess the scouters recognized that since they're already fucking the kids, they might as well be gay kids.

>>378399
>You DO realize that it is entirely possible for even homosexual men to have completely platonic mentorships with young boys, without there being any sexual component?
You do realize the opposite is possible as well, that gay men can be pedophiles? And that if they are, they may seek out and concentrate in an organization where they get to spend a lot of time with boys alone in the wilderness? Not exactly a stretch of the imagination.

Calm down he's not indicting the entire homosexual population, just a small cutout of it.
>> No. 378421
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/05/24/ted-cruz-vs-john-mccain-welcome-to-the-new-normal-in-the-senate/

Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) and Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) feuded this week. Then they feuded some more. It wasn’t the first time tensions between the longtime senator and the freshman tea party favorite flared up. And it’s a pretty safe bet that it won’t be the last.

The dispute between McCain and his allies and Cruz and his cohort lays bare a new fault line in the Senate GOP Conference — one that threatens to further stall movement in a legislative chamber already seized by partisan gridlock.
(Alex Wong/Getty Images)

Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas), pictured in center. (Alex Wong/Getty Images)

At issue this week: the budget. The setting: the Senate floor. Cruz, along with Republican Sens. Rand Paul of Kentucky, Marco Rubio of Florida, and Mike Lee of Utah called for Senate Republicans to block efforts to move the budget debate to a conference committee (both the House and Senate have separately passed budgets) without a guarantee Democrats won’t surreptitiously try to insert an automatic increase to the nation’s debt limit through a procedural tactic.

“We could go to conference right now, today, if the Democrats would simply say, we won’t raise the debt ceiling with just using 50 votes,” Cruz said on the Senate floor Thursday.

McCain, along with moderate Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) and others, have challenged their conservative colleagues, decrying the effort to delay, especially after Senate Democrats finally passed a budget for the first time in three years. The obstruction, McCain said Thursday, threatens to “paralyze the process.”

“How do we reconcile legislation that’s been passed by one body and the other body? That’s what we’ve been doing for a couple hundred years. Perhaps the senator from Utah doesn’t know about that,” McCain said in a dig against Lee, a tea party-backed senator who unseated incumbent Republican Robert Bennett in 2010.

In an effort to assuage concerns — or perhaps highlight his belief that they are unfounded — McCain pointed to the fact that the House GOP majority will also be a part of the conference process, protecting against the outcome feared by the conservative senators.

But none of it would sway Cruz, who has quickly established himself as the fiery voice of the right in the Senate.

“I will suggest to my friend from Arizona, there may be more wacko birds in the Senate than is suspected,” the Texas senator said Thursday, before wagering McCain could not secure the willingness of most Senate Republicans to allow the risk of Democrats raising the debt ceiling.

So confident was Cruz that he offered to wear an Arizona Diamondbacks hat at a Houston Astros home baseball game if he was proven incorrect.

The House GOP has been riven by discord since the 2010 wave election ushered in a new class of lawmakers with little regard for the “way things work” or loyalty to party leadership. In the more orderly Senate, we are starting to see something similar take place. It’s grown clear that the disputes between McCain and Cruz are not limited to a single issue. Budget fight? Check. Foreign policy spat? Done.

Cruz’s “wacko birds” remark was a reference to a pejorative label McCain gave him, Paul and Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich.) earlier this year. McCain and his close ally, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), objected strongly to Paul’s marathon filibuster over the Obama administration’s use of unmanned aerial drones. Joining Paul were Cruz, other conservatives, and notably, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), who has been mindful of his image on the right among as he seeks to avoid a primary threat in 2014.

With the departure of Jim DeMint, who for years was GOP antagonist No. 1 in the upper chamber, there was a gap on the political right of the Senate at the beginning of the 113th Congress. Cruz, with his staunch conservatism and outspoken style, is filling that space with his blistering criticism of Democrats, and as this week showed, Republicans too.

With the rise of Paul, Cruz, and to a lesser extent Lee, the effect of conservative Senate victories (all three defeated more moderate Republicans in contested intraparty fights) in recent years is becoming more and more obvious. McCain, given his seniority and political style, isn’t one to back down from a fight. Neither is Cruz.

And while that means more fireworks on the Senate floor, it could also slow a legislative process that has already been panned for moving at a snail’s pace during the past several years.
>> No. 378423
>>378421
I know most of you should think I should be a kee-jerk liberal and attack Ted Cruz, but I'm not. I think him because he speaks his mind and attacks both sides of the political parities, like when he filibustered John Brennan confirmation over drones, something I agreed with.
>> No. 378424
Code Pink Completely Destroys …youtube thumb

:)
>> No. 378425
>>378424
Fuck that guy, can't believe I voted for him twice. He's more corrupt than Bush he just covers it up well.
>> No. 378426
>>378425
i'm... baffled to say the least. disappointed and even horrified when it comes to issues of dealing with anything that resembles "enemy combatants". this is not the man i voted for. ...

thinking maybe the dems should have gone with Hillary after all.
>> No. 378427
>>378424
Isn't Code Pink the same organization that completely fumbled their protest about Gitmo the other day, right before Obama went in to his demand that Congress allow him to close it?
>> No. 378428
>>378426
> this is not the man i voted for. ...
Yeah it is, he just tricked us into thinking he was someone else. And Hillary? She's his secretary of state, in charge of all foreign affairs. I doubt she doesn't know what's going on.

I feel so fucking betrayed, never going to vote again because my judgement is obviously shit.
>> No. 378429
>>378425
>Fuck that guy, can't believe I voted for him twice. He's more corrupt than Bush he just covers it up well.

Good thing I didn't. I voted for Jill Stein/Green Party. Best vote I ever made and first time I voted.

If more people vote third party we can create a much stronger movement for the left, like Ralf Nader did.
>> No. 378430
>>378428
>I feel so fucking betrayed, never going to vote again because my judgement is obviously shit.
The next tea party candidate thanks you for your cynicism.
>> No. 378431
>>378428
>hillary still sec of state
check your current events.
>> No. 378432
>>378429
>Good thing I voted for the Green Party
Truly, your wisdom knows no bound.
>> No. 378433
>>378432
>Truly, your wisdom knows no bound.

Do I detect sarcasm? Because real stupidity is voting for the Goldman Sachs puppet who drops drones on innocent civilians.
>> No. 378435
Obama is doing the best he can, given what he has, where he is. It's not like he can just kick the lame duck congress out and get campaign finance reform passed by himself. If you haven't noticed, his study-buddy is spending the country's time and money trying to repeal the ACA FOR THE 37TH TIME IN A ROW and likely it'll be an even forty or more, before all is said and done. It's just the nature of the beast we're working with. We ARE making progress, and this gordion knot of corrupt motherfucking bullshit IS breaking apart. It's so erratic now that the Tea Party is like watching an ideological wounded animal flail and bleed everywhere as it realizes its own imminent death.

Hillary, Jill Stein, all of them would be dealing with the exact same den of disgusting cats and pigs Obama is dealing with now, and any difference is unlikely. The stuff put in motion just by the ACA alone

Meanwhile.. this is a thing.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013/04/10/12479/release-offshore-records-draws-worldwide-response

And so is this
http://energy.gov/articles/moniz-tesla-repayment-shows-strength-energy-department-s-overall-loan-portfolio
>Tesla Motors repays entire government loan- 9 years early.

And so is this.
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_1_01_a
>> No. 378436
>>378433
Really? Because I would think real stupidity would be throwing your vote away on a candidate who will not possibly win, when your vote could mean the difference between being ruled by the Beast and being ruled by the Smiler.
>> No. 378437
>>378435
ahem. Pardon me.
The ACA alone was something I never would have imagined happening. I assumed in order for this chip in the pile to set into place, we'd have needed to fix gerrymandering, fix campaign finance reform, and fix politicians who just vote for stupid shit on behalf of the corporate welfare state.
But I was wrong. It was plotted, it was drawn up, it was turned to law. And the tools and new utility it's giving neutral parties to scrutinize, to question, to force the healthcare and insurance industry to justify its own expenses, is playing havoc on their unchallenged authority to do whatever they want. It's not a single payer federal form of healthcare, but it's the medication we needed in order to address the stupid shit impeding actual progress.

and I don't know if Hillary or Stein could've made this happen. I really do not believe they could.
>> No. 378438
>>378437
If Hillary ever comes into power then her focus isn't going to be domestic. There's a reason she was made Secretary of State in Obama's first term, and it's because she's a foreign policy ballbuster. Her main interest would probably be undercutting China and Russia at every imaginable turn and restoring a unified West as the absolute power in global affairs.
>> No. 378439
>>378435
>Obama is doing the best he can, given what he has,

Why didn't he give us a single payer healthcare system, and not crap like Obamacare which gives even more power to the insurance companies which is the reason the US has the highest cost of healthcare in the world?

He could have pushed for single payer or even a public opinion, but no. He didn't. If he had just called it "medicare for all" and not "single payer" he could have gotten it passed, with overwhelming majority of Americans supporting it.

Obama is a corporatist and opportunist. That' why he's always looking to "comprise" aka give Republicans whatever the fuck they want, be it cuts to social security, etc. Pure and simple. Chris Hedges sums it all up pretty well in his book the Death of the Liberal Class:

"profile of typical politicians: they’re either mediocre (Obama) or venal (Bush)" - Chris Hedges
>> No. 378440
>>378439
Okay first of all if you think Obamacare gives more power to insurance companies then you're either delusional or just a troll. Secondly, you do realize that being president doesn't make you all powerful right? You remember that Congress is free to do as they please and that republicans declared they would refuse to act bipartisanly when Obama was elected right? And thus in order to get ANYTHING past them he has to pander to them to an extent right?

You are both shockingly ignorant of how the political system works and accusing the man of a lot of things that have nothing to do with him.
>> No. 378441
>>378436
>Really? Because I would think real stupidity would be throwing your vote away on a candidate who will not possibly win, when your vote could mean the difference between being ruled by the Beast and being ruled by the Smiler.

I live a blue state (Pennsylvania). I'm not "throwing my vote" away, because of the electoral college doesn't consider popular vote, only electoral college votes given by the states. Pennsylvania was going to vote for Obama anyway so I voted for Jill Stein.

I know all to well the Green party wasn't going to win. You vote for who the best candidate is, and Obama and Romney was pretty much the same fucking candidate. Throwing your vote away is voting for the corporate controlled Democratic or Republican parties.

Plus Obama is a war criminal who has killed thousands of innocent civilians and signed the NDAA 2012 into law which allows the US government to detain US civilians without trail forever.
>> No. 378442
>>378441
>Obama and Romney was pretty much the same fucking candidate
The width and depth of your idiocy is truly shocking.

>>378441
>signed the NDAA 2012 into law which allows the US government to detain US civilians without trail forever
We've been doing this since Lincoln. Again, not something you can blame on Obama really.
>> No. 378443
RK is basically the liberal version of the Tea Party.
>> No. 378444
>>378440
>Okay first of all if you think Obamacare gives more power to insurance companies then you're either delusional or just a troll.

Obamacare is just a bailout for the big pharam companies. It forces us to buy PRIVATE insurance from the big pharama companies. This healthcare plan was implemented by Romney and created by the conservative Heritage Foundation. It's going to increase costs in healthcare, there are numerous exceptions from Obamacare. Big pharam companies are dropping people for all kind of conditions they don't feel like covering.

We could have gotten unvierseal single payer healthcare in 2009-2010, but instead we get shit like Obamacare. Even Richard Nixon wanted a more liberal healthcare reform.

> Secondly, you do realize that being president doesn't make you all powerful right?

Don't you start with this bullshit. Obama and his political party controlled BOTH houses in Congress, and still no universal healthcare. What we got was shit.

>You remember that Congress is free to do as they please

Obama said before he got elected he opposed single payer healthcare and would not push for it.

>that republicans declared they would refuse to act bipartisanly when Obama was elected right?

Democrats controlled both houses after Obama got elected.

>And thus in order to get ANYTHING past them he has to pander to them to an extent right?

But they still didn't vote for Obamacare, even though it's a conservative healthcare system. Every Republican voted against it. Every single one.
>> No. 378445
>>378444
>We could have gotten unvierseal single payer healthcare in 2009-2010
I forgot that when you get elected, you're given access to the presidential magic wand.
>> No. 378447
File 136944855544.jpg - (17.83KB , 320x320 , mitt-and-obama-are-the-same.jpg )
378447
>>378442
>The width and depth of your idiocy is truly shocking.

You are an idiot for being and Obama apologist.

Both where sponsored by the big corporations, like Goldman Sachs.
Both implemented Obamacare/Romneycare where they govern.
Both support illegal drones strikes killing innocent civilians.
Both don't care a shit about the poor.
Both support NDAA, Patriot Act, FISA, etc.

Pic very related.

I'm the only one here arguing for us to return our civil liberties, stop the overseas wars, implement single payer healthcare for all, etc. and yet you think I'm an "idiot". Ok maybe in bizarro world.

>We've been doing this since Lincoln. Again, not something you can blame on Obama really.

Never US civilians. How would you feel if you didn't get a trail, taken to a secret prison, and weren't even told why you were being held there? That's what the people in Gitmo are dealing with, something Obama has also has flip flopped on and hasn't closed.

>>378443
>RK is basically the liberal version of the Tea Party.

Not really. Most of what I support the majority of American people support. I'm a populist.
>> No. 378448
>>378447
>I'm a populist.
No, no you aren't. You are a delusional utopian who doesn't understand how the world works.
>> No. 378453
>>378441
>RK is basically the liberal version of the Tea Party.
No, he's just the regular version of the Tea Party. The idea that both parties are essentially the same is classic Tea Party rhetoric, and the meme is part of a Republican strategy to dismantle the power of liberal/populist movements. By convincing young people that their vote doesn't matter because both parties are the same, Republicans have managed to control the country for the majority of the years since Reagan.

If young people actually thought their vote mattered, the Republicans would never get away with the shit they get away with. Whether he knows it or not, RainbowKid is a Republican.
>> No. 378456
>>378453
No I still vote. And I would never vote Republican, and if I had only two choices on a ballot I would choose the Democrat. I've called the Republican party Nazis, racist, homophobes, fascist, etc. so stop attacking like I'm a support of that party.

>the Republicans would never get away with the shit they get away with.

What about Democrats doing what Republicans want, like trying to cut social security or medicare? Are we apposed to just sit here and take it? We vote and keep voting them in, but the Democratic party keeps fucking us over, like the Mayor of Chicago fucking over the school teachers and poor kids in low income neighborhoods by closing the schools down.

Liberals are apposed to force politicians to enact progressive legislation, and yet liberals haven't done their job. Instead they say "Obama's done the best he can" and just go vote and go home and wonder why Obama keeps implementing stuff you think Republicans would push for.

Where did all of the anti-war protesters go when Obama became president, other than code pink? What we need is liberals protesting for Obama to stop the Keystone pipe line, end the wars, implement real healthcare reform, support federal legalized marriage equality, etc.
>> No. 378458
File 136945176689.jpg - (26.34KB , 300x300 , 1363811736_5987_holder%20FastFurious.jpg )
378458
>>378448
And you're an Obamabot right along with Rametarin. You'd make excuses for him no matter what he did.

Like appointing a tax dodger, a criminal, as head of IRS. Or a known crony as Secretary of Health and Human Services. Or using executive privilege to burn the evidence of a murder and an act of war. Or how about using the IRS to bully opposing parties. Or leaking classified information meant to protect lives of service members in order to bolster appearance of strength. Or how about spying on and extorting journalists who want to report on his failures. A man who signed NDAA into existence and expanded the Patriot act.

Where do you get off making excuses for him? He's as bad as Bush, maybe worse. The Obama administration is full of scandals, one after another, not passing universal healthcare is the very smallest on a long list of failures and criminal acts for which any other president would be impeached.
>> No. 378462
>>378458
>He's as bad as Bush, maybe worse.

I agree. Obama is worse on civil liberties than Bush ever was that's for sure.
>> No. 378465
>>378456
> And I would never vote Republican
Voting Green is voting Republican.
>> No. 378467
>>378465
Just like voting tea party is voting Obama, right?
>> No. 378468
>>378467
If the Tea Party splits off into its own party, then yes, voting for the Tea Party will be voting for the Democrats. That's why the Republican Civil War is such a big deal.
>> No. 378471
>>378465
>Voting Green is voting Republican.

Not at all. In Arkansas, they elected their second member of the state legislature who is a member of the Green Party.

There are numerous mayors who are members of the Green Party. The Green Party is the 4th largest party in the USA behind the Libertarian party.

Voting for Obama is voting Republican, because Obama is pretty much a moderate Republican.
>> No. 378472
Fuck. This thread is reminding me why I hate politics, even if it's bad to be apathetic too.
>> No. 378473
>>378465
>Voting Green is
voting Green.

The vote doesn't go to the republicans and isn't subtracted from democrats either, it's a green vote.

What are you smoking.
>> No. 378474
>>378471
We were talking about national elections. The Green Party can (rarely) win elections in local and even State level positions. They can't win a presidential election.

>Voting for Obama is voting Republican, because Obama is pretty much a moderate Republican.
Yes, he is. he is pretty much a moderate Republican, in an age when there are no moderate Republicans anymore. Last election we had two choices: Center Right or Far Right. You chose to abstain, rather than help the rest of us fight for a better world. You will accept only a perfect solution, not "steps in the right direction." Just like the classic Republican argument against things like Background Checks or Gun Registration--"it wouldn't stop EVERY gun crime, so the fact that it would stop a few is meaningless."
>> No. 378475
>>378474
>They can't win a presidential election.

Ralph Nader won 2% of the vote n 2000. If we had kept pushing it would have been 5% and than he would have been allowed in the national debates, like third party candidate Ross Perot n 1992. Than we could win. Wake up you fool. You are being duped by the two party dictatorship.

In 2016 Hilliary Clinton is probably going to win and I'm going to vote third party again because I'm sick and tired of being fucked over, be it Bush or Obama, both tools of the corporate state.
>> No. 378476
>>378475
>Ralph Nader won 2% of the vote n 2000.
OH MY GOD YOU ARE A NADER SUPPORTER

YOU ARE LITERALLY THE WORST POSTER ON THIS BOARD
>> No. 378477
>>378475
I don't see how you expect 5% to become 34%. Especially given that, if a third party did get 5% of the vote, the debates would be changed to require 10%.

The game is rigged. You're never going to win the Terrance and Phillip dolls. You're stuck with the Bon Jovi toothpick. You've got to learn to deal with that.
>> No. 378479
>>378476
>I don't see how you expect 5% to become 34%.

Hello what part of being in the national debates don't you get? If Ross Perot hadn't of dropped out and than went back into the race which hurt him, he would be president right now and we won't have NAFTA steal our jobs.

Being in the national debates, gives the candidate a chance to show themselves to millions of Americans and allows them into the national polls.

>Especially given that, if a third party did get 5% of the vote, the debates would be changed to require 10%.

Than we work on getting to 10% or 20% or 30%. And if we eventually become a dictatorship,. which we are headed towards, I'll work to overthrow that.


Yes the system is rigged, very rigged, but still we can vote democratically, and if I do vote I'll vote third party every time. You deal with it.
>> No. 378480
>>378477
Oops, sorry, I forgot--34% wouldn't be enough anyway. They still need 51% of the vote even if it's a third party.
>> No. 378482
>>378479
>Yes the system is rigged, very rigged, but still we can vote democratically, and if I do vote I'll vote third party every time.
Well, whatever. Just get used to the fact that you are actively obstructing your own policies from being implemented, and that you're never really going to have any say in who the president is other than in the form of helping the person who is the most opposed to the value you hold dear to win.
>> No. 378483
>>378480
>They still need 51% of the vote even if it's a third party.

Electoral college doesn't found popular vote. You can win even if you don't get a majority of the vote, which is fucked up but it's our electoral system.
>> No. 378485
>>378483
Wrong. The candidate must win the absolute majority of the votes to win--you cannot win in an election with less than 270 votes in the electoral college. If no candidate has 270 electoral votes, it goes to contingency procedures.
>> No. 378497
>>378439
>Why didn't he give us a single payer healthcare system, and not crap like Obamacare which gives even more power to the insurance companies which is the reason the US has the highest cost of healthcare in the world?

Because if he'd tried to go down that road, we'd be sitting here moaning about how the republicans are voting down a healthcare reform bill for the 37th time in a row, the ACA wouldn't be the law of the land, and the spin would ignore the republicans wrongdoing wholesale. It'd instead be about Obama imposing socialism on everybody.

The ACA lays good groundwork and sets up research to bring into question why shit like surgery costs between 5000 and 100,000 depending on the county your in. It sets up transparency so facts can be acquired where we couldn't get it before. It primes the American people for that conversation they're skeptical of.

Trying to force anything passed the current people working on behalf of corporate American influences wold mean no progress whatsoever. And Obama would still see the rancor for that, because unless an issue is a certain % nondefensible through unambiguous facts, republicans trample democrats in the propaganda game. These bills get woefully compromised because while they're weak medicine tied to unhealthy drugs, they're necessary suppements. But that medicine is adding up, slowly but surely.
>> No. 378498
>>378497
There's also the point that he simply can't force shit like this through. He has zero legislative power, and the Republicans' entire platform is "Don't do anything Obama wants even if you want it to," and the Democrats have allowed the Republicans to get away with making even Senate votes require Republican approval to go through despite them being the minority party in the Senate by not enacting filibuster reform.

Blaming Obama for ACA shenanigans is simply stupid. Blame him for the drone policy, blame him for the way they're treating journalists, blame him for the how the DEA behaves--but legislative stuff you have to blame Congress. And mostly when I say "You have to blame Congress" in 2013, I mean "You have to blame Republicans."
>> No. 378504
File 13694843125.jpg - (13.77KB , 250x190 , 250px-Ronpaul1.jpg )
378504
>>378474
>Yes, he is. he is pretty much a moderate Republican, in an age when there are no moderate Republicans anymore.
Pic related, this guy is more left leaning than Obama.
>> No. 378511
>>378428
it's a figure of speech you knucklehead.

it means i was told i was going to get one thing and then i got another. jesus christ.
>> No. 378512
>>378511
Sorry I'm just really pissed at him.
>> No. 378523
>>378504
He's a conservative libertarian. Obama is a center-left authoritarian.
>> No. 378529
>>378523
Let me ask you this:
You're president. You were elected by a landslide in the popular vote, and through the electoral college. Despite many regions being gerryrigged, you did it. You're up there. You're the boss, the commander in chief. You want to make things change for the better.

You've a corrupt, influential financial sector that has stacked so many duckies in a row, if you try and spank them, suddenly many regions of the US lose their jobs, their houses, their communities, because they've dug their control and roots in deep.

You've a gerrymandered congress that usually tries to avoid making it obvious that local representation has been almost totally compromised. Usually they're more subtle about 'close elections', but with you, they see danger. They've pulled out all the stops. This congress will ensure if their benefactors don't get what they want, you and the actual people you represent will get *nothing* you want. And what they want contradicts what you're trying to do. You try and pass a bill to update something? They'll either add so many pro-business amendments to it that it can't possibly pass without hurting the poor, or they'll filibust it. You're forced to compromise on anything, if only to keep the crying babies at least partly reasonable. You're given the choice between sticking to principles of what should be right, and what right you can manage to slip passed them, or get absolutely nothing done. They will not cooperate on anything they don't want.

You've a population of scared, ignorant people that honestly believe that climate change is at best just the result of the earth being the earth, or the sun heating up, or everything BUT human interaction iinfluenced global warming. They WILL believe rumors that you're the anti-christ and that an armed revolution is necessary if you touch certain topics or /somebody/ gives them the wrong idea. These people will be tacitly involved in the election of corrupt representatives put there by financial and social-religious interests. If you shrunk the deficit faster than anybody was expecting, they won't notice, care or think it's more than propaganda. If you so much as take one vacation, they hate you so much they'll assume 1% of all the deficit is due to your presidential vacations and how many you've taken.

You've a financial sector that is free enough go and do things it wants and hide in certain holes that you, legally, are not allowed to peek in. If you do, or if anyone does, it's a violation of their rights. You could change the laws to allow you to see what they're plotting and where the money goes, but you have to go through the Congress and Senate and their representatives first. Which, we've already established, they won't.

What do you do, and how do you do it? How do you get what you want done?
Whatever you say, I'm pretty sure you'd be less effective at it than Obama.
>> No. 378530
>>378529
meant to reply to >>378512
>> No. 378532
>>378529
Refuse to expand the Patriot Act.
Don't sign the NDAA.
Don't appoint criminals and cronies as part of my administration.
Don't use the IRS to bully my opponents.
Don't use the NSA to bully journalists that report on me.
Don't use executive privilege to destroy evidence of criminal investigations.
Close down prisons which use torture.
Don't sign off on murder of innocent American citizens.
Don't order the commission of acts of war in Mexico, Pakistan, Lybia, Syria, Egypt.....

He did these things without outside pressure, on his own. We know this because no one else could have done it, only the president has this power.

>hide in certain holes that you, legally, are not allowed to peek in
That's pretty funny considering Obama has ILLEGALLY peaked into the financial data of his political enemies.
>> No. 378533
>>378532
btw I'm staying away from all the ways he failed to improve our lives as he promised (healthcare, economy, GW etc) because you could somehow argue the GOP made trouble for him on those points.
I'm just focusing on ways he outright broke the law, shat all over citizens and failed to be a decent public servant, because I know you can't argue the GOP made trouble for him there.
>> No. 378536
>>378532
>That's pretty funny considering Obama has ILLEGALLY peaked into the financial data of his political enemies.
[citation needed]
>> No. 378537
>>378532
Okay, now let me ask you:
What do you think the negative ramifications would be of carrying out those things you want done? Do you think congress would let you do these things?
>> No. 378538
>>378536
Turn on your TV.

>>378537
Don't get what you're trying to say.

Are you saying the congress would get pissed off and impeach Obama if he doesn't use IRS to attack political opponents.

Because that's retarded.
>> No. 378539
>>378538
>Turn on your TV.
You're going to have to be more specific. I have seen nothing on TV that suggests Obama has illegally looked at the financial data of his opponents.
>> No. 378544
>>378538
If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know Obama had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the IRS staff investigating Tea Party groups. It was not used by him to peek at anybody's information. It was not at his request, and they don't answer to Obama, his administration or any further than the IRS itself.
What has been accused by the republicans is that Obama was somehow behind it. They have absolutely no substantiation to the claim. In fact, that's not how it works. But it makes for a good accusation to smear someone with.
>> No. 378554
>>378539
>>378544
So wait you think the president didn't know that the person he appointed to lead the IRS was specifically targeting his opponents? Oh, and also, when Obama was running against Romney, the IRS illegally released Romneys tax info, I suppose that was accidental too. I bet his pen just slipped when he signed the Patriot act too, right?

If you're that gullible I have a bridge I'd like to sell you, just don't ask me where it leads.
>> No. 378557
>>378554
You have no facts and are just casting completely unfounded accusations because it would serve your political agenda so much better of those accusations were true. Do you not understand how silly that is?
>> No. 378593
File 136960475521.gif - (3.88MB , 244x183 , donaldfuck.gif )
378593
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAHGcU3_rfc
>FUCK. EVERYTHING.
>> No. 378622
>>378593
While I'm glad they were caught and sentenced, those fucking monsters should be locked up forever. There's no excuse for that at all.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-02-19/news/28611757_1_worst-judicial-scandals-juvenile-law-center-ciavarella

>As Ciavarella departed, a woman confronted him outside the courthouse, yelling that a jail sentence he imposed was to blame for her son's suicide last year.

Then again, maybe they should just be shot instead.
>> No. 378629
>>378557
>your political agenda
And what exactly do you think that is?
>> No. 378661
>>378629
I hesitate to guess. But if you're ignoring and/or outright making up facts to support a political belief that only works when you do so, there's some sort of agenda at work. Even if the agenda goes no further than irrational hatred.
>> No. 378662
>>378661
> ignoring and/or outright making up facts
Oh geez, are you going to accuse the entire media of doing that too?

The only one ignoring facts here is you.
>> No. 378666
>>378662
"The media" doesn't claim Obama was involved with this. Well, I take that back--for all I know, Fox News might have, and maybe even Rush Limbaugh or his ilk, but no one thinks of those as legitimate sources of news--even dyed-in-the-wool Republicans have been jumping ship on both since the last election. Everyone else has been reporting that this is an IRS scandal that appears to have originated in and gone no further than the department of the IRS it happened in.
>> No. 378671
>>378666
So the IRS decided out of the blue to attack Obamas political enemies? It's a two party system, if one party is attacked it doesn't leave a long list of people with motive. I guess the Lois Lerner also didn't talk to Obama about this at all, she was just crazy. Didn't mention it at all during those hundreds of times both she and her predecessor visited the white house. And then she came out and admitted IRS was doing this with no prompting. Had nothing to do with the IRS inspector general drawing the noose around the whole administration.
Again how naive can you be, do you even know what's going on? I'm wondering who do you think gave IRS the list of keywords, because it didn't originate in the organization.
>> No. 378672
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O2jNy0jvkY
>> No. 378673
Also what about Obama squashing the first amendment and journalists?

Obama administrations has put in prison twice as many whistleblowers as all previous administrations combined. All the while saying "we must enforce consequences for those who break the law and breach their commitment to protect classified information."

Some more of my favorite comedian, a centrist/liberal I wouldn't mind electing to president over Obama any day of the week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykD_B8gcDWE
>> No. 378674
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU-ZvgVnxSE
>> No. 378675
>>378544
>they don't answer to Obama, his administration or any further than the IRS itself.
Uh, that's wrong. The IRS is not an independent organization, they report the the Sec. Treasury who reports directly to Obama, and if Obama thinks (doesn't have to prove it) that the IRS commissioner is doing something hinky he can dismiss him without any reason.

People first started getting suspicious in may 2012 and there was a public hearing, Obama definitely heard about it from Ruemmler then. So he basically lied when he said IRS is independent and he heard about all this "friday".
>> No. 378676
>>378675
>Obama definitely heard about it from Ruemmler then
Can you prove that?
>> No. 378679
>>378676
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2326558/Revealed-Obama-administration-knew-investigation-claims-IRS-harassing-tea-party-groups-June-2012-ouste
d-head-agency-insists-illegal.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1nOyaYkX5s
>> No. 378682
>>378679
Why is this alarming?

It's a right-wing political party backed and funded by the Koch brothers to further a political agenda friendly to their business. It literally sprouted up overnight, gathering a large following of a lot of people who, while not technically bad people, didn't necessarily understand what they were signing up for. It was the political equivalent of a botnet, and I'm not surprised that the IRS were investigating that it was, in fact, all legal. Most political parties flounder precisely due to lack of cash in America. That this one was not really a democratically elected party but rather a kind of subversive capitalistocracy is kind of suspect and disturbing. That they were investigated during election season is not surprising; they were operating during election season. And frankly, this was the least of the tea parties' problems.
>> No. 378683
Yeah I don't understand the concern, I wouldn't be shocked at all if the Tea Party was engaging in illegal tax bullshit, why wouldn't they be investigated?
>> No. 378686
>>378683
Actually, subsequent information suggests that such groups do regularly cheat on the tax code, and that applying extra scrutiny to them is entirely sensible in light of that.
>> No. 378698
>>378686
>>378683
>>378682
So only right wing groups deserve extra scrutiny? Jesus, you people are scary.

That's some hardcore crimestop.
>> No. 378715
>>378698
>So only right wing groups deserve extra scrutiny?

There is something wrong with your ability to read and comprehend words. I'm not making an argument for any side here, but reread their posts. That's not at all what's being said.
>> No. 378716
IRS was targeting people politically under Douglas Shulman since at least '10, with Sarah Hall Ingraham doing the dirty work, we know this to be true now. And no it wasn't because the groups were high risk either, we have letters which prove the harassment was nonsensical.

Some tea party fellows got suspicious when, upon trying to raise support for the tea party movement prior to the 2012 elections, they received harassing legal letters from the IRS and their applications were denied. These tea party groups managed to make enough of a ruckus for a hearing to be launched.

During this hearing Douglas Shulman said they weren't targeting people politically. At the same time, IRS had an internal investigation led by Holly Paz which concluded they did have political targets following a 'list' in Lois Lerners office of tax exemption. Essentially Shulman lied, or told a mistruth if you want to be political about it.
Such an investigation has to be kicked up to the secretary of treasury, so Geithner knew (a man we all remember I'm sure). Even so, IRS managed to fool the house into dropping the inquiry prior to the 2012 elections, by having Holly Paz sit in on every interview with IRS officials and the House basically browbeating them into silence. That's kind of like a mob boss being present at a police interrogation of one of his cronies, so not exactly ethical.
Knowing where it was all likely heading, Shulman resigns his post in late 2012.

Fast forward to 2013, in January Geithner retires after receiving a letter from the inspector genera of the treasuryl J. Russel who hilariously had sex with Michelle Obama at some point, unrelated fact but fun to know saying he's launching a probe into tax targeting.
April 16, parts of the white house staff learns of the probe and what the possible conclusion could be (scandal). April 22nd, Kathryn Ruemmler is publicly told that the probe will reveal mischief, no doubt about it. She promptly tells the White House Chief of Staff and he informs the rest of the administration. Now, Ruemmler, McDonough and the rest of the Obama administration have a duty to tell the president, so he probably knew as the Chief Counsels main job is to tell him about every such legal issue that comes up.
Also there is some indication she knew about the hearing beforehand, since she had private 1 on 1 meetings with Shulman during the time he was testifying. It's hard to believe she never asked him what he was testifying about.

The high inquisitor inspector general Russel George formed a new hearing basically like the one from 2012, but now with evidence that IRS was screwing up and that everyone knew except the House. Withholding relevant and material evidence or information from lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States. Shulman was recalled and sweated bullets, being painted as a liar, safe to say he'll never have a career outside of McDonalds again. During this hearing Shulman revealed the existence of a target "list" of political enemies, which did not originate in the IRS but from outside. The IG is now tracking to see from whence this mysterious list came and whether or not Obama knew.

Despite the President receiving letters from political groups alleging harassment since 2010 and despite appointing Sarah Hall as head of healthcare reform during this scandal, the administration is currently trying to play it off as Obama not knowing about it before the rest of us. As his entire administration and the organization of IRS engaging in a conspiracy to keep the president in the dark for many years. But that's basically a borderline criminal act on the part of his entire administration, failing to inform the president, and paints Barrack Obama as unfit to lead his administration let alone a country. The administration is also playing it the same way in the Benghazi and the AP attacks scandals, the official stance is that -The President did not know at the time, and only found out about these cases through news broadcasts- a stance that tacitly admits the president is unfit for the office and that no one should ever have voted for him in the first place. As president he is responsible for his subordinates, such as the IRS commissioner or the white house chief of staff, the buck stops there. So it's hard to see what they hope to accomplish by playing dumb.

Boehner says "It's pretty inconceivable to me that the president wouldn't know. I'm just putting myself in his shoes. I deal with my senior staff every day. And if the White House had known about this, which now it appears they've known about it for about a year, it's hard to imagine it wouldn't have come up in some conversation."

Now, knowing Obama has... misspoken a few times, used executive power to withhold information in the Fast and Furious case, and also knowing where this IRS investigation might lead, I'll leave you with a quote from the impeachment order of Ronald Reagan:
Making or causing to be made false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States. Withholding relevant and material evidence or information from lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States. He has, acting personally and through his subordinates and agents, endeavored to obtain from the Internal Revenue Service, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, confidential information contained in income tax returns for purposes not authorized by law, and to cause, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, income tax audits or other income tax investigation to be initiated or conducted in a discriminatory manner.
>> No. 378717
>>378716
Ugh I shouldn't type without my morning coffee, quite a few errors.
>> No. 378726
>>378716
I think your summary probably makes a few logical leaps, errs on the side of narrative and fills some unknown gaps with a very particular interpretation of events in mind. I can't prove it, but ultimately I don't need to. It still sounds exactly like the silliness they tried to pull with Solyndra.
>> No. 378759
>>378698
when only right wing groups are really doing illegal things and then turning around and crying wolf when the government actually tries to do its' job and calls them out on it?

It's more terrifying to me that a couple of multi-billionaires set up a Frankenstein political party to prey on decent simple people and then we still treat them like they're any sort of legitimate in any news media. They aren't. They're the Republican parties' attempt to force splinter a group and create a true double-headed dragon.

That party should've collapsed the instant it became public knowledge that they were bought and paid for rather than a legitimate political movement. This doesn't look to me like Obama making a move to cripple the Republicans, this looks like the IRS doing their damn jobs, which is so far the biggest complaint that seems to crop up about this administration.

Which is funny, because all the things Obama does that Democrats hate are all the things that Republicans would love. They shit all over his home policies and anything he tries to do, but we can't talk about the horrible shit he's doing because that's exactly what a Republican president would do. Even the article you linked admits that it's only Conservatives throwing up these concerns. The rest of us are concerned the Conservatives are actually going to turn into the 1984 Big Brother government except with ignorance and Jesus.

I'd really like a look at those emails from the IRS. I'd really like to see for myself whether it was a case of "harassment" or if it was a case of "doing their damn jobs and asking conservatives questions they don't feel comfortable answering". Because all too often it's that second one.
>> No. 378763
>>378716
tldr boo hoo my poor billionaire christian psycho friends god their tax scams uncovered
>> No. 378824
>>378763
>>378759
>hurr durr i know better than the inspector general because i read thinkprogress

http://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2013reports/201310053fr.pdf
>> No. 378837
>>378759

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/28/18563008-irs-higher-ups-requested-info-on-conservative-groups-letters-show?lite

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2013/05/14/irs-released-confidential-info-on-conservative-groups-to-propublica/



Whatever your objections to the Tea Party/GOP's views, objectives, or backers, is it not a massive abuse to politicize the agency that awards tax status and enforces tax law?

You accuse them of violating the law: what law? How are they violating it? They're applying for 501(c)(4) status. If you disagree with the whole political campaign financing mess that Citizens United created, ok, but unfortunately that's the law. If you think they're violating the law by being partisan, then the IRS should be even-handed of it's application of the law, and deny ALL partisan groups tax-exempt status, not JUST ones with conservative names. Instead, it not only deliberately delayed their approval until after the election, it asked prying and abusive questions (you have a book club? Send a list of all the books and write a book report on each one. You pray for people? Are they politicians? What exactly did you ask for in your prayers?), leaked private information about the members of these groups to liberal organizations, and was so blindly partisan that all it took was a tea party group changing its name to sound like a progressive group to get rubber-stamped!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/05/14/irs-tea-party-progressive-groups/2158831/

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/conservative-activist-green-name-gets-irs-stamp-approval-193457897.html

http://www.salon.com/2013/05/15/irs_approved_liberal_groups_while_tea_party_applications_languished/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2013/05/14/irs-released-confidential-info-on-conservative-groups-to-propublica/

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/05/irs-asks-for-reading-list-tea-party-group-sends-constitution/

http://www.npr.org/2013/05/15/184040236/irs-inquiries-crossed-the-line-tea-party-groups-say

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/05/17/the_irs_asked_a_pro_life_group_to_explain_its_prayers_outside_planned_parenthood.html

It doesn't matter if it's Tea Party people, Progressive, Socialist, full-on Marxist, or Neo-Nazi; if they meet the criteria for exemption, they should get it. If their deserving exemption is denied solely for the purpose of hindering their political participation, that is a violation of their first amendment rights! That it's happening to a group you don't like by an administration you do like should be all the more reason to be demand full disclosure and an independent investigation; the rights most easily trampled are those of the people you like the least, and the ones most likely to get away with it are the people you like!

And don't tell me this didn't go all the way to the top. The president must always be held responsible for the wrongdoings of the executive branch on principle; that's why we have a unitary executive, and that's why Harry Truman said "the buck stops here". If ignorant of the targeting, Obama is grossly negligent. If involved, or, like Nixon with Watergate, not involved, but aware and tacitly approving, he's at the very least knowingly culpable of accessory to and conspiracy to commit numerous crimes.

I lean towards Nixonian "didn't plan, didn't order, but knew it was going on, allowed it to continue, and when found out, makes efforts to cover up", because it's implausible to suggest that he had no knowledge of this. He's a Chicago politician, for Chrissakes, not some innocent lamb! He knows how to play the game and how to play dirty! And can't tell me this issue wasn't at least alluded to during the 118 times commissioner of the IRS Douglas Schulman visited the White House 2010 and 2011! Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if this strategy didn't come out of one of those meetings!

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/052813-657927-irs-heads-118-white-house-visits-suspicious.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-former-irs-official-shulman-passes-wont-take-responsibility/2013/05/22/d0b949ce-c329-11e2-914f-a7a
ba60512a7_story.html

This scandal isn't going away. Lerner screwed it up major by making factual assertions AND THEN pleading the Fifth. She could be held in contempt, depending on whether it's pursued and a court weighs in on the matter.
>> No. 378840
>>378759
Yes but there were lists of political targets, which came from outside IRS, telling the IRS to bully these people.

Would you feel the same way if Mitt Romney was elected and did the same thing to liberal orgs just so he could have a second term?
>> No. 378886
>>378824
>hurr durr I throw out insults to people making valid points and also don't read the pdfs I post.

This looks like Managerial incompetence, not directed hatred. "Teaparty", "Patriot" and "9/12" were listed as a markers of "political organizations", but tell me, how many words can you come up with that are readily and easily attributable to liberal organizations? "Political Organizations" were meant to be funneled to a specialist team, and looking out for these phrases was meant to help simplify that process. It says in the report that maybe 44 political group requests out of 2051 minimal info groups were not correctly identified; 141 out of 2459 for groups requiring more info. 91 out of 298 identified political group requests had no readily identifiable political leanings. Which means the process funneling the requests to the specialist group was bad to begin with.

However this team was incompetent, lying to everyone outside their unit, and when one of their bosses told them to get away from keyword standards that were unfairly targeting conservative political organizations, they switched back without informing anyone. Their track record seems to indicate that this sort of hearing would've occurred sooner or later regardless of how they decided to segment different applications. The funny thing is that this report reads like a dossier on a Republican political party; bad management, lazy employees, general incompetence and nobody who really knows anything knew what the fuck was going on.

The idea that the Obama administration directed any of this is laughable. There's better ways to make tax requests go away than just hand it to a bunch of lazy idiots and whether a firestorm when it turns out said idiots are lazy. And it's wonderfully to hear Republicans jump up and try say the Dead Horse is doing dirt. Y'know, far too late for it to matter, but, good for them. Harp on about how we need to Oust the Negro for the slightest issue, and pay no mind to the fact that all the mouth-breathing sycophants the party dredges up from Alaska, or Mormon Colonies in Mexico, are just mouth pieces for a select group of wealthy business people trying to manufacture a political climate where they control economic policy for personal gain.

I didn't actually say the Teaparty violated any laws. I said I wouldn't be surprised, because when your political party is the sole vision of 2 of the most wealthy individuals on the entire fucking planet who just decide "hey, let's make a political party!" and then try to keep their names away from anything associated with the party, it's fucking shady.

I am actually disappointed that this isn't a botched politically driven inquiry into special interest groups funded by shy millionaires. No, the height of the depravity are the "unnecessary questions" sent by the IRS when they needed more info:

>Provide the following information for the income
you received and raised for the years from
inception to the present. Also, provide the same
information for the income you expect to
receive and raise for
2012, 2013,
and 2014.
a.
Donations, contributions, and
grant income for each year,
which includes the following
information:
1.
The names of the donors, contributors, a
nd grantors. If the donor, contributor, or
grantor has run or will run for a public
office, identify the office. If not, please
confirm by answering this question “No.”

2.
The amounts of each of the donations, contri
butions, and grants and the dates you
received them.

3.
How did you use these donations, contributi
ons, and grants? Provide the details.
If you did not receive or do not expect to receive any donation, contribution, and grant income,
please confirm by answering “None r
eceived” and/or “None expected.”




Clearly, these are questions that no organization responsible for processing Taxes should ever have to know.
>> No. 378888
File 136989638090.gif - (426.45KB , 245x245 , 136093098887.gif )
378888
>>378840
Please produce these "lists", because according to this PDF from the Treasury Inspector General, the only "lists" used were selected internal to the IRS and were not actually in line with Managerial direction to use different criteria. "Tea Party", "Patriot", and "9/12" are the only terms explicitly referred to by the document as well.

>>378837
>thumbing through some of these
>"Please explain how Prayer is Tax Deductible"
>my fucking sides
>> No. 378914
> how many words can you come up with that are readily and easily attributable to liberal organizations?
Progressive, liberal, healthcare, climate, environment, change, homosexual, democrat, LGBT, women, feminism, immigration, welfare, social service, peace. And these are just off the top of my head.

Imagine if every organization with these keywords was investigated and denied status prior to the 2012 elections. Still think Obama would have won? Still think it's "OK" for this to happen?

Because now that we have the fucking precedent, you bet your sweet candy ass the next REPUBLICAN president will do it.

Expect double terms from every party from now on, you corrupt morons.

>>378888
>my fucking sides
Yeah discrimination is hilarious. We should do it against <insert race/religion/creed> next, because fuck those people.

No one will ever use this against us because there are no bad people in politics.
>> No. 378923
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/27/us/politics/nonprofit-applicants-chafing-at-irs-tested-political-limits.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0&gwh=6B9728D4670CF9E
A46B1F3E6B7271961

When CVFC, a conservative veterans’ group in California, applied for tax-exempt status with the Internal Revenue Service, its biggest expenditure that year was several thousand dollars in radio ads backing a Republican candidate for Congress.

The Wetumpka Tea Party, from Alabama, sponsored training for a get-out-the-vote initiative dedicated to the “defeat of President Barack Obama” while the I.R.S. was weighing its application.

And the head of the Ohio Liberty Coalition, whose application languished with the I.R.S. for more than two years, sent out e-mails to members about Mitt Romney campaign events and organized members to distribute Mr. Romney’s presidential campaign literature.

Representatives of these organizations have cried foul in recent weeks about their treatment by the I.R.S., saying they were among dozens of conservative groups unfairly targeted by the agency, harassed with inappropriate questionnaires and put off for months or years as the agency delayed decisions on their applications.

But a close examination of these groups and others reveals an array of election activities that tax experts and former I.R.S. officials said would provide a legitimate basis for flagging them for closer review.

“Money is not the only thing that matters,” said Donald B. Tobin, a former lawyer with the Justice Department’s tax division who is a law professor at Ohio State University. “While some of the I.R.S. questions may have been overbroad, you can look at some of these groups and understand why these questions were being asked.”

The stakes are high for both the I.R.S. and lawmakers in Congress, whose election fortunes next year will hinge in no small part on a flood of political spending by such advocacy groups. They are often favored by strategists and donors not for the tax benefits — they typically do not have significant income subject to tax — but because they do not have to reveal their donors, allowing them to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into elections without disclosing where the money came from.

The I.R.S. is already separately reviewing roughly 300 tax-exempt groups that may have engaged in improper campaign activity in past years, according to agency planning documents. Some election lawyers said they believed a wave of lawsuits against the I.R.S. and intensifying Congressional criticism of its handling of applications were intended in part to derail those audits, giving political nonprofit organizations a freer hand during the 2014 campaign.

After the tax agency was denounced in recent weeks by President Obama, lawmakers and critics for what they described as improper scrutiny of at least 100 groups seeking I.R.S. recognition, The New York Times examined more than a dozen of the organizations, most of them organized as 501(c)(4) “social welfare” groups under the tax code, or in some cases as 501(c)(3) charities. None ran major election advertising campaigns, according to the Campaign Media Analysis Group, the main activity of a small number of big-spending tax-exempt groups that emerged as major players in the 2010 and 2012 elections.

But some organized volunteers, distributed pamphlets and held rallies leading up to the 2010 elections or the 2012 presidential election, as conservatives fought to turn out Mr. Obama.

A report issued this month by the Treasury Department’s inspector general, J. Russell George, found that inappropriate criteria, including groups’ policy positions, were used to flag some cases and that specialists in the I.R.S. office in Cincinnati, which reviews all tax-exemption requests, sometimes asked questions that were irrelevant to the application process.

And agency officials have acknowledged that specialists inappropriately used keywords like “Tea Party” and “Patriots” in searching through applications.

But some former I.R.S. officials disputed several of Mr. George’s conclusions, including his assertion that it was inappropriate to ask groups about their donors, or whether their leaders had plans to run for public office. While unusual, the former officials said, such questions are not prohibited if relevant to an application under consideration.

“The I.G. was as careless with terminology as the Cincinnati office was,” said Marcus S. Owens, who headed the I.R.S.’s exempt organizations division until 2000. “Half of those questions have been found to be germane in court decisions.”

>> No. 378924
>>378914
Yes, yes, poor, innocent, victimless Tea Party.
>> No. 378925
Political speech is the most important type of speech protected by the First Amendment. In scrutinizing restrictions on such speech, courts are more suspicious of restrictions on such speech than on artistic, personal, or any other kind of speech, because it is the type of unfettered communication most apposite to the functioning of a representative democracy.

And, sadly, money is speech, or at least, essential for it. Technology has leveled the playing field--anyone can be a journalist now with a smartphone with a camera, voice recorder, and internet, and publish directly to their blog or social media page without going through an editor--but if you want lots of people to hear your idea, you still need to buy billboards and airtime, still need to print flyers, pamphlets, and bumper stickers, and still need to train and transport door-to-door advocates for your cause. If there is a means of a group of individuals getting tax-exemption for their group, that provision in the law enables more speech, which is always, in theory at least, a good thing.

The issue of campaign financing reform is not what's at hand in this discussion. Yes, Citizens United opened the floodgates, and yes, our system is full of undisclosed and untraceable donations and massive spending by a few plutocrats which gives, at the very least, an overwhelming appearance of undue influence. I would love to see a system of publicly-financed elections, or at least a hard cap and stringent reporting on individual donations, but that's not the issue. The issue is a supposedly neutral agency abusing its discretion for political purposes.

If partisan groups do not qualify for 501(c)4 status, NO partisan groups should have been given that status; and if partisan groups can be given that status, then all groups meeting the requirements for that classification should have been given that status regardless of political alignment. Legislative and case history on the 501(c)(4) category is sparse, but the IRS has ruled, since the 1950's, that such groups can engage in political activism and lobbying. The idea is that these groups are "promoting the social welfare", and of course that often involves political advocacy on issues they believe helpful or harmful to the public welfare. They cannot count as "furthering the social welfare" campaigning for, or against candidates (Treasury Regulations, Subchapter A, Sec. 1.501(c)(4)-1(a)(2)), but they can do so; their doing so is just subject to a tax ("An exempt IRC 501(c)(4) organization may intervene in political campaigns as long as its primary activity is the promotion of social welfare. IRC 501(c)(4) organizations are subject to the tax imposed by IRC 527 on any expenditure for a political activity that comes within the meaning of IRC 527(e)(2). See Rev. Rul. 81–95, 1981–1 C.B. 332"; http://www.irs.gov/irm/part7/irm_07-025-004.html#d0e332).

Some of the groups, as per >>378923, clearly were pushing the limits of, if not violating, the law, and those in violation should not have been given exemption. But not all the targeted and delayed/denied groups were, while clearly political groups favorable to the party in charge were given a pass (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/05/14/irs-tea-party-progressive-groups/2158831/; http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-16/politics/39310148_1_tax-exempt-status-foundation-application).

The stalling and favoritism is not the entirety of the scandal. The ridiculous, prying questions are part of it, as is the leaking of private information (http://www.propublica.org/article/irs-office-that-targeted-tea-party-also-disclosed-confidential-docs; http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2013/05/14/irs-released-confidential-info-on-conservative-groups-to-propublica/). Then there's the targeting of Romney donors. Combined with admissions by the IRS that those groups were targeted, the firing of the head of the IRS, the frequency of the ex-IRS head to the White House during/after the 2010 midterms, there's just so much more there that hasn't been uncovered.

I'm done with partisan politics. I don't like Obama, but he's not a Muslim/commie Manchurian candidate. He's just another crook like Bush, a smug asshole who bought into his own promotional materials and wants a "legacy" but doesn't have the moral courage or zeal to create a genuine one. He's a constitutional law professor with no respect for the constitution or the rule of law. He, like every president we've had since Carter, Reagan included, should be impeached or asked to resign, because a public shaming is the closest we can get to holding rulers accountable for their crimes. he'd still get his retirement pay and book deals and speaking engagements and presidential library, even when he, like Bush Jr. and Reagan, deserves jail time at the very least for the extrajudicial execution of American citizens, including a minor, but an impeachment or resignation to avoid one would still mean that he was held accountable, to some degree, for his misdeeds and the misdeeds he knowingly or negligently allowed to occur. And even that is too much to ask for it seems, in a world where everyone on both sides of the aisle are either crazy, corrupt, incompetent, or some combination of the three.
>> No. 378929
* Benghazi - The State Department agreed to be a front for a CIA operation. It went bad. The CIA put together talking points of information, then (before the State Department even asked) decided to remove information from them until they were a load of watered-down fluff. The people complaining the loudest had previously voted to cut funding to embassy security. Nobody is talking about this being a CIA operation if they can help it.

* IRS - Upon further investigation, the Tea Party groups that were flagged appear to groups that legitimately should have gotten flagged due to the degree to which they were engaging in political campaigning for Conservative candidates.
>> No. 378931
>>378914
>Imagine if every organization with these keywords was investigated and denied status prior to the 2012 elections.
Actually, more liberal organizations that applied for this status were denied than conservative organizations, so we don't have to imagine that hard.
>> No. 378932
>>378931
That's bullshit, unless you mean more as a total not a percentage.
>> No. 378937
Did you guys know that 501(c)(4) organizations legally can't be political organizations? They can engage in political activity, but at least 51% of their activity has to be social welfare.

An organization filing as a 501(c)(4) whose name implies that it is political in nature rather than charitable in nature absolutely, always deserves extra scrutiny and additional proof that it is not cheating the tax system, because the name of an organization is indicative of its intentions. If the Salvation Army decides to donate money to a political campaign and files as a charitable organization that's fine--they are obviously a charity. If the "Tea Party Patriots of Freedom Marching Against Gun Control" file as a social welfare organization, you're damned right they need to prove the are one first.
>> No. 378938
>>378937
But anonymous! Checking that is both an infringement of their rights, and overstepping their authority as people that search out non-profit apolitical organization fraud! Clearly they were overstepping their bounds when they singled out what clearly is not simply astroturf trying to legally shell and shelter corporate investment money around into political functions and questionably ambiguous programs they shouldn't be engaged in. Clearly the IRS had no right to scrutinize people who filed for tax exemption. And so what if perhaps there were more patterns of tea party abuse than the others they examined.. any is still proof that they must have SINGLED OUT tea partiers and republicans!

Surely, with their track record of lying, truth stretching, fact embelishing (or outright fabricating), echo chambering non-issues and narrating them as Scandals, this must go up to the HIGHEST ESCHELONS of the government! You know what they say, a fish rots from the head down. S'what my pappy told me, mmhmm! Obama did it.
I like the guy! Really! But he really should be impeached or resign. Surely his goose is cooked. And if it isn't he's a dirty dirty corrupt monster.
>> No. 378944
>>378937
>>378938
see >>378914
>> No. 378945
>>378944
That post posits that I would find it wrong to target liberal groups based on politicized names for their organizations, and that is simply wrong. All groups with names that make them sound like political organizations should be treated with skepticism if they want tax-exempt status.

But the fact of the matter is, this sort of organization is much more popular among conservative groups because their nature favors a small, inordinately rich group of people increasing their power over election results by virtue of their money alone. So they have more organizations that work this way, but having more organizations like this also means they're going to have more cheaters, and more cheaters means increased scrutiny.

This is the consequence of using money to buy elections. They are lucky the price is so low. In a functional democracy, they wouldn't be able to get tax-exempt status for anti-democratic institutions like Super PACs at all.
>> No. 378946
>>378944
See

>>378923

Still noticing complete silence on the little fact that, upon further investigation, those Tea Party groups that got flagged had a tendency to be doing shit that should have gotten them flagged.
>> No. 378949
>>378946
Are we reading the same article? Read it again dude, it plainly says that the scrutiny was retarded.

>agency officials have acknowledged that specialists inappropriately used keywords like “Tea Party” and “Patriots” in searching through applications.
You really shouldn't think you know better than the people who work for the IRS about what's appropriate or not. The guy who was in charge of IRS said it was wrong, the inspector general said it was wrong, the fucking president said it was wrong.

But you think it's right.

>>378945
>That post posits that I would find it wrong to target liberal groups based on politicized names for their organizations, and that is simply wrong. All groups with names that make them sound like political organizations should be treated with skepticism if they want tax-exempt status.
Fucking why? Political organizations are supposed to get tax free status so IRS can't be used as a tool for political control... as in exactly what's going wrong with IRS now.

Only 501(c)(3) are banned from politics, all others can have political connections, are supposed to have political connections if only for patronage and lobbying. What's the point of an aid group that can't influence politics to help a group of people that needs aid?

501(c)(4) are especially tied into politics, lobbying, and so on, and you can't demand that they release their donor information. Again that information is protected so it can't be misused by a current administration to attack opponents.
>> No. 378957
>>378949
No, 501(c)(4)'s are allowed to have political actions in addition to their primary actions, which has to be social welfare. The government does not subsidize the politics of rich people, even though rich people think the government should subsidize everything they do. It just has a designation of tax-exempt social welfare organization that they can't disallow from doing some political spending because it would interfere with the abilities of religious-ly affiliated social welfare organizations (again, like the Salvation Army) from following the political needs of their religion when it overlaps with the stated social welfare goals of the group. Tea Party Organizations have co-opted this designation to make the government subsidize their political campaigns, and have convinced themselves that they are entitled to do so, but they are just abusing a system that was set up for people who are actually trying to help people.
>> No. 378966
>>378957
Their primary actions are still civic and related to politics, like gatherings, information spreading and so on.

>The government does not subsidize the politics of rich people
What are you talking about? Actually I don't think you know what you're talking about either.

I'm going to go with the better political judgement of congress, the president and the IRS on this.
>> No. 378988
>In its latest effort to protect followers of Islam in the U.S. the Obama Justice Department warns against using social media to spread information considered inflammatory against Muslims, threatening that it could constitute a violation of civil rights.

>The area’s top federal prosecutor, Bill Killian, will address a topic that most Americans are likely unfamiliar with, even those well versed on the Constitution; that federal civil rights laws can actually be violated by those who post inflammatory documents aimed at Muslims on social media. “This is an educational effort with civil rights laws as they play into freedom of religion and exercising freedom of religion,” Killian says in the local news story. “This is also to inform the public what federal laws are in effect and what the consequences are.”

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2013/05/doj-social-media-posts-trashing-muslims-may-violate-civil-rights/
>> No. 378989
>>378988
This spin on reality. It amuses me.
>> No. 378991
>>378988
Inciting violence or crimes has never been protected by the first amendment. This isn't even a supreme court interpretation thing, it's mentioned right there in the text of the amendment.
>> No. 378992
>>378991
If this was about inciting violence against religions, no one would care. JEws probably get more threats than Muslims anyway, even after 9/11.

This is about suppressing criticism specifically against Islam. Remember this?
>The president has even ordered the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) to shift its mission from space exploration to Muslim diplomacy
>> No. 378994
>>378992
Or maybe it's about actually enforcing anti-discrimination policies and being spun as censorship by the state, because Farmer Bill is being told he isn't allowed to call all muslims terrorists anymore.
>> No. 378996
>>378992
>Remember this?
>The president has even ordered the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) to shift its mission from space exploration to Muslim diplomacy

It's such an insane and surreal statement that I took it as the deranged mutterings of an anti-government nutjob rather than an actual statement of fact, and am awaiting an actual news story about it before just accepting it from some clearly sensationalist website that I've never heard of.
>> No. 378998
>>378996
He did tap NASA to encourage the spread of math and science and get more predominntly Muslim nations on board with the international space initiative.
But he also tapped NASA to encourage more STEM in children and focus on international cooperation of all kinds. So you're correct, this is very much rearranging the facts for a certain narrative.

Judicialwatch.com is also so hilariously slanted it's like I'm looking at a steeple.
>> No. 379006
>>378998
See, now that's believable. NASA is still focusing on Space (and math and science, which are the fields the Space initiative is built on), and trying to court a more diverse collection of contributors is in no way outrageous. In a very real way, our knowledge of space is largely based on Middle Eastern sources (as they invented navigation by the stars, algebra, trigonometry and most of our constellation names come from the Babylonians as well).
>> No. 379011
>>378996
He said it years ago, during his first term. Have you been under a rock.
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/talktojazeera/2010/07/201071122234471970.html

>>378994
>actually enforcing anti-discrimination policies
Then it should have addressed all religions instead of just the one, and without using language that can be interpreted as quashing criticism instead of threats.

>being spun as censorship by the state
lold
>> No. 379012
>>379011
>He said it years ago, during his first term. Have you been under a rock.
You're going to need to adjust to the fact that sane people don't obsess over the "outrages" that convince conspiracy theorists that the government is out to get them. Especially when they're huge non-issues like "NASA is reaching out to more muslims." You could fill an ocean with the fucks I and most of the rest of the country don't give about that. It is not at all the same thing as the comment you made that implied NASA was no longer focused on Space.
>> No. 379013
>>379011
It's called being real. A mealy-mouthed effete school principal might wave a finger and say, "now now boys, no fighting" [In general]. It doesn't address the fact that the current hot topic now is the cottage industry conveying Muslims as a violent, dangerous and scheming invasive ethnic group determined on erecting mosques, Sharia and what have you on glorious American soil. So pointing out, "No calling Achmed a sand nigger or rolling frozen pigs head into the mosque to express yourself artfully" is not rolling out a red carpet or fluffing the sultan's posterior.
>> No. 379016
>sane people don't obsess over the "outrages"
"Sane" people live in a "world" where "society" functions around things called "precedents" some of which are "centuries" "old", if anyone makes a bad "precedent" now it could "affect" "us" badly in the "future" if we ever "elect" a very "corrupt" leader.

>>379013
That's a strawman and you know it.
>> No. 379017
>>379016
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/second-charge-filed-for-mosque-defiler-in-maine
>> No. 379037
>>379017
>2006
Here's something a bit more recent for you
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/15/boston-marathon-bombing-photos_n_3087332.html
>> No. 379041
Moderate Turks are finally standing up to Islamist Erdrogan.

Watch TV!
>> No. 379060
>>379037
Which has absolutely no relation to what's being discussed, which is telling Farmer Bill that, yes indeed, it is hatespeak and slander and liable if you lump all muslims in with suicide bombers or terror bombers. That's the whole point.
Freedom of religion does not mean you get to pretend somebody is waging war on your holiday because they don't wish you a merry Christmas, while you relabel a culture center into a "megamosque" as if its existence is an insult to the WTC.
>> No. 379074
>hatespeak
doubleplusgood

the first amendment makes slander and libel laws almost impossible to bring to court, in usa it has to be:
1. proven a statement of fact, not a joke or opinion
2. has to be provably false as well
3. has to cause harm to the plaintiff, either through finances or otherwise
4. only applies to self published defamation, doesnt apply to anything on tv or internet because then providers would have to face charges

enjoy
>> No. 379075
>>379074

Those make things difficult, but not impossible — which is kinda the point when you consider the First Amendment.

We have to have the freedom to say outrageous things, think outrageous things, so that those who follow us can do the same. Even when those things offend and disgust us, we must defend such speech because the First Amendment requires such protection (‘the price of freedom is eternal vigilance’).

Now, if you want an example of a legally sustainable case of defamation:

http://gawker.com/viral-facebook-post-alleges-man-is-a-wanted-rapist-but-509724902
>> No. 379078
>>379041
That's great. I'm one for freedom to be a Muslim and practice religion within society, but due to my nonreligious upbringing I've never been too fond of the Islamist movement. While it's OK for individuals in the government to have religious beliefs that might influence the direction of their policy, religion should never be a core component of the government itself if the nation isn't monoreligious (which it almost never is, and certainly isn't in the case of many Middle Eastern countries).
>> No. 379086
>>379074
>the first amendment makes slander and libel laws almost impossible to bring to court, in usa it has to be:
False. You're not wrong about there being a lot of requirements to prove it's defamation, but you are wrong if you think it's anywhere close to impossible. Defamation suits get brought and won all the time in the United States, because as the First Amendment notes, defamation is not protected speech.

All those requirements you gave are just the definition of defamation in America. Of course you have to prove them--that's how laws work.
>> No. 379087
>>379086
>Of course you have to prove them
Exactly. Now try to prove that me saying something anti-religion on a website isn't a joke, an opinion, or false. If I say your god isn't real, how are you going to prove in court I'm wrong? If I say something insulting, how will you prove it's not a bad joke?

This >>378988 is bs, not only is it ineffective but it makes no sense to come out and say things like this.
>> No. 379088
>>378949
>Are we reading the same article? Read it again dude, it plainly says that the scrutiny was retarded.

No, it doesn't. It says
>agency officials have acknowledged that specialists inappropriately used keywords like “Tea Party” and “Patriots” in searching through applications.

The agency specialists started profiling. That's bad. They shouldn't do that.

But the fact remains, looking at the groups that got flagged, a lot of them WERE doing things that should have gotten them flagged. What does that mean? It means after going through several Tea Party applications and noticing that the damn things kept getting flagged for needing more investigation, people got fucking lazy and started saying "if it says Tea Party, we'll probably end up needing to take a closer look, so just flag it the moment you see it's a Tea Party application". It means this was profiling as the result of incompetent people deciding to take a shortcut that they absolutely should not have taken. Not a massive conspiracy to Get Those Tea Party People For Disagreeing going all the way up to The President.
>> No. 379097
>>379088
>the slowest of pokes
>> No. 379106
>>379087
Saying "Your god is not real" is not defamation. Saying "My neighbor is a terrorist" if he's not a terrorist, is defamation. This isn't as difficult as you're making it out to be.
>> No. 379113
File 13702252768.jpg - (126.75KB , 298x400 , come-at-me-bro.jpg )
379113
>>379106
Terrorist detected
>> No. 379118
>>379097
>You didn't point out I'm full of shit immediately

That's not much of a rebuttal.
>> No. 379404
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/opinion/granderson-michelle-obama-heckler/index.html

(CNN) – I'm a big fan of Michelle Obama's, but if she's going to be hitting the circuit to raise money for Democrats, she has to be prepared for heckling. Especially heckling from gay rights activists like the one who interrupted her speech Tuesday night.

"Lesbian looking for federal equality before I die." That's how Ellen Sturtz, the woman identified as the heckler, identified herself.

Apparently the first lady's husband said something about signing an executive order banning federal contractors from discriminating based on sexual orientation and gender identity.
LZ Granderson
LZ Granderson

Sturtz had the nerve to ask the president to keep his word.

And it's not like signing an order will rock Washington's world – as The Washington Post pointed out, of the "employees of federal contractors that are in the Fortune 1000, 92% are already protected by a company-wide sexual orientation nondiscrimination policy, and 58% are already protected by a gender identity nondiscrimination policy."

Still President Barack Obama made a promise: It's not unreasonable to expect him to keep it.

Especially when one out of every 16 of his "bundlers" – those who organize super fund-raisers – during the 2012 election was openly gay. The Washington Post says of his top 2012 bundlers, one is six was gay. And that more than 75% of voters who identified as lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender voted for him. And yet the changes Obama has wrought since he was first elected often feel as if they're being handed out like doggie treats, and not championed with the same urgency that Democrats showed on the campaign trail.

Heckling the first lady wasn't fair because she isn't responsible for policy. But the incident sent a message to those who are responsible: We are people, not pawns.
Michelle Obama wades into gun debate
First lady: Victim was just like me

But this is what happens when a bloc of voters – be it the LGBT community, Latinos, women – surrenders its voting power to a political party as opposed to a principle. Not all Republicans are anti-gay, not all Democrats are pro, and it's the rare politician who will do something "bold" that isn't politically expedient.

In Illinois, the House of Representatives, controlled 71-47 by Democrats, chose not to vote on same-sex marriage legislation, with some members saying they needed to talk it over with their constituents. A rationale that doesn't hold much water because the Senate passed the bill 34-21 in February. State Sen. Jason Barickman, a Republican, voted in support of same-sex marriage after adding a religious liberty amendment to the bill.

Many activists are pointing fingers at the Illinois House Legislative Black Caucus for not playing ball. This seems ironic, considering the first item under the subject line "What Are They Fighting for?" is civil equality.

State Rep. Ken Dunkin, chairman of the Black Caucus, did not return my calls. But he did tell the Windy City Times that it was unfair to pin the bill's failure on the caucus, adding, "This is not the Black Caucus' burden."

Because lord knows black folks have nothing to do with gay folks, right Ken?

Gregory Angelo, the Log Cabin Republicans' national executive director, told me that "if there's any lesson to learn from this is that Democrats can't pass marriage equality on their own. They need Republican support."

And the LGBT community would be wise to remember that. The Republican Party may house the most vocal, and sometimes offensive, opponents – but that doesn't mean that all Democrats are proponents or courageous enough to fight. The Senate Republicans in Rhode Island became the first legislative caucus in the country, of either party, to vote unanimously for same-sex marriage.

The truth is the Illinois Democrats promised to bring the bill to a vote and they didn't. It's likely they are stalling to see what the U.S. Supreme Court decides in the two same-sex marriage cases it heard this spring. Decisions are expected later this month. The Illinois House has until August 31 to vote.

This is a little political cover that may be smart but flies in the face of the party's national platform: "We oppose discriminatory federal and state constitutional amendments and other attempts to deny equal protection of the laws to committed same-sex couples who seek the same respect and responsibilities as other married couples."

But Democrats have trampled on that promise before, and fairly recently.

In 2009, Sen. Chuck Schumer of New York said he supported marriage for same-sex couples. But he recently opposed an amendment to the immigration reform bill that would have included same-sex couples because he thought it would make Republicans kill the bill. The Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee didn't even want to vote on it. Basically Schumer wants same-sex couples to get married in his home state – but if you're binational, he'll let the government deport your spouse.

So the LGBT community gets tossed under the bus – again – as if our families are not worth voting for. As if we don't deserve a public record of which Democrat is for us and which is against us.

Heckling Mrs. Obama wasn't fair to her.

But taking the LGBT community for granted isn't fair to us either.
>> No. 379408
File 13705088886.png - (185.80KB , 550x310 , facepalm.png )
379408
>>379404
Of all the groups deserving of civil rights and liberties, of all the struggles and the lengths of time taken for groups to get what is due to them, I think the gay rights movement have to be the biggest, most successful group of impatient, ungrateful and entitled babies I have ever seen.
My fucking god. Stop everything, everybody. If every bill doesn't cater and include homosexual rights, we're clearly not trying hard enough. Unless the republicans are filibustering EVERYTHING and wasting EVERY bill, we simply are not trying. Because if the gays can't marry, fuck getting legislation of any stripe passed. Gays and gay rights should get priority over anything else, in any bill.

The LGBT community is going to get theirs. They have the younger generation, the older generation is dying off. They can afford to wait for the beast to die before demanding everybody else stop what they're doing and endanger everybody else' interests, goals and how long they've waited for any progress in their own issues, just to cater to theirs. In a time when the republicans have thrown off all pretension of adhering to any etiquette or fairness and just keeps trying to repeal affordable healthcare near forty times, not even BOTHERING to act like it's even anywhere in the middle, the LGBT groups just will not be happy until LGBT rights are amended to every bill they want and will see failure to bet the farm on their civil rights as hesitation or patronization by the Obama administration.

I feel like I'm seeing a fat spoiled child scream for icecream in the middle of a hostage situation. Now is not the fucking time, understand it's not all about you.
>> No. 379410
>>379408
I remember a lot of prominent voices within the gay community whining that Obama didn't deserve to get reelected because he wasn't doing enough for the gay community and that repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell was barely-their lip service to their cause, and that he should have legalized gay marriage and other such things by then. As if the President can do it by himself, no matter how pro gay he was. And as if it was going to be that easy, even if there was overwhelming support for it in Congress. Not to mention none of the other candidates would have lifted a finger to help them.
>> No. 379413
>>379408
You know, while I get where you're coming from, you need to remember that telling someone to "be patient" about this stuff is a little crass when:

- Right this very second there are lesbian couples in Texas being told they can't live together or one of them will lose custody of her children due to a morals clause in her divorce settlement--which in a straight couple, would be easily resolved by getting marries, but which Texas law will not recognize for a gay couple
- People are being barred from being in hospital rooms with lovers they've been with for decades because the family successfully gets the lover banned despite them being married in all but name
- People are being kicked out of their homes because their partners die and the family (who have often disowned the deceased partner) claim "next of kin" rights and evict the widow.

So I mean....this isn't just an issue of "Hey gays, just wait twenty years and you can call yourselves what you want." There are people living right now, today, who are suffering some pretty fucked up shit that anyone with any empathy will admit is fucked up, and they have absolutely no legal recourse because their oppression is supported by law. It might not be genocide, but it's still pretty fucking heinous.
>> No. 379414
>>379408
>>379413
Incidentally, it's sort of....off to refer to someone as "entitled" for expecting rights that they are legitimately, unquestionably entitled to. Like is it entitled of me to expect a trial by jury if I get accused of a crime? Am I acting entitled when I choose my own religion instead of letting the government choose one for me?
>> No. 379416
>>379413
Yes, and that's very sad, but being pissed off at the people doing their work for them is unproductive and wrong. The only possible way they could do better is if the congress and senate weren't skewed by the tea party. If it was just a matter of the democrats just sitting on their hands, I'd sympathize. But it isn't. We have a republican congress that is not afraid to filibust anything that isn't what the religious, socio-advantaged culture want. Anything they don't want. This means you need an enormous amount of political capital just to grease the wheels on a bi-partisan basis, and they'll filibust at the drop of a hat with no shame at all.

>>379414
The undue entitlement isn't in the "I deserve rights and to be treated like a human being." The undue entitlement kicks in when they expect an unreasonable amount of catering to their interests to wedge into every bill. Knowing full well it's wishful thinking to think adding them would do more than kill any sort of progressive legislation we can get passed at all.

It's just simply not the time. We're already running full bore and making astounding, stable progress in such a short time. More boldness would just endanger what we're doing and impact everyone else.
>> No. 379417
>>379408
>Of all the groups deserving of civil rights and liberties, of all the struggles and the lengths of time taken for groups to get what is due to them, I think the gay rights movement have to be the biggest, most successful group of impatient, ungrateful and entitled babies I have ever seen.
You should stay the hell away from the Irish then.
>> No. 379422
>>379413

And that's just in the US. Imagine how it must feel to live as a gay person in a country where you know that the government can and will toss you in jail for a decade or two just because you come out of the closet. (Uganda still has a bill floating around in the legislative ether that would turn living as an out gay person into a death penalty offense.)
>> No. 379423
>>379404
>It's not unreasonable to expect him to keep it.
lol yeah it is, we're talking about obama.

>>379408
i. am. obamabot. please. insert. false. promises.
>> No. 379444
File 137054144833.png - (1.03MB , 1248x676 , Obama big brother.png )
379444
So much for “I reject the view that the president may do whatever he deems necessary to protect national security,""my Administration is committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in Government," and "“I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/06/us/us-secretly-collecting-logs-of-business-calls.html?hp&_r=1&

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130606/DA6O4MG03.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/05/nsas-verizon-spying-order-specifically-targeted-americans-not-foreigners/

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/06/05/dept-of-homeland-security-laptops-phones-can-be-searched-based-on-hunches/

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-spying-verizon-analysis/65963/

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer

http://www.nationaljournal.com/tech/how-outraged-should-you-be-about-the-nsa-grabbing-your-phone-logs-20130606

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57587316/judge-google-must-give-user-info-to-fbi/

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/03/justice/supreme-court-dna-tests

RIP Fourth Amendment.
>> No. 379445
File 137054182261.gif - (188.77KB , 774x652 , SLPLab.gif )
379445
>>379444
Didn't you hear slowpoke? Obama can do whatever he wants because when the president does it, it isn't illegal.
>> No. 379457
>>379408
>group of impatient, ungrateful and entitled babies I have ever seen.

I can legally get fired from my job for being gay under state law, I can not marry or obtain a civil union. And yet for some reason I'm impatient. They said the same thing about blacks in the 1950s that they should go slow with the whole civil rights stuff.

Obama could do more for the LGBT community. He said he would sign an executive order banning federal contractors from discriminating based on sexual orientation and gender identity which he hasn't done. He hasn't said that gay marriage is a civil right and an issue that should be left to the federal government and not states. He could push harder for the passage for the ENDA that federally bans employment discrimination and housing discrimination for LGBTs. And he could stop funding anti-gay regimes like Saudi Arabia. But he hasn't, because Obama doesn't really care about gays, he just uses them for votes and fundraising like young people, women, blacks, Latinos, etc. Obama cares about Obama.

>>379444
But Obama's a Democrat guies and I thought we had to support Democrats no matter what they do!

God I'm getting so sick of this "Democrat/Republican" tribal party loyalty.
>> No. 379459
>>379457
>But Obama's a Democrat guies and I thought we had to support Democrats no matter what they do!
>God I'm getting so sick of this "Democrat/Republican" tribal party loyalty.
But again, as we've discussed before, your only alternative is to buy into a delusional belief that third parties stand a chance at the national stage, and split the voting power of those who agree with you among a bunch of third party candidates, while teapartiers and the like continue to stay unified and put all of their power into candidates who are undeniably worse than the ones in the other party.

There's a reason "Divide and conquer" is one of the most recited of all military tactics--it is because it is unquestionably effective. And you are helping conservatives to do that. The more effective tactic if you really want to help progressive and liberal causes is to try and fix the problems within the party in power, rather than running off on your own. Unity is strength.
>> No. 379463
>>379457
I'm disgusted with you, where's your party loyalty!?
>> No. 379464
>>379459
>you are helping conservatives
No, you are.

I'm loyal to the same principles I was loyal to 15 years ago. You're loyal to a party that keeps changing its principles to turn more like its own enemy.

That is illogical.
>> No. 379465
>>379457
>Obama cares about Obama.
Politicians are selfish, breaking news.
>> No. 379466
>>379464
-_- I have no loyalty to the democrats. But I do understand basic mathematics. If the liberal vote is spread across seventeen different candidates and the conservative vote is all targeted at one, the conservatives will win every single time. No matter how right one of those seventeen candidates is about whatever issue you consider your higher priority. I would have loved to have voted for Rocky Anderson last election. I agreed with every single point he made. And I was not a big fan of Barrack Obama. But unlike you, I look at these things with perspective--I do not know a single other person who has even heard of Rocky Anderson. Even the other independents I've talked to don't know about him. Whereas I know about twenty who believe every word that has ever been broadcast on Fox News. Me voting for Rocky Anderson would have had the same effect as me voting for Mickey Mouse. Or for that matter, the same effect as me voting for Mitt Romney.
>> No. 379467
>>379459
By that logic, I'm doing just as much good for social causes by voting Republican.
>> No. 379468
>>379466
The split between independent and democrat is why my state currently has a tea bagging worthless republican governor right now.

However, it's a strange case. The vote was split around 34, 33, 32 among the republican, independent and democrat, respectively. More people would have voted for the independent instead of automatically voting ahead of schedule, if they didn't think the independent didn't have a chance. We had more democrats vote independent than republicans vote independent, but not by much.

This probably wouldn't work for other states. We elected an independent to senate, too.
>> No. 379471
>>379468
And that's at the State level, where third parties actually do stand a chance.
>> No. 379473
>>379466
If you rely only on mathemathics your vote will be applied against what you believe in, and will help conservatives in the long run through a ratchet system. That's why the 60s/70s are so important, it's the first time in history that liberals stopped voting for conservative politicians.

Better to let the republicans win temporarily, and win in the long run, than to fight for the temporary and lose the entire game.
>> No. 379474
>>379473
>Better to let the republicans win temporarily, and win in the long run, than to fight for the temporary and lose the entire game.
All right, but....in what way is the Republican victory temporary in this situation? How does a party that gets 1/17th of 51% of the vote ever beat the party that gets 49% of the vote? I don't understand how you think your odds improve in the long run by falling prey to factionalism.
>> No. 379478
>>379459
Every day we learn more scandals of Obama and the Demo-Republicrats taking away our civil liberties. Wake up America.

It doesn't matter who you vote for when both parties vote the same way and are taking away our civil liberties. You better start believing in police states, your living in one.

>Reports: U.S. spy agencies mined Internet data

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/06/politics/nsa-internet-mining/index.html

You can't vote out the police state. We need our own Arab Spring and I'm seriously considering revolution at this point.
>> No. 379480
File 137057358413.jpg - (208.98KB , 733x1139 , john-berkey-spaceship-illustration-06.jpg )
379480
>>379474
Because eventually, after many losses, the democratic party HAS to realize their constituents disagree, and thus change their policies. We retain a major party, which can recover to become a competitor and win.

Right now, when democratic party acts like GOP, and you STILL vote for them, that sends them the message that they're doing the right thing. Eventually after years of this positive reinforcement the democratic party will become the GOP. And we'll lose a major party, the loss is ultimate and final.

You're being fooled by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
>> No. 379481
>>379478
>It doesn't matter who you vote for when both parties vote the same way and are taking away our civil liberties. You better start believing in police states, your living in one.
They don't vote the same way. That's just something libertarians say so they can convince people to dismantle "the government," which is code for "the social safety net."

In the Seanate:
-Democrats voted unanimously in favor of the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell. 8 Republicans and 2 Independents joined them, opposed to 31 Republicans voting against it.

On the vote to form a National Endowment for the Oceans to promote the welfare of the nation's oceans, lakes, and waterways, democrats voted unanimously in favor of it, joined by 13 republicans. 32 republicans were against.

In the vote to rehaul and modernize FDA safety regulations, D:56/R:15/I:2 in favor versus R:25 against.

In the vote to require photo-ID to be allowed to vote and set up a fund to enforce it: D:1/R:43 in favor, D:50/R:2/I:2 opposed.

On the assault weapons ban: D:36/R:1/I:1 in favor, D:15/R:44/I:1 opposed.

On establishing a fund to protect women's access to health care, including primary, and preventative health care, family planning and birth control: D:56/R:3/I:2 in favor, and D:1/R:42 opposed.

And these are just issues that looked relatively interesting to me on http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/113/. I didn't look at Cabinet Appointments or Judicial nominees. Now obviously, there are issues where Republicans and Democrats are in agreement, and they are often things that are irritating. But it is either outright ignorant or extraordinarily disingenuous to suggest the two parties are the same. There are extremely clear narratives on both sides about which priorities are important to which.
>> No. 379482
>>379480
>Because eventually, after many losses, the democratic party HAS to realize their constituents disagree, and thus change their policies. We retain a major party, which can recover to become a competitor and win.
>Right now, when democratic party acts like GOP, and you STILL vote for them, that sends them the message that they're doing the right thing. Eventually after years of this positive reinforcement the democratic party will become the GOP. And we'll lose a major party, the loss is ultimate and final.

So then you're not actually suggesting we vote for third parties because we want them to win, or that we eliminate the two party system, you're suggesting we throw the match in favor of Republicans for a while in the hopes the Democrats will get better. And hope that all those factions we formed in order to punish the democrats all decide to re-join the Democrats at the same time we do.
>> No. 379483
>>379481
You don't seem to realize how politics work, the votes are planned and predetermined, nobody actually votes their conscience on the fly. For example, if GOP and Dems both want something to pass and Dems have the clear majority, then GOP is free to vote against and pretend they're the voice of reason while still getting what they want.
>> No. 379484
>>379482
Essentially, except the "rejoin" doesn't happen accidentally, and doesn't have to be at once. It's called re-establishing voter confidence, it's how the conservative party in Canada won.
>> No. 379486
>>379484
But you're missing the point here: the reason you're suggesting not to vote democrat despite being in favor of their platform is because they only have about 60% of the same priorities you do, rather than 100%. The third party you join has 100% the same priorities you do. The democrats will never have 100% the same priorities you do, ever, ever, nor will any other party that has a chance of getting 51% of the vote. It is just a logical impossibility for a group consisting of more than 150 million people to have identical priorities.

If I childishly insist on nothing less than 100% agreement with my priorities (which, incidentally, is the tactic the Republicans are taking in Congress right now), why would I ever rejoin a party that has a chance of winning at the national stage, when we've already established it's impossible to get a consensus on a scale that large?
>> No. 379488
>>379483
If the parties are so good at rigging the votes the way they want them that voting records are meaningless, what makes you think your candidate isn't part of the same conspiracy?
>> No. 379491
>>379481
FUCKING THANK YOU

This isn't a false dichotemy. The Republican Stubborn refusal to have any discussion on ANY ideas like this has been hamstringing the country as whole. Every "bad" thing that the Dems are doing is likely because the Republicans have been throwing a tantrum and trying to convince everyone it's their opponent's fault.

Nobody wants to hear that we maybe need this. Nobody wants to rational discussion about this. No, we're back to "evict the black", and again, none of this looks like it's enough to impeach him. WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, is the President doing his job. Again. And taking steps to protect against a portion of the country who are actively talking armed revolt when they do not fully understand what they are revolting against, or what needs to happen in the future. But damnit, they're mad and they won't take this anymore! Whatever that means.

Every time you talk about trying to break the system instead of fixing it, you're playing into Republican hands. They're the ones who want it broken, they're the ones who have wanted it broken for years, they're the ones who have taken every step to break it, and we are all suffering for it now.

Every time you parrot off "Obama's fault! Obama's fault!", you're missing the bigger picture. You're missing that a lot of this is occurring because there are forces outside Obama working on this. If the Surveillance State Government is what you're really worried about, then why blame Obama at every turn? He's the fall guy and he's gonna be out in another 3 years. Then we'll get another puppet. Hopefully a Democratic puppet, because however bad the Democrats are, the Republicans are worse, and they maintain that image every time they dredge up some mental-house reject to run for President.

You want to actually make a difference? Stop talking like the President is the ONLY ONE responsible for all of this. He is far and away not, and where he is it's mostly for inheriting a crapsack. AND YET, with every single one of these revelations, we hear an eerily similar chant.

>>379464
That is actually not illogical at all. Being illogical is adhering to the same principles that forward hatred, ignorance and aggression over actually trying to understand problems and solve them. Especially if those principles are more than 2000 years old and have not seen any significant revision except by old white guys in funny hats.
>> No. 379492
>>379481
>They don't vote the same way. That's just something libertarians say so they can convince people to dismantle "the government," which is code for "the social safety net."

Look up the Patriot Act vote of 2001 and re-authentication in 2005 and 2011 in the senate, or the National Defense Authorization act of 2012 and 2013, or Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 2008 and re-authentiction of 2012.

The Democratic controlled Congress in 2009-2010 didn't close Gitmo bay. The Democratic controlled Congress didn't reinstate Glass–Steagall Act. The Democratic controlled Congress continued to fund the Iraq War after 2006 after campaigning on ending it.

Face it Democrats and Republicans are two factions of the same party that is enslaving the USA.

>-Democrats voted unanimously in favor of the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell. 8 Republicans and 2 Independents joined them, opposed to 31 Republicans voting against it.

Ok I'll give you that. They are slightly different on social issues, expect things like the War on Drugs, death penalty, etc.
>> No. 379493
>>379492
gee I wonder what prevented them from doing all that stuff
>> No. 379494
>>379491
>If the Surveillance State Government is what you're really worried about, then why blame Obama at every turn?

Because OBAMA SIGNED INTO LAW National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 and 2013 which allows the US government to detain any US citizen without trail indefinitely. Obama also signed a re-authentication of the Patriot Act and Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008 which is directly why the government is looking into my Verizon cell phone calls and emails.

You know I used to defend Obama, until he signed the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012. That was the final straw. I'm sick and tired of my civil liberties being taken away.

You know why Obama became a constitutional law professor? So he could work around the US Constitution. Obama knows all to well he signs unconstitutional shit into law but he doesn't care.
>> No. 379495
>>379494
>National Defense Contract signed into law every year
>mad because last straw was one that came around like clockwork

You know they don't actually have your calls, just the call times, right?

Personally I don't really give a fuck. My information flies through so many companies and so much shit worse than the government. But, I don't really do anything that I think will get me arrested, even with all my information logged.

And really? There's been some shit going down in that sector. You may not like all the Anonymous Court Cases that have resulted in Guilty Pleas over the past year, but guess what? It's been the wild fucking west online for years now. And that has allowed some serious criminal enterprise to grow.

And we need to talk about those criminal enterprises and we need to talk about what it will mean to police them. Because they are springing up Here, not elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I think we need to redress a lot of laws and have some really serious dialogue about the state of our court system and how we rehabilitate people. To me though? This looks like the President making moves that he has to.
>> No. 379496
>>379481
>They don't vote the same way. That's just something libertarians say so they can convince people to dismantle "the government," which is code for "the social safety net."

Gee, conspiracy theorist much? Not all libertarians are anarchocapitalists, and I'd rather you not lump us in with the Repubs. If anything, a basic social safety net is one of the few concessions I'm willing to give to the federal government. All the Big Brother shit can go to hell.
>> No. 379502
>>379495
Hey stupid he didn't need to SIGN THE NDAA 2012! He could have done:

1. Veto it and demand a new NDAA that removes the indefinite detain without trail.

No he didn't because Obama wants NDAA into law. That's why they defend it in federal court. Did you know that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedges_v._Obama

>Personally I don't really give a fuck.

Well they goose stepped for Hitler in Germany. You are one of the idiots, the useful idiots.

You are one of Obama's useful idiots who has become so brainwashed that you think illegal wiretaps of phones and emails is preferably ok.

Obama should impeached for this. Nixon wiretapped Watergate and resigned, while Obama wiretapped the whole country and he's still president. The FISA 2008 Act wasn't even meant to be used for US citizens.

The government has no right to listen in to our phone calls or read our emails. We have banks that are so large and powerful that they can actually avoid criminal charges. We can all be taken definitely forever without trail and taken to Gitmo. USA has been constantly at war since 9/11 This is some 1984 shit right here.

And for all we know the US government might be planning a false flag operations to invade Syria like they did in Iraq and Vietnam.

>>379496
>All the Big Brother shit can go to hell.

The brainwashed sheeple think we should be living in Hitler's regime. They will sacrifice all of their liberties in the name of security. Guess what? The very same state that protects you can take all away like they did with Anwar al-Awlaki's son in a drone strike or Bradley manning who is on trail for his life. God help us all.
>> No. 379504
>>379502
Well, you haven't been shot yet, so I wouldn't worry too much.

Damn shame, that.
>> No. 379506
>>379502
Gotta ask, man, what do you think the end game is here? Because mostly you've just gone on about how this is horrible and your ideas for armed revolt are arguably worse.

I mean, what do you think the plan is here?
>> No. 379508
>>379506
>Gotta ask, man, what do you think the end game is here?

Read some of the books created by this guy named Chris Hedges. He's a brilliant man, former war correspondent of the New York Times, now works for Nation and Occupy Wall-street.

Chris Hedges says in his books the USA has been taken over in a corporate coup d'etat and the goal of the corporate state is to turn our society into a neo-feudalist society where the rich have so much wealth and power and the rest of us are just barely getting by. There are several sacrifice zones in the USA where that are literally obliterated by the neo-liberal corporate policies like in Camden, New Jersey and the southern West Virginia.

The goal is the keep the bankers in power and rich, keep the military industrial complex going with endless wars, continue to erode our civil liberties in order to stop a revolt of the American people against the corporate state. Americans since 1970s have seen their wages stagnate, their income decline dramatically, jobs shipped overseas, and none of the political parties have done anything to stop this.

>Because mostly you've just gone on about how this is horrible and your ideas for armed revolt are arguably worse.

Armed revolt is exactly what the corporate state wants so they can declare all political opposition to the Obama regime illegal and send us to concentration camps. We shouldn't resort to armed revolt until they start killing and detain the average American. What we need to do is civil disobedience. Go to the Occupy movement and go to any of the big banks on Wallstreet and protest outside. This is all we have left.
>> No. 379509
>>379508
>This is all we have left.
Well, that and also you could vote for candidates who can win and call or write to them once they're elected instead of bitching about things on the internet where they don't go. But yeah, keep living out your oppression fantasy. I'm sure that'll accomplish shit, too.
>> No. 379510
>>379509
>also you could vote for candidates

You have to be retarded to think you can vote against the corporate state.

The two party state=one party state. I did vote and I voted third party as a sign of protest against the state.

You can't get elected to Congress if you aren't bought and controlled by corporate lobbyist. Why do you think the General Electric pays no taxes and it also controls MSNBC? Because General Electric and Obama made a deal and MSNBC is pro-Obama 24/7 propaganda.

>But yeah, keep living out your oppression fantasy. I'm sure that'll accomplish shit, too.

You are a delusional Obamabot who probably bought all of the "hope and change" bullshit in 2008.
>> No. 379512
>>379508
Is this the face of the next gigantic conspiracy theory that's being blamed on Obama? Really? Is this the direction that the "armed revolution" nonsense is coming from now?
I'd expect this goofiness from the kinds of people that invest in gold, claim it's the federal government's fault that private enterprise can't make everything the state has to do a cheap, efficient operation, and wonk about "one world currency," but you're exhibiting signs of silliness that lead me to conclude you simply can't be what you claim you are. And it certainly goes back to what I said about the gay rights affianados being like the fat delusional kid screaming for ice cream in the middle of a hostage standoff. And has apparently concluded since nobody is stopping and going to get them their treat, both parties must hate them and be equally wrong.

The wiretapping shit is nothing new, and it was inherited from Bush. It was largely something presented by the congress and senate. It's not like Obama's cabinet went out of its way to make this a thing voluntarily, it's just another one of those cogs in the ridiculously legacy style machine that was operating when he took office. And it's yet another one of those things he'll probably try and get removed, in time. Much the way he's gearing up to try and close Gitmo again.
And surprise surprise, the republicans recently worked on legislation to make closing Gitmo even more difficult to impossible in the contents of budget bills. I wonder if they would set up barriers and create anchors on wiretapping the public to force Obama to take responsibilty for it.

Because that has been the narrative that they've been pushing since day 1. That the big uppity negro is a threat, is no different from them, is a dangerous drone, is a sophisticated laughing mastermind, and the only sane and rational answer is armed revolution or voting against democratic interests in order to "show them who's boss."

Fuck the idea the parties are the same, outside select members who are bought and paid for by corporate interests. That's "we're both equally guilty of it therefore we're both equally innocent" nonsense.
Fuck the idea you can bench yourself and not conflict for the seat of control, and somehow show your representatives "who's boss." It doesn't matter if you're morally right if your opposition has complete and total power to either filibust you into nonexistence or vote you out in a supermajority. You're actively working against those interests you claim to be supporting.
>> No. 379513
>>379512
>And has apparently concluded since nobody is stopping and going to get them their treat, both parties must hate them and be equally wrong.

Again you didn't read all of my posts. I said on SOCIAL ISSUES Democrats are better than Republicans, but when it comes to economics, civil liberties, foreign policy they are the same fucking party. When do you hear the Democrats criticizing Israel's illegal occupation of the west bank and gaza? Never.

>And surprise surprise, the republicans recently worked on legislation to make closing Gitmo even more difficult

you do kno what Democrats controlled Congress in 2009-2010 and didn't close Gitmo? Obama also signed legislation keeping Gimto open.

>The wiretapping shit is nothing new, and it was inherited from Bush.

>wiretapping under Bush = bad
>wiretapping under Obama = good

WTF? Let's time to get something straight Obama and Bush are both war criminals and puppets of the corporate state

>Fuck the idea the parties are the same, outside select members who are bought and paid for by corporate interests.

All of the are corporate bought, it's just some are more bought than others. All of the legislation in congress is written by corporations. That's why General Electric and Google don't pay taxes. Why don't they pay their fair share in over a trillion dollars in taxes?
>> No. 379514
>>379513
>All of the legislation in congress is written by corporations.
Like Elizabeth Warren's "Let's prosecute the banks as criminals when they commit criminal fraud" or "Let's lend students tuition money at the same rate we lend to the big banks" bills? Or the various calls from democrats to raise the minimum wage to $10 or in some cases even $23? Which corporations paid for those bills?
>> No. 379515
>>379513
No. They aren't the same party. But they do bear the same dogmas of the country the other has to work with. Which, indeed, is a corporate oligarchy. The main difference right now is there's more progressive and liberal groups working to try and wrestle the system out of their hands, and more conservatives that want to either busy themselves looking for aliens while the men operate behind the curtain, or are actively flagging in the destruction. We don't need liberals crowing about armed revolution or trying to shoot themselves in the feet out of spite for the whole system. That's not just unhelpful, it's counterproductive, and you know it. Many of these things you are suggesting sound like the sort of desceptive nonsense the Kochs have force fed into the Tea Party. It would be a sad, sad day if enough ignorant individuals in Occupy wound up taking this bait and adopting these philosophies, enough to break up what consistency the movement has free of corporate interference.
You do know he tried, right? He didn't have a massive supermajority at any time. This goes back to that "Political capital" thing I spoke of above. There are consequences among voters for doing and voting on certain things. Right now the democrats operate in a theater where anything they do is scrutinized as harrowing in the end of creation, and even operators and mechanisms that are grandfathered in as structure, that Obama only has to let continue to exist without expending political capital/effort to remove, are blamed on him and his cabinet as though they implemented them personally. Quite simply he had more important things to invest his capital into. Things that would make bigger differences for people and have a higher probability of success, and also be harder to spin as the things bringing on the doom of tomorrow.

The wiretapping is bad. Under anyone. However, you have to understand the position of the administration. They are working against the complete and absolute control of the corporate state. They're working and trying to get an organism healthy again that is for all intents and purposes, riddled with cancer and sabotaging itself. They try and take their medicine, parts of the body have a hyperallergic fit and create different problems elsewhere.

This will only change with any real success when more is done to push removing money from politics, redefine corporations as constructs and not entities, to change the way districts are drawn and redrawn and distributed based on population, and only then will we be able to get congressmen and senators that won't just be corporate puppets. But making this happen is going to require pigeon holing congress and the senate so they can't just vote no and destroy it over and over again, an effort as herculean as voting for healthcare reform.
If Obama does nothing else this term, and I suspect this is what the best elements of the left and right are working on a gameplan for, he'll have set up and paved the way for system recovery. But we won't get there at all if warm bodies sit there contemplating firebombing things, or not voting, or even worse, voting for NADER just to SPITE any legitimate or conscientous effort to make things better. There are no saints working in there right now, and there is no one that isn't mired in the sophisticated mess. Being covered in the shit is a prerequisite for working in it. That's just the system as it stands today.
>> No. 379519
Some of you don't need to see this since you already know, it's a good documentary nonetheless.

1 of 3 Public Schools
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1r-r6iLBEI

2 of 3 Minimum Wage, Licensing, and Labor Laws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DS0XXFdyfI

3 of 3 The Welfare System
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqMuLNWL_Qo
>> No. 379527
>>379506
Stop taking leftist strawman trolls seriously.
>> No. 379529
>>379459

If only "helps the other guys" if too few people do it. Enough people voting for a third party isn't them "throwing their votes away", it's getting a third party candidate elected.

Granted, with the bullshit electoral college system, Congress and statewide offices should be the first target for getting (insert party) candidates in office.

>>379495

"Metadata". The numbers you called or were called by, the duration of the phone calls, location information. Do you realize how big a fucking deal that is?

Let me put it this way: The Supreme Court ruled last year that the FBI placing a GPS tracker on a suspected drug dealer's car without a warrant was unconstitutional. By obtaining, without a warrant, your cellphone metadata, which includes your location, the Feds are accessing the same information without a warrant, AND MORE. And unlike the Jones GPS case, you can't even find the tracker on your car when you get it washed/serviced; it's in you pocket! And the National Security Letters that the FBI/CIA/DHS uses to unconstitutionally "subpoena" that data include gag orders that forbid the recipients from even acknowledging that they received them, let alone tell you that your data's been accessed!

>>379515

Don't make excuses. He's a lawyer, a fucking Constitutional Law professor. He should know better than anyone what he's doing is wrong, whether or not it's for the purpose of working against the complete and absolute control of the corporate state" (which it isn't).

>even operators and mechanisms that are grandfathered in as structure, that Obama only has to let continue to exist without expending political capital/effort to remove, are blamed on him and his cabinet as though they implemented them personally.

Except these are things that either he has implemented, or has drastically expanded upon. When you have more raids on legal (under state law) medical marijuana dispensaries, more drone strikes, the AP/Fox/CBS scandals, and more NSLs issued in four years than you had under eight years of Bush, Obama isn't just allowing some bad stuff that existed before him to continue while he focuses on bigger problems, he's making the problems worse! It's been five years, Ram, stop blaming Bush (who was the shittiest president ever before the current one), and hold the guy in office accountable!

As for voting for Nader or Johnson or whoever, people should. It's called voting your conscience rather than voting for the supposed lesser of two evils, and if more people did it, we wouldn't be in this quagmire.

>any legitimate or conscientous effort to make things better

There aren't any.
>> No. 379530
>>379529
>without a warrant

Except, you know, for those warrants they got. The ones given out by the courts.
>> No. 379531
>>379530
Except they didn't.

NSA decided you don't have a "reasonable expectation of privacy", so they don't get warrants for cellphone or internet snooping.
>> No. 379533
>>379529
>The program does not allow the Government to listen in on anyone’s phone calls. The information acquired does not include the content of any communications or the identity of any subscriber. The only type of information acquired under the Court’s order is telephony metadata, such as telephone numbers dialed and length of calls.

>The collection is broad in scope because more narrow collection would limit our ability to screen for and identify terrorism-related communications. Acquiring this information allows us to make connections related to terrorist activities over time. The [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] Court specifically approved this method of collection as lawful, subject to stringent restrictions.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/obama-defends-digital-spying-i-think-weve-struck-the-right-balance/
>> No. 379534
>>379527
>Stop taking leftist strawman trolls seriously.

So I'm a troll because I don't support illegal wiretaps on US citizens and their privacy being given to the US government without their consent?

>No. They aren't the same party. But they do bear the same dogmas of the country the other has to work with. Which, indeed, is a corporate oligarchy.

" In the US, there is basically one party - the business party. It has two factions, called Democrats and Republicans, which are somewhat different but carry out variations on the same policies." - Noam Chomsky

>The wiretapping is bad. Under anyone. However, you have to understand the position of the administration.

If Obama was a Republican would you be saying the same thing?

>They are working against the complete and absolute control of the corporate state.

They ARE working for the corporate state. Don't you get that? Don't you understand that Obama give a shit about the US Constitution and he's pretty much saying "hey look I've taken away all of our civil liberties, but you can trust me with it because I'm not Bush." It makes me want to throw up that liberals have bought it like the dumb sheeple they are.

Did you know that the New York Times said Obama lost all credibility? Did you know that the Huffington Post said Obama and Bush are one in the same?
>> No. 379535
>>379534
>If Obama was a Republican would you be saying the same thing?
See, this shit is what makes you a troll. You treat everyone else like an idiot because they don't buy into the same conspiracy bullshit you do, and anyone who points out that you're not looking at the full story gets called an Obamabot, even if they're not actually saying "Obama is the tits," they're just saying "You know, politics actually has some complexity to it..." "FUCK YOU, OBAMABOT, YOU WOULDN'T SAY THAT IF IT WERE BUSH."
>> No. 379536
>>379533
> does not include the content
There's more to a phone call than the actual communication. In fact, in intelligence terms, the speech is almost useless. Speech is useful in only a few cases, and usually requires people to sift through it.
Metadata is a lot more useful for mass espionage and population control, because a computer can analyze and model it however you want, it's just numbers.

That makes people nervous because the government is effectively treating everyone like a criminal.
>> No. 379537
>>379535
>conspiracy bullshit
nope.tiff

That argument doesn't fly anymore. And admit it, you wouldn't say it if it was Bush.
>> No. 379538
>>379537
I'm not happy about it with Obama, either, asshole. But this is what I'm talking about--you're so fucking obsessed with this "Us vs. Them" mentality that any time someone points out the flaws in your arguments, EVEN WHEN THEY AGREE WITH YOU OTHERWISE, they've been "deluded by Obama." You're so fucking obsessed with your hard on for hating Obama that you don't give a shit about what's true or how the government works. That makes you either a troll or a nutter, and in neither case does it make your opinion worth taking seriously.
>> No. 379541
>>379538
>That makes you either a troll or a nutter,

Yes anyone who doesn't support fascist government take over of our civil liberties is clearly a troll or a nutter. Just like the nice people who worked in the Nazi concentration camps told all of the Jews that they were only getting a shower. We where just following orders they said.

Obama should be impeached outright for this; but he won't. You know why? Because the Democrats and Republicans both support what Obama is doing. When corporations and the state merge together we get fascism. That is the definition.

Look this has nothing do to do with right vs left, conservative vs liberal, etc. this has everything to do with the rule of law vs tyranny. If Obama can pretty much do whatever the fuck he feels like it than what is stopping him from declaring all anti-government protesters illegal? He has already shown to target his political opponents.

>>379535
>You treat everyone else like an idiot because they don't buy into the same conspiracy bullshit you do,

Conspiracy? It's fact. Obama and his gang are stealing our information from websites and listening to our calls and our emails.

The 2008 Obama said he would end this stuff as president, but HE'S FUCKING EXPANDED IT! Obama is worse than Bush.
>> No. 379544
>>379541
Holy shit you actually played the Nazi card, you actually ARE a Tea Party member.
>> No. 379547
>>379544
I've suspected that to be the literal truth for a while now. His attitude and arguments are exactly the sort of thing I would expect from a teabagger trying to bait liberals with concern trolling, all while laughing to himself about what a "master manipulator" he is.
>> No. 379549
The guy has been doing this shit from the start. He was playing as the other side before now.
>> No. 379550
>>379538
>you're
Arguing with at least three different people.
>> No. 379554
>>379547
I'm surprised it's taken this long for other people to pick this up. He was playing incredibly blatant strawman positions with shit like "Repeal the 2nd Amendment". He's got the same level of obnoxious persistence of the ryonafag, except only with left-wing politics instead of misogyny.
>> No. 379557
>>379554
>Repeal the 2nd Amendment
That's actually his serious opinion, I've had an argument with him over it.

You'd be surprised to discover how many young people think the amendments were made to be broken.
>> No. 379558
>>379557
>You'd be surprised to discover how many young people think the amendments were made to be broken.
The amendments were actually made at least in part to prove that the Constitution was a living document that could be changed as the need arises, when it was realized that the initial document didn't really do much to protect the rights of citizens, just defining the "skeleton" of the national government, as it were.

So in a sense, the Amendments were made to be broken, when and if it ever became necessary to do so, assuming the proper channels were followed to make those changes. The Bill of Rights are afforded a position of sanctity in modern American culture, despite the fact that they not only don't cover all Natural Rights and actually do cover a lot of shit that has zero relevance to anyone's life in 2013, like the prohibition on quartering troops--which only made sense as an Amendment before the modern structure of the military was implemented. The modern military requiring citizens to offer their housing for its troops would be complete nonsense even without an amendment preventing it.
>> No. 379561
>>379550
So are you.
>> No. 379562
>>379541
>If Obama can pretty much do whatever the fuck he feels like it than what is stopping him from declaring all anti-government protesters illegal?

HE IS NOT SOLELY DOING THIS. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. THIS NOT AS SIMPLE AS ONE PERSON MAKING THESE ACTS.

Or if it is, let's talk about Karl Rove, man.

You want to talk about this but all you do is scare and intimidate and call everyone crazy. Then you offer no real plan of action. "Civil Disobedience". Doing what? Throwing ourselves under the bus? Oh and your scenario? It's here pal. It's here in part because of your news sources and the paranoia you're fostering on everyone. You're not trying to fix anything, you're breaking things under the auspice that that will somehow solve problems instead of worsen them.

Repealing the 2nd Amendment is one of those Black and White notions that is just in no way reflective of reality. It's cognitively dissonant with the stance you take. You want us to throw off the government but you also want to take away our rights to the most basic defense. And you won't hear it when we tell you that it's fine to keep the guns, we just need to be better about tracking.

We can be better and you're just trying break everything because you don't like how it's been put together.
>> No. 379565
Has everyone lost their fucking minds? Everyone is now saying we need to become a fascist police state in order to "stop terrorism." Does anyone else understand how serious situation this is?

>Bill Maher - Fourth Amendment & Second Amendment 'Obsolete', 6/7/2013 Real Time

Bill Maher - Fourth Amendment …youtube thumb

>Glenn Greenwald Says Their Goal Is To End ALL Privacy!

Glenn Greenwald Says Their Goa…youtube thumb
>> No. 379566
>>379565
>Refuse to engage the above valid criticism
>come down on someone for saying 2nd amendment obsolete when you yourself wouldn't shut the fuck up about the same thing
Okay so yeah you're just a troll after all. Actually you might straight up be Firelord, which is what I've suspected for awhile.
>> No. 379568
>>379562
>HE IS NOT SOLELY DOING THIS
I remember when people bitched at Bush for doing things he didn't even know were happening too. The buck stops with the president.

I remember when people bitched and moaned as Bush signed the Patriot Act. That was basically considered a declaration of dictatorship at the time. Where were those people when Obama extended it well beyond what even Bush had in mind? People bitched when Bush signed NDAA too. Where were they when Obama did the same? Where are the people to complain about Guantanamo bay. When Bush covered up Blackwater acts people bitched and moaned, where were those people when Obama used executive privilege to cover up US government supplying Cartels with weapons??


I want Bush back, because at least people had the spine to criticize him.
>> No. 379569
>Where were those people when Obama extended it well beyond what even Bush had in mind?
He didn't extend it passed what existed already, and it's unlikely he'd have the votes necessary to repeal it. Doing so would also open him up for criticism and spin of being sympathetic to muslim terrorists. Narratively, his opposition is not going to be happy no matter what he does, and use any action or inaction as proof of being a traitor.
>Where are the people to complain about Guantanamo bay.
Complaining about Gitmo and other things the president tried to close but the republicans decided to make harder to impossible to do, without dragging their feet and expecting more tolerance for their crybaby tantrums in return.
>where were those people when Obama used executive privilege to cover up US government supplying Cartels with weapons??
are you talking about Fast and the Furious? 10.0 on the mental gymnastics, but that's not even close to how that went down. Unless you're talking about something else.

You're trying a very backhanded way of saying people aren't criticizing Obama where he deserves to be criticized, and trying to say the reason is because he's black/he's a democrat. Your ultimate goal with this tirade is to put him on the same level with Bush, which would make anyone supporting him a hypocrite. It's simply not the case.
>> No. 379571
>>379569
>votes necessary to repeal it
What? All he had to do was not sign it, no one can put a gun to his head and make him. Doing so would also open him up for criticism? OK so you're saying he traded away our rights because he was afraid of being criticized. Is someone so spineless what you consider to be a good president.

For that matter where were people to say Bush had to sign the patriot act or people would label him a traitor. He had far more reason to sign it so close to 9/11. You're making excuses for Obama, talk about mental gymnastics.

>the reason is because he's black
Did you seriously just play the race card? (√-1)/10
>> No. 379572
>>379571
you can't possibly be so dense that you think the signing off wasn't to everything, not just the spying stuff. It was a gigantic packaged deal, and it was already working through both of Bush's terms as president.
The only reason this shit is being wheeled out at all is to make Obama responsible for Bush's baby, and you know it.
>> No. 379574
>>379572
Stop blaming other people for Obamas failures. The congress rarely agrees with ANY president, their one function is as a check and balance to executive power. Yes he inherited problems, but so did Bush from Clinton, why do you think the recession happened?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act

Obama is president now, and he's responsible for his administrations acts, his own acts, and what happens during his 2 fucking terms. If he can't deal with previous administrations foibles, then he isn't a good president. If he can't deal with criticism, then he isn't a good president. Period.

Baaaaw Bush's baby. Baaaw congress isn't taking direct orders from Obama. Baaww he'd look bad. Baaawww he has no spine. Excuses, all of which make him look even worse.
>> No. 379577
File 137070766294.gif - (52.75KB , 410x352 , bush_deficit_graphic.gif )
379577
>Yes he inherited problems, but so did Bush from Clinton
mo money mo problems, I guess.
>> No. 379581
Ahaha. You people are being dumb right now. The president is never responsible for everything. That's not to say that the president doesn't have any duties or can't be blamed, but come the fuck on. Checks and balances exist for a reason.

>But people blamed Bush!

Err, so? If it was wrong then, it's wrong now. It's not about who blamed who and whose turn it is to play the blame game. This thread is showing why political discourse is such shit. People pick up a side like it's a football team and start shitting on the other side, even over irrelevant shit.
>> No. 379582
>>379577
Read the link provided. Clinton created a false bust thorough deregulating banks, then Bush (and subsequently Obama) had to deal with the fallout.

>>379581
>The president is never responsible for everything.
But he is responsible for many things in the executive branch, for which it's perfectly legitimate to blame him. Please read article 2 of the constitution.
>> No. 379583
File 137071392928.jpg - (49.24KB , 417x840 , 1370713499001.jpg )
379583
Obama, 2007:
>This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.
>That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary.
>This Administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not.

Obama, 2013:
>President Barack Obama on Friday staunchly defended the sweeping U.S. government surveillance of Americans' phone and internet activity, calling it a "modest encroachment" on privacy that was necessary to defend the United States from attack.
>"We're going to have to make some choices as a society. ... There are trade-offs involved."
>> No. 379586
>>379582

From the post you just quoted

>That's not to say that the president doesn't have any duties or can't be blamed

Reading is fun. Next time avoid making the knee jerk response and actually read.
>> No. 379588
>>379586
>, but come the fuck on.
No u.
>> No. 379589
>>379566
>refuse to acknowledge Bush/Obama has turned America into a police state
>hurrr you must be a troll

You know I've actually changed my position on gun control too. This very situation changed my mind.

Wake up. Obama is a puppet of the international bankers who put him in power. He's turning our country into a fascist police state in the name of security. Tell me you brainwashed Obamabots if this illegal and unconstitutional spying on American citizens phones, emails, and internet than why didn't it stop the terrorist bombing in Massachusetts? If PRISM is meant ONLY to stop terrorism than why is it targeting the average American?

We have Mao Zedong in the white house.

(For twelve years you've been asking "Who is John Galt?" This is John Galt speaking. I'm the man who's taken away your victims and thus destroyed your world. You've heard it said that this is an age of moral crisis and that Man's sins are destroying the world. But your chief virtue has been sacrifice, and you've demanded more sacrifices at every disaster. You've sacrificed justice to mercy and happiness to duty. So why should you be afraid of the world around you? Your world is only the product of your sacrifices. While you were dragging the men who made your happiness possible to your sacrificial altars, I beat you to it. I reached them first and told them about the game you were playing and where it would take them. I explained the consequences of your 'brother-love' morality, which they had been too innocently generous to understand. You won't find them now, when you need them more than ever. We're on strike against your creed of unearned rewards and unrewarded duties. If you want to know how I made them quit, I told them exactly what I'm telling you tonight. I taught them the morality of Reason – that it was right to pursue one's own happiness as one's principal goal in life. I don't consider the pleasure of others my goal in life, nor do I consider my pleasure the goal of anyone else's life. I am a trader. I earn what I get in trade for what I produce. I ask for nothing more or nothing less than what I earn. That is justice. I don't force anyone to trade with me; I only trade for mutual benefit. Force is the great evil that has no place in a rational world. One may never force another human to act against his/her judgment. If you deny a man's right to Reason, you must also deny your right to your own judgment. Yet you have allowed your world to be run by means of force, by men who claim that fear and joy are equal incentives, but that fear and force are more practical. You've allowed such men to occupy positions of power in your world by preaching that all men are evil from the moment they're born. When men believe this, they see nothing wrong in acting in any way they please. The name of this absurdity is 'original sin'. That's inmpossible. That which is outside the possibility of choice is also outside the province of morality. To call sin that which is outside man's choice is a mockery of justice. To say that men are born with a free will but with a tendency toward evil is ridiculous. If the tendency is one of choice, it doesn't come at birth. If it is not a tendency of choice, then man's will is not free. And then there's your 'brother-love' morality. Why is it moral to serve others, but not yourself? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but not by you? Why is it immoral to produce something of value and keep it for yourself, when it is moral for others who haven't earned it to accept it? If it's virtuous to give, isn't it then selfish to take? Your acceptance of the code of selflessness has made you fear the man who has a dollar less than you because it makes you feel that that dollar is rightfully his. You hate the man with a dollar more than you because the dollar he's keeping is rightfully yours. Your code has made it impossible to know when to give and when to grab. You know that you can't give away everything and starve yourself. You've forced yourselves to live with undeserved, irrational guilt. Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle. This country wasn't built by men who sought handouts. In its brilliant youth, this country showed the rest of the world what greatness was possible to Man and what happiness is possible on Earth. Then it began apologizing for its greatness and began giving away its wealth, feeling guilty for having produced more than its neighbors. Twelve years ago, I saw what was wrong with the world and where the battle for Life had to be fought. I saw that the enemy was an inverted morality and that my acceptance of that morality was its only power. I was the first of the men who refused to give up the pursuit of his own happiness in order to serve others. To those of you who retain some remnant of dignity and the will to live your lives for yourselves, you have the chance to make the same choice. Examine your values and understand that you must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil. If you've understood what I've said, stop supporting your destroyers. Don't accept their philosophy. Your destroyers hold you by means of your endurance, your generosity, your innocence, and your love. Don't exhaust yourself to help build the kind of world that you see around you now. In the name of the best within you, don't sacrifice the world to those who will take away your happiness for it. The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath: I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.)
>> No. 379593
File 137071889640.gif - (1.20MB , 450x250 , Daenerys-in-1x06-A-Golden-Crown-daenerys-targaryen.gif )
379593
I think MittsJoffery's policies on homosexual activity and welfare are deplorable.

Ron PNed Stark's plans of privatizing the big industries would leave them easy prey for capitalists on Essos, such as the Iron Bank, something Robb Stark would continue.

Bush Stannis has no moral fiber or family values, he puts the disabled in the tallest tower with no accessible ramps. He's not tolerant of any cultures, the lord or light pretty much destroys all other religions and peoples.

Obama Danaerys is the only answer. She's anti-slavery, multicultural enough to have sex with drogo, loves organic food (pic) and is a strong feminist womyn.

So we had no other choice but choose her.
>> No. 379596
>>379589
>lol commienazis XD
Nope, not working anymore friend, you've outed yourself as a cartoon.
>> No. 379598
>>379596
He outed himself as a cartoon, like, the first time he started posting. I can't believe it took some of you this long.
>> No. 379600
I just emailed both my senators about my issues with the NSA and PRISM. it was very easy to do--they have forms right on the web and everything. And while I know it is going to be read by interns rather than the senators themselves, I have been told by interns with politicians that they give a rundown of what they read from constituents every day, and that those things DO matter--moreso than public opinion polls and such. It's one of those "For every one hundred people who feel a certain way, only one will send a letter" thing--actually contacting our politicians might very well make a difference. It's how we stopped SOPA, after all.
>> No. 379602
>those things DO matter
This. The only reason things like Patriot Act passed in the first place is because no one complained properly.
>> No. 379608
>>379596
>you've outed yourself as a cartoon.

You didn't answer this Obamabot:

>Tell me you brainwashed Obamabots if this illegal and unconstitutional spying on American citizens phones, emails, and internet than why didn't it stop the terrorist bombing in Massachusetts? If PRISM is meant ONLY to stop terrorism than why is it targeting the average American?

(The fuck? I fucked up. I fucked up. I fucked up. I fucked up. I fucked up. I fucked up. I fucked up. I'm so sorry. I'm trash.)
>> No. 379609
>>379602
> The only reason things like Patriot Act passed in the first place is because no one complained properly.

> is because no one complained properly.

That's a funny way to spell 9/11.
>> No. 379610
>>379608
I'm not really an Obama supporter (I didn't vote at all last time because I didn't like any of the candidates), you're just very obvious.
>> No. 379612
>>379589
>>379608
ahahaha what?
>> No. 379632
>>379608
Because maybe the average American is at risk of becoming a terrorist?
>> No. 379633
>>379632
That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.

By that logic every average american is at risk of committing a crime therefore we should be monitored everywhere at all times, including every room in your house, toilets etc...

There's no way that power will ever be abused.
>> No. 379639
>>379593
I think Michelle Bachmann is a better analogue for Joffrey to be honest. Mitt seems to me more like Balon.
>> No. 379640
>>379600

Paper letters and phone calls work great too. A bag of angry letters plopped on their desk, "Miracle on 34th Street" style, has a psychological heft that a screen full on new emails will never have.

Back in 2006 the amnesty fight got so many people riled up at both my senator's phonelines were jammed, 24/7, for a week. If people could only get as upset about their every online/phone/credit card activity being stored and scrutinized by the government as they did about the prospect of people already here getting to do so legally!
>> No. 379641
>>379639
Balon has no economic sense. Mitt would be Tywin if he was cool enough, but he isn't.
>> No. 379659
File 137087360218.gif - (54.83KB , 500x389 , 137059227226.gif )
379659
>> No. 379672
It's like an opportunity suddenly arrived to wipe the slate clean of all the questionably lawful domestic spying in one fell lawsuit swoop.
>> No. 379675
Thank you based Snowden.
>> No. 379676
>>379633
>kids raised on U.S. soil partake in public bombings
>Mass Shootings Epidemic
>half the country bottled up in wave of ignorance due to heavy propaganda deployment of one political party
>most of those people have guns and talk very openly of their dislike for the government in spite of what it brings them
>While "Illuminati" is a stretch, there are individuals working to subvert and hamper governmental power right here at home

I've heard crazier theories. Though I grant you homespun terrorism is a bit rich to cast a net that wide. Still, curious to see where the fallout lands on this one.
>> No. 379677
>half the country bottled up in wave of ignorance due to heavy propaganda deployment of one political party
>most of those people have guns
Stopped reading right there.

Can you stop it with the knee jerk reactionary bullshit.
>> No. 379678
File 13709193842.png - (14.94KB , 461x217 , Obama.png )
379678
Obama 2007
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAQlsS9diBs

Obama 2013
http://gizmodo.com/president-obamas-prism-response-wont-make-you-feel-on-511912648

Second term: Let your inner dictator out.
>> No. 379679
>>379677
you first.
>> No. 379681
>>379633
I think the way we treat school shootings and things proves--it's not terrorism when white people do it, as far as the government's concerned.
>> No. 379682
>>379681
Is that the Government or the Media though?

Serious question. After Ted Kaczynski, you don't think that anyone even entertained the thought that a significant portion of violence over here would likely arise from people already within the country? Internal response does not always equal ideological fronts, especially when those fronts are maintained by conflicting parties.
>> No. 379684
>>379681
Terrorism has a definition you know, it's not an umbrella term for "bad things". It means fomenting terror in the general populace in order to force change of a democratically elected leadership. Terrorism uses democracy itself as a weapon against the society.

Also just because terrorism or crime is possible within USA doesn't mean the government gets to treat every American as a criminal, that's tyrannical in the extreme. And I, for one, would rather live in a world where the 9/11 attack happens every year than in a tyranny, because in tyranny far worse things happen every day.

The president himself says you can't have 100% freedom and 100% security all at the same time, so pick one.
>> No. 379685
After Ted Kazynski and Timothy McVeigh, why do some in the U.S. still think all terrorists are Muslim or non-American? I had a hard time convincing someone that the aforementioned men weren't associated with Al Quaida.

Some Americans are like that person who seems to blame all their problems and hate on one other person, and claim everything can only ever be that person's fault.
>> No. 379687
>>379684
I like that you've conveniently re-defined terrorism to only be possible against democratic governments. I guess your version makes it easier to make loopholes for terrorists you like than the traditional "attacking civilians in a bid to use fear to force change."
>> No. 379693
>>379687
I didn't redefine it, it's a logical inference. Dictatorships don't much care about how scared the people are, so terrorism is useless there. This is true even of shitty "democracies" like Russia, where the leadership isn't affected at all by the almost monthly terrorist attacks in Dagestan and Ingushetia.

A school shooting is not an act of terrorism, there is no political aspect of it. It's a thrill killing pure and simple, has no ties to terrorism.
>> No. 379696
>>379693
What about monarchies? Isn't the fact that terrorism affects monarchies the entire reason we were able to beat the British in the American Revolution?
>> No. 379701
>>379696
Um... no, pick up a history book.
>> No. 379702
Snowden's Funeral (Catch-22)youtube thumb
>> No. 379703
>>379701
One of the most iconic events of the revolution was the Boston Tea Party, an incident in which political dissidents performed massive destruction of private civilian property (the East India Company's, specifically) as a means of making a political statement against taxes imposed thereupon by the British Government. It was a unifying event for both sides of the conflict, because of the British reaction to it as terrorism and the American reaction to it as justified.
>> No. 379704
>>379703

‘One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom-fighter.’
>> No. 379705
>>379703
That's not even vaguely terrorism, its a protest with some small scale symbolic property damage. About 3000 people gathered to protest the tea tax imposed by the British, and maybe 50 people tossing a crate or two of tea into the harbor. It was blown out of proportion by the colonial media in order to foment rebellion.

And it had nothing to do with America winning the actual revolution.
>> No. 379706
>>379704
Freedom fighters that kill civilians are really shitty at the concept of freedom.
>> No. 379709
"The systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion".

" Terrorism is the systematic use of terror, often violent, especially as a means of coercion. In the international community, however, terrorism has no legally binding, criminal law definition. Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians)"

Seriously people, not that hard.


>>379703

East India was quasi-government. Between its charters, state-sanctioned monopolies, legal private armies, and the interconnection between stockholders and the aristocracy, it was more less an unofficial branch of government.
>> No. 379729
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57588456/state-department-mem-reveals-possible-cover-ups-halted-investigations/
>State Department Inspector General’s memo showed that “several recent investigations were influenced, manipulated, or simply called off.”

Yet another reason why accusing people of tinfoil no longer works. We have actual illegal coverups going on.
>> No. 379742
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if misogynist troll and liberal troll are the same person. Both of their strawmanning is pretty similar. Probably a disgruntled 4Channer who finds this place easy prey due to its Tumblr-intersecting (and therefore female or left-leaning) demographics.
>> No. 379754
NSA is turning into thought police or something. Apparently they have nothing better to do than put veterans into jail and class them as "unstable" because they criticize the admin on facebook.
>> No. 379797
File 13711045383.jpg - (134.19KB , 700x490 , 700[1].jpg )
379797
>> No. 379798
File 137110455013.jpg - (142.58KB , 700x490 , 700[1].jpg )
379798
>> No. 379799
File 137110459841.jpg - (135.23KB , 700x490 , 700[1].jpg )
379799
>> No. 379800
File 13711046217.jpg - (128.09KB , 700x490 , 700[1].jpg )
379800
>> No. 379806
>>379800
Looks like Kelly was pretty butthurt on that one.
>> No. 379807
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/us/supreme-court-rules-human-genes-may-not-be-patented.html
>Isolated human genes may not be patented, the Supreme Court ruled unanimously on Thursday.
Nice to have some good, reasonable news in all the recent bullshit.
>> No. 379852
>>379807

Now I have a little bit of hope for their DOMA/Prop 8 rulings.
>> No. 379854
Cheerios Parody "Just Checking…youtube thumb

Best response.
>> No. 379856
>>379854
Scorn and spite is never the best response.
But it is satisfying.
>> No. 379863
File 137121582657.jpg - (52.82KB , 168x376 , Wha?_Natsu.jpg )
379863
I have family members visiting from South Carolina defending Mark Sanford and his cheating with women on the taxpayer dollar because "the wife was terrible!"

HELP ME.
>> No. 379865
>>379863
Reach into their pockets, take their money, buy something, point at your significant other and say she's terrible.
>> No. 379870
Why is no one talking about the NSA thing?
CNN and BBC aren't running anything on them, even though they ran other boring shit for weeks.
Facebook is silent about it, except for a few friends who mention it in passing.
I search for "PRISM" in Google and get 100 results for a sat TV provider called Prism.

The entire situation is being buried...

>>379854
There will always be something to complain about for bigots, because they have the mental flexibility of a gnat, every new innovation will scare them.
>> No. 379874
>>379870
Well the thing is, Prism isn't that huge a deal, as it's apparently been going on for years behind our backs with no apparent ill effect for the majority of us. Most run of the mill folks don't care anyway because outside of criminals it's difficult to define general classes of people who really need to hide, or rather their offenses are so small that they don't need to worry about hiding them, as we are all sort of passingly criminal in the U.S., just because of how screwy our state laws can be.

Snowden was right to come forward as he did, I think, but this isn't quite the national emergency he's made it out to be. To IT and Security Personnel, this is kind of an open secret; we always knew the government was watching, we always knew they had very high-level tech (most state-of-the-art viruses actually emanate from Governments now, not kids in their basements, particularly the U.S.). Snowden has confirmed one of the many tools they have, and for the first time the public has really gotten an idea of the kind of breadth and scope of a project that has likely been in the works since 9/11.

http://www.wired.com/insights/2013/06/are-we-kidding-ourselves-of-course-the-nsa-monitors-as-much-data-as-they-can/

"Before we get too outraged, know this: The NSA’s powerful capability that’s suddenly spinning up the press and certain people (especially those with a political agenda) was released as open source in 2011 and showed up in Defense Department budget documents a while back. It was hiding in plain sight (not buried in vast amounts of data, either).

If we didn’t know, it was because we didn’t care to know."

And this kind of mirrors my own experience. I can tell people how to lock down their computers, make them more secure, less prone to tracking, all this stuff. But it requires technical know-how and most people just can't be arsed. Their lives are open books and they have not had any experience with the potential problems Big Data creates. Because Big Data is difficult to think about, hard to do anything about, and really most of us have sold so much of our souls to it one way or the other by now that really doing anything about it is kind of moot. Which is good because there are very valid, crime-related reasons to do this sort of thing.

A perspective from David Simon, creative force behind the Wire. Good historical knowledge of wiretapping and police procedure.
http://davidsimon.com/we-are-shocked-shocked/
>> No. 379880
>as it's apparently been going on for years behind our backs with no apparent ill effect for the majority of us
Said the blue eyed blonde Germans in 1938.
>> No. 379882
>>379874

We. Are. All. Criminals.

Torrent music? Digital piracy. Let a friend rip a CD? Breaking the Digital Mllenium Act. Use medical marijuana in compliance with star law? Too bad, breaking federal law. Etc. we all break laws, and could all be prosecuted if found out. Of course the government can't arrest everyone, but they can target individuals and groups opposed to them using this information, and its one easy step from having that info to abusing it.

Even if you somehow never have broken a law, you still want privacy. There's nothing illegal about sexting or shitting, but you still want what that stuff to be private. Even legal, morally blameless stuff like your health history could be used against you by a regime that had access to that information.
>> No. 379884
>>379874
>A perspective from David Simon, creative force behind the Wire. Good historical knowledge of wiretapping and police procedure.
He's wrong, though. The supreme court ruled that allowing a drug dog to sniff at someone's front door without a warrant is an illegal search. This is a clear parallel with the collection of metadata--it is "surface level," non-penetrative analysis. I think that you'd have to argue that if it's illegal to search someone's front door, searching someone's metadata has to be illegal to, assuming you accept the fact that the content of the phone calls themselves fall under a person's "effects" as protected by the fourth amendment.
>> No. 379885
>>379882
You don't even have to go that overt with examples:
-Jaywalking
-speeding even a mile over; sharing a nice, copyrighted picture you found online
-"unauthorized access to a website/computer," which is thrown around and so vague that it could apply if you disregard's a site ToS
-if you interact with a police officer and tell him "No" in a curt tone you can get "assault on a police officer"; hell, the officer just has to say you assaulted him, and your time is eaten up, even if you can prove the charges bullshit in court.
-"disturbing the peace" is another catch-all bullshit charge
-In a few states you can be listed as a sex offender just for taking a whiz outside, even if you and the cop were the only ones around for miles, and even if you made sure that your penis couldn't be seen (for instance, going deep into a bush or into a corner)
-Tax violation (everyone is guilty of this; most states have a "use tax" that people are supposed to list when they buy products out of state, or income that you made selling shit on eBay, but no one does unless these are primary things in their life.)

I'm sure there's even more, but these are the ones I know off the top of my head. Everyone is a criminal to some extent, and many people are also felons, just unprosecuted.
>> No. 379890
File 137125785217.jpg - (147.47KB , 724x367 , k-on-socialism.jpg )
379890
>>379882
>>379885
Well, it's illegal to tie up your camel in downtown L.A. And that isn't like a hypothetical. Some dude at some point tried to tie up his camel in Los Angeles and it caused such a fuss that it was made illegal. It doesn't matter that this case was around 100 years ago, it's still technically valid law, even though you'd never have a chance to see it enforced.

And this is kind of the problem with our Judicial System, and with our Educational System, and with our Penal System. This is the problem that the Republicans generate by constantly yelling that they don't want things to change; things need to change. Because around us, things are changing.

Half this country wants us back in the time of the Revolutionary War, and the other half wants to talk about Lassoing Asteroids. About using Genetically Modified Organisms to end world hunger, and about Patenting Genomes and DNA Sequences. About reforming our Patent System, and our Educational System, and Health Care, and Immigration, and International Relationships. About what it would take to make this country truly great, for as many people in the world as possible.

Prism didn't happen because of some sinister notion dreamt up by some shadowy cult, it happened because it needed to happen. It happened because we're in the middle of a cyber-cold-war with the rest of the world. It happened because it's happening in other countries. It's happening because crime is more complex than ever before. It's happening because the framework is already there, and if it wasn't exploited by Law Enforcement, it would be exploited by people far worse, people we do not hold to such high standards as accountability.

I think we need real dialogue about drug use, drug abuse, and what the war on drugs costs us as a nation and as a people. I think we need better sex education. I think we need Less Religion. I think we need a More Informed Public. I think we're not getting any of this as long as people keep yelling about keeping everything the same.

This is what is so frustrating about these arguments. There are things we should be discussing, and I'm actually glad that Prism gives us a leaping off point. But this is what I mean when I say half the country simply isn't ready for this. We're crippled, from a knowledge-base standpoint, and we can't have the kind of public discourses we really should be having.

I don't like how all of this has gone down but I prefer it going down like this as opposed to most of the other scenarios.
>> No. 379892
>>379890
>Prism didn't happen because of some sinister notion dreamt up by some shadowy cult, it happened because it needed to happen. It happened because we're in the middle of a cyber-cold-war with the rest of the world. It happened because it's happening in other countries. It's happening because crime is more complex than ever before. It's happening because the framework is already there, and if it wasn't exploited by Law Enforcement, it would be exploited by people far worse, people we do not hold to such high standards as accountability.
No, mostly it happened because the country is run by people who are lazy thinkers and businessmen, and decided this would be the easier way to accomplish their nebulous goals--which, while nebulous and not universally agreed to be necessary, are not actively malicious--while also funneling ever more ridiculous amounts of money into the military industrial complex and defense contractors.

Laziness, cowardice, and greed are far bigger sources of evil than hatred or malice could ever be. Most people don't have the energy to be really, genuinely nefarious. But everyone has the energy to not give a shit about the things that don't affect them directly, to avoid things they're not familiar with, and compromise other people's best interests in the pursuit of their own.
>> No. 379898
>>379892
If you think this is lazy then I think you don't get it. This is cutting-edge. This is done at a time when the sheer scope of our communicative power is barely comprehended by the layman. This was done using some of the finest minds this generation has to offer, modern-day Einsteins.

What do you do when you get Trolled? Not like some random jackass saying stupid shit in a thread but like that directed, combative trolling like /b/ used to do? Would it surprise you to learn that there are now Lawyers specializing in precisely that kind of case law for people who have been pursued and harassed at the behest of a mob? Or against individual antagonizers? What do you really know about Pedophile rings? Credit Card Thieves? Hackers attacking both their own nations and others? What do you think would actually need to happen to combat these sorts of things?

The constant cry of "this should not occur" ignores the realities of what it means to make something occur. Yes, please, hate on the business people, hate on the politicians, hate on everybody who "allowed" this to occur. Hate on everything you do not understand about running nations, building empires and making large systems work for the most people involved.

This is inevitable, and an incredible opportunity. We stand poised now to learn more about Humanity collectively than we ever have at any other point in history. And we can use that information for incredible good, to get concrete answers and models for real problems.

But all people want to see is that bad; the laziness and the corruption (that they can't put a finger on) and 100 reasons why this won't work, why it's terrible, why we should just go back to the old days when we shocked Homosexuals for thinking about other men. They won't work towards good; they won't take that office, they won't actually try and make it better, they will not push radical ideas that truly make our lives better within the system. Because you have to work within the system, otherwise you are working without the system and trying to shit all over it.

And it's a crap system but I still think we can make it better. We have a pretty good baseline already, but we need to be able to change and understand the times. But if you are not willing to contribute to it then just move to another country for godsakes. Stop shitting up my airwaves with how everything and everyone is terrible. Everyone and every goddamn thing has been terrible since before you were fucking alive. They will continue to be terrible. Everyone slides, everyone changes their mind, everyone is unsure about something from time to time, everyone is even a monster from time to time. Trying to do any good in the face of all of that seems Sisyphean but the fact is that everybody complaining about all this stuff is not really willing to stand up and do something about it. They are not willing to go and try and change this system, to understand how it works and what makes it tick and what you need for real, genuine, qualitative change. Because it is not as simple as just asking for it, but we have a whole nation that doesn't understand that.
>> No. 379899
>>379898
People weren't meant to know what one another was doing all the time. Being able to ignore one another is the very foundation of society. Do you honestly think your life is going to be better if you know all of your neighbor's secrets? Or if your neighbor knows all of yours? Does my grandmother need to know that I don't like her sweater?

Which is, incidentally, how I deal with "serious trolling:" I ignore it. Or, if a subject they've brought up is fun to talk about, I talk about that because I enjoy it. Trolls' lives and opinions are completely meaningless in my life, and I have no interest in knowing who they are or in "retaliating" against them for writing stupid things on the internet.

People are entitled to keep secrets from one another. Half the point of the search for friends and lovers is in finding people who you trust to know those secrets. It is a profound violation of personal space for other people to just take those secrets without having earned the right.

You are not poised to learn more about "humanity" than ever in history. You are poised to learn things that you are not entitled to know, because they are things that belong to someone else. You are proposing that we should be excited about strangers being given free reign to steal our secrets. And until you start putting videos of yourself pooping on Youtube, you really have no place to talk--because if it's really just "okay" to invade people's privacy for the sake of "learning things about them," it's time you let everyone in the world see what you look like with your pants down, and which hand you wipe with.
>> No. 379902
>>379882
>Even if you somehow never have broken a law
Everyone has broken a law, or been an accessory to the breaking of one.
Pretty much this >>379885

The main issue with people ACCEPTING these espionage activities is that people in America have little to no experience with corruption at the institutional level. Oh sure, it happens in America, but the majority of the population never sees it. Like this guy >>379890 and >>379898, a man who actually admires abuse of power on this level and thinks we hold law enforcement to high standards as accountability. That kind of reality disconnect isn't helping anyone, and may be the straw that breaks the nations back.

NSA espionage existed prior to 9/11 or patriot act, it existed prior to the notion of terrorism. Richard Nixon used NSA to spy on political opponents and blackmail them, if you don't believe me look up the Watergate scandal.
This is a long standing problem, of politicians abusing the power our internal intelligence agencies get them, and we can most certainly put several fingers all over why it won't work this time around. It is NOT a response to terrorism, cyber cold war, or because "crime is more complex than it ever was before". That is industrial grade bullshit coming from someone who can't pick up a history book or is barely out of their swaddling clothes.

Although to be honest he seems to want us to be an empire, in which case internal security agencies are pretty much needed, so... before we discuss this issue lets agree as a precondition that we want America to stay a free federal democratic republic...
>> No. 379916
>>379899
>Which hand they wipe with
Now that would make an interesting /soc/ thread.

But in your analogy, your idea of this is that we are keeping "secrets" that "no one should have". Except they already have them. They are the multinational companies you have filed your information with everyday. They are collecting this information, they are using this information, Google and Yahoo were directly responsible for the ability to process this information, through their BigTable and Hadoop Database Platforms. In your analogy, we don't actually need to stick a camera on top of every bathroom stall; we just need to park a monitoring device, like a couple of detectives outside the restrooms. We know what you're doing; we all do it. In 2,000 years of Janitorial work, you think no one has every abused that notion? If my job wants to know how often I shit, they have security cameras, they can review the footage, they can count, and they can figure it out. And that's pretty much how it works with Prism; the sheer volume of the database means that processing and retrieval are not done in real-time, and likely need to be specifically requested to be removed from the computer-overseen data-crunching. Taking a shit is not a secret. Making phonecalls, posting online, these are not secrets. Even here, on an anonymous messaging board, somebody knows who everyone here is because someone can see all the IP addresses that make requests to this site.

Privacy and Security are very similar in that they are both illusionary. We think of security as making something secure, but in reality it just means "less likely to be assaulted due to difficulty of assault". Consider a house. You can lock all the doors and windows. But what's to stop someone from smashing a window with a rock if they really want to get in? Privacy is much the same way: you lock down all your info, but someone reaaaally wants to know about you, all they need are time and some resources. And this isn't always law enforcement, either. There are a subset of hackers who use programs that remotely control peoples computer and turn on their webcams and watch them in their own homes without their knowledge. Now it's possible to protect yourself on your own from people like that, but what do you do when you have been compromised and you need Justice? What happens when a group of people order 400 pizzas to your house and now the pizza company is charging you for pizzas you can't pay for or eat? Or when a small group of people decide to start sending you dead baby photos with the names of your children written on them? John Stewart inciting everyone to call Donald Trump "Fuckface von Clownstick" is funny, but at what point does it change from "crowd-sourced comedy" to "intentional harassment"? And once that decision is made, how do you effectively police and enforce that? Whatever the answer to that first question is, the answer to the second question is "you need software that can track individuals". And Prism is a much more effective solution to data processing than the FBI's individual "hook and control" program, Carnivore.

I may not get any information out of this because people like you want it buried. And the thing is, once it gets buried, it will just resurface, slightly darker, slightly more shadowy, slightly less available to the public eye and public scrutiny. We need to be requesting this information for ourselves (at least part of it); for the benefit of our own self knowledge and for the benefit of understanding how society functions and for the possibility of making it better.

This is happening. It has practically already happened. If it's not the government, it's someone like Google. Whom we're apparently all still fine with.

>>379902
Except that this is totally a response to Cyber-Cold-Warfare. U.S. Banking systems receive something on the order of 2500 attacks a week per institution, and the Nations paying for cyber weapons have put some of the most complex computer viruses that the world has ever seen out there.

We are an empire. An Economic Empire. Or do you think we sent the CIA into those other countries to not remove political roadblock and secure American business interests?I just wish more people would actually sit down at the round table and voice their concerns.

We are an Empire and I want us to be an Awesome Empire, not just a shitty fucking joke about ignorance and bigotry on the tip of every third person's tongue from some shithole Dictator-Driven, Mass-Killings Ahoy Country that we probably helped create. But to do that, we have to have conversations about Law and about Policy and we need to have them out in the open.

You know the best part about all this? We finally get the Blues and the Reds to agree on something, and agree on it so hard that they lie to all of America about it for years. Yeah it seems shady but when was that Black President supposed to announce that they were monitoring everyone? Somewhere in between the loud nuts with guns calling for his resignation and/or assassination? Would we, as a nation, have accepted this revelation if it had not come from a White Face?

You may not want nor like it but there is a necessity here, a rhyme and a reason.
>> No. 379924
>>379882
>>379902
I think the only one I've broken is downloading music, but only either because I couldn't find it in a physical store, I was flat out of money, or there was no way to buy the song. Or I would have had to import it from Japan.
>> No. 379925
>Privacy and Security are very similar in that they are both illusionary

Tenuous, not illusory. They're not absolute, but convention makes them real, and law makes them durable.

>you need software that can track individuals". And Prism is a much more effective solution to data processing than the FBI's individual "hook and control" program, Carnivore.

Except the Fourh Amendment requires individualized suspicion, individual targets. People have to be suspected of a specific crime--money laundering, etc--not just "maybe having broken a law". The whole fucking reason the fourth exists is because the colonists had to put up with general warrants--no oath, no reasonable suspicion, no individual target, no specific allegations. Just a warrant for searching anyone's home for any evidence of any crime. This is no different.


>We are an empire.

And therein lies the problem. We shouldn't be, and need to stop being so ASAP. When a republic becomes an empire, it begins down the path of tyranny and its own destruction.
>> No. 379975
Associated Press Article detailing the history of Prism:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secret-prism-success-even-bigger-data-seizure
>> No. 380023
>>377766
I think this link would be better.
http://www.theonion.com/features/editorial-cartoon/
>> No. 380199
File 137179584949.jpg - (605.63KB , 972x1504 , walls ears.jpg )
380199
>> No. 380484
>this Texas shit
i am upset
>> No. 380486
>>380484
>protestors are being arrested
I am quite peeved, plusfour. Quite peeved.
>> No. 380489
>>380484
The "LGBT rights" thing or the "illegals cant vote" thing?

In the first case they broke into Rick Perrys office, in the second case they broke into Ted Cruzs office.
>> No. 380490
>>380489
The abortion thing.
>> No. 380491
god bless america

god help the texans
>> No. 380492
>>380490
I'm sorry, I lost count of all the ways they're oppressing people down there.
>> No. 380493
http://youtu.be/QxP442T-aZ0
>> No. 380495
all men must die
>> No. 380497
>>380495
im so glad im still just a babbu
>> No. 380498
>>380495
I get what you're saying. In comparison, any complaints about your choice of language means nothing compared to what women in Texas are dealing with, but some men are on your side. A lot of men, actually. Just saying.
>> No. 380499
>>380498
dude

no

people going “yeah but not all x are like y” right now really dont get it

a) theres nothing to be inherently proud of in not being a piece of shit b) we’re not focused on asspatting the people who aren’t pieces of shit right now we’re focused on asskicking the people who are, you dig
>> No. 380500
>>380498
>>380499
AND FURTHERMORE

it's really hard not to be mad at a certain group in its entirety when a very big part of that certain group is adamantly working to make you legally less than human

I'm not saying generalization is right but it's really difficult when in a blind rage because you don't have rights thanks to a lot of these people
>> No. 380501
File 137223541583.png - (15.34KB , 528x163 , misandryinaction.png )
380501
>> No. 380503
I can't help but feel that if the filibust didn't take place, it wouldn't have garnered the internet's notice. And without the internet's notice, the senate may've actually passed this bill.
They knew going through with it would be completely indefensible and the blowback would hit absolutely primal rage buttons for flubbing protocol. The only reason they didn't try to fudge it any harder was because it'd just make the public more angry.
>> No. 380504
>>380500
I'd like to add that when somebody says "all men must die" or whatever it's a purposeful hyperbole expressing anger over some awful shit politicians tried to pull on them again. They don't literally think that every man on earth actually ought to die. WHY anyone responds with "all men are pigs, except for me, right? :)" is beyond me. Why do you need that confirmation that a figure of speech is not aimed at you? Shut up.
>> No. 380506
>>380503
Welll, thats what it takes.
Thats what has ALWAYS taken.
People getting behind a cause.
And sometimes it takes a person, and individual willing to do something extraordinary to do it.

Not to say that its the ideal situation.
But in today's land where all is bleak and cynical - in a world where had Lex Luthor and Superman been invented today, Luthor would be the hero... Thats the kind of thing we need.
>> No. 380508
>>380504
Because they are offended, and there's only two ways to take that. Only one of which will at least let them feel like they aren't being lumped into the probationary shitlist for their sex, and that it's somehow "okay" because they're similar to the current troublemakers.
1.) "You're cool. I only mean the ones causing me problems. I'm just speaking out of anger. Don't take it personally."
2.) "Nope, you're a guy, and because those guys over there are shitheads, you're a shithead by association and you have a lot to answer for. You'd best check your shithead behavior, because your relation to those shitheads mean I'll tolerate less of it from you and expect you to do it. Even when you aren't."

Generally it's ignorant and hypocritical and many know it. Many of the same sorts that will talk your ear off about how ignorant and hateful it is to make offhand anti-semitic or racist jokes betrays ingrained cultural prejudice and hate designed to perpetuate systemic racism, sexism, homophobia and classism. But when it suddenly becomes okay to go 'lol white people', and the supposedly enlightened party turns a blind eye to it.. that would-be enlightened person sees a discrepancy in the whole enlightenment thing. They might be willing to accept the idea "all men are pigs" if there's a clause at the bottom that states "except the ones that aren't", but if the mentality is simply "no, you're also a pig, and because of your proximity to those pigs, the likelihood of fucking up is shorter and the threshold to forgive is further away than if you were female/some other race/some other sexuality." then suddenly that supportive person grits their teeth and does some soul searching about the whole progressive stance that it's not tolerable anymore to speak of groups of people that way.

This phenomenon is a contributor to the base of young republicans and the oil that lubricates the "political correctness is killing America" idol they worship.
>> No. 380509
>>380508
if someone turns away from an important progressive movement because someone in it wasn't perfectly accommodating at all times (i.e. expressing anger in the "all [white] men suck" vein) then they weren't really that invested in it in the first place

if they aren't willing to do the critical thinking necessary to find the very big difference b/w things that perpetuate systemic racism/sexism/classism/etc. and someone taking a jab at white dudes in a moment of anger

well

as a white person, I don't get angry when a POC says something like "kill white people," I just get kinda sad that the world stinks that much, and I only take it personally inasmuch as it's important for me to consider my place in a group that has historically fucked the lives of minorities to hell and back
>> No. 380511
>>380495
>all men must die
Ladies first, it'll be my privilege.
>> No. 380512
File 137225581690.jpg - (53.49KB , 500x430 , white people5.jpg )
380512
>>380509
Hah you can't be real!

Just in case you're serious, you need to understand something: being tolerant doesn't mean letting people insult you, or letting them be racist to you. When someone says "kill all whites" they are demeaning their own race as well as yours, setting back progress for all of us quite a ways.

Feel free to tell them off for everybodys sake, don't be a bitch and just sit there taking it, because that's helping no one. You can frame it as a joke and try and laugh it off or something similar to calm tensions, bottom line it is your responsibility to stop that kind of divisive behavior.

Do you understand?
>> No. 380513
>>380512
>it is your responsibility to stop that kind of divisive behavior
and we all know that white people and their fragile emotions need to be protected

otherwise that one person saying "kill white people" might take away my civil rights/liberties because that's a thing that happens apparently

(it's not a thing that happens, I'm being sarcastic, I just wanted to be clear about that)

honestly I would be more concerned with bringing an end to systemic racism than getting mad at someone who's mad at white people

do you understand

I don't think you do
>> No. 380514
>>380512
>>380513
Louis CK - Being Whiteyoutube thumb
>> No. 380515
DOMA IS DEAD

PROP 8 IS DEAD

THE MANDATORY GAY BUTTSEX BEGINS AT NOON (EAST COAST TIME)
>> No. 380516
>>380513
>and we all know that white people and their fragile emotions need to be protected
It has nothing to do with you specifically feeling insulted. It has to do with maintaining civility and not letting racism return into public life. Because it won't stop at "kill all white people" comments, it gets worse.

>I would be more concerned with bringing an end to systemic racism
Systemic racism won't end as long as you permit people to have a mindset of vitriol and hate.
>> No. 380518
>>380516
let's just agree to disagree before this turns into some tumblr bullshit

you think that someone saying "kill white people" or "all men are pigs" or whatever is a significant hindrance to social progress b/c civility is important (I don't entirely disagree with you there)

I don't, because it never results in systemic discrimination, and tone policing makes for shitty allies IMHO

the end

roll credits

there is no post credits scene
>> No. 380519
File 137226060557.gif - (946.23KB , 500x281 , tumblr_mjw2z90XbH1qzdyqdo1_500.gif )
380519
>>380515
bueno
>> No. 380520
>>380498
this was me.

ladies. gents. did you not read the first thing i wrote in that? i KNOW that this is hyperbole and that men don't need to be coddled. this isn't about accommodating my very delicate man needs. and i'm not just puttering along the side and being a "not shitty man".

i just think that generalizations are detrimental to any cause. you're free to use whatever language you damned well please and i will not think any less of you, but the choice of language can make it so much easier for both the opponents of your beliefs to chew you up and call you ignorant things or make us all stronger. violence of any kind, even verbal violence, makes us weaker for using it.

that's what i was trying to get at. it's the weapon of the enemy. feel free to use it, i guess.

>>380519
now this is a post i can get behind
>> No. 380521
>All men must die

I thought that was just part of the charm.
>> No. 380522
>>380520
I understand. I also agree that generalizations are detrimental and vitriolic statements probably aren't the best way to go.
On the other hand, I also feel that calling attention to this can be kinda derailing. You know? It often comes across as someone trying to distract from the seriousness of people losing basic human rights by bringing up semantics. I DO NOT think that this is what you're trying to do at all. I think you are a Cool Guy. So, so often, though, the people who do get upset about this are like "why aren't you being nice to meeeeeeee your tone is more upsetting to me than the actual problem." I do not think this is what you're doing.
I guess what I mean is...maybe it doesn't matter if we "make it easier" for the oppressors by being nasty because they're gonna be oppressors either way? I dunno. I really don't. I am often conflicted about wanting to get more people excited and interested in social change versus wanting to just yELL AND SCREAM at the assholes holding us back. You know?

>>380519
this post was also me ;)
>> No. 380525
>>380518
OK

>>380515
>implying marriage needs protection
God that was a stupid piece of legislature, glad to see it relegated to the dustbin of history.
>> No. 380526
File 137226706661.jpg - (411.59KB , 1366x768 , ValarMorghulis.jpg )
380526
>All men must die
>> No. 380527
>>380520
sometimes people just want to vent frustration and are not looking to sway the other side's opinions. i think this is an okay thing to do.

and honestly any guy who gets legitimately offended by "all men must die" isn't someone i care about offending.
>> No. 380530
>>380527
Well, okay, but it's a quid quo pro situation--if you get mad at men for being upset when you lump them all together like that, make sure you don't get mad at men for lumping all women together. A woman saying "all men are scum" is no better than a man saying "all women are only interested in men for their money." The man in that situation would probably claim to not REALLY mean it about all women, either.
>> No. 380533
>>380530
do you really not realize the difference between those two things
>> No. 380535
>>380530
>if you get mad at men for being upset when you lump them all together like that, make sure you don't get mad at men for lumping all women together
>if you get mad at whites for being upset when you lump them all together like that, make sure you don't get mad at whites for lumping all blacks together

Obviously it's not a good thing when someone makes a big negative generalization about any group of people. Try to think of this in a different way. Even the example you picked—"all women are only interested in men for their money"—places men in a position of power. Do you see? The difference is that when women rail against men, Congress is still going to be 80% men, all the presidents will still have been men, almost all the CEOs ever will have been men...I don't think I'm explaining myself very well, so I'm going to stop.
>> No. 380540
>>380533
>>380535
I'm just saying--you're perpetuating the cycle of hatred. I'm sure it makes you feel fantastic and all, much like all those people in the middle east who kill each other for killing their ancestors for killing their ancestors for killing their ancestors, but reciprocity never solves any problems. It's barbaric thinking.
>> No. 380545
>>380540
>comparing yelling at people in power to ACTUALLY KILLING PEOPLE
>reciprocity

I don't think you know what that word means. Reciprocity would be a group of blacks staging a forceful takeover of the US gov't, or women somehow reducing men to property. None of that is going to happen. There is no equivalent exchange to be had in this situation. Racism and sexism and whatever are what perpetuate the "cycle of hatred." People being vocally angry about issues is not what causes these issues to continue. I'm getting the impression that you're more upset about people getting mad about the state of things than you are about the state of things.
>> No. 380546
>>380545
Reciprocity means "doing the same thing to someone else that they've done to you." As in, hatred and dismissal of your part of the population. I was using the ongoing wars as a well-known example of reciprocity, not an example of what happens when the reciprocity cycle is just "Being assholes to people," which is the cycle you're perpetuating.
>> No. 380547
File 137228219546.jpg - (21.69KB , 512x383 , yesitstrue.jpg )
380547
>> No. 380550
>>380546
I'm gonna refer you back to this post >>380518 and suggest that we drop this shit before it eats up any more of the thread.

and I just need to say that it's totally asinine to think that women/minorities have the ability to do to white men what's been done to them (i.e. enslavement, mass discrimination, systemic denial of basic rights etc. etc. etc. etc.)

so no, in that sense, reciprocity is not a real threat

and no I DON'T think all white men are evil oppressors, and NO this does NOT mean that every white dude has a great life and no right to complain about anything ever
>> No. 380553
>>380550
Not the same guy, my last post was >>380525

>OK
>> No. 380555
>>380553
ah I didn't think you were, the tone was off
just thought the previous post was an appropriate end
sorry for the confusion
>> No. 380557
Gay marriage is now legal. Celebrate, you great big queers! Every piece of state legislation to make your union illegal can now be struck down in federal court as exclusionary.
>> No. 380559
i think the general point is that making sweeping generalizations makes you sound like the people who make sweeping generalizations

yes, i realize the difference in when a majority does it, compared to when minorities do, yes, i realize that it's a much bigger deal when white men do it because they have the power to do something about the minorities they dislike, but fact remains, when you say "ugh FUCK white men, they are the worst" and then go "well except for you guys, you know I didn't mean you," you sound a LOT like the rich white men who go "ugh, black people are just a bunch of savages" and then add "oh, except for you, you're one of the good ones." when their black friend/co-worker side-eyes them.
it's not always about "m-muh sensitive white-boy feelings ; ^ ;" when people complain about that, it's sometimes about how weird it is for people to complain about others for doing exactly what they're doing.
although it is really frequently just people with white-boy egos being upset for being called a pig, so I can understand the knee-jerk reaction of treating everyone who complains about it like they're one of those people.

that said, nurse's original post was clearly facetious and idk why we're even discussing this
have a song
All Men Are Pigs - Studio Killers (lyrics)youtube thumb
>> No. 380561
>>380555
No prob. Agreed with most of what you said anyway.
>> No. 380564
it was a game of thrones references you nerds
>> No. 380565
>>380526
this one got it

good job
>> No. 380567
>>380564
>makes nerd reference
>calls everyone else nerds
>> No. 380568
>>380564
>Game of Thrones
You mean "A Song of Ice and Fire"
>> No. 380571
File 137229924230.jpg - (253.95KB , 720x2020 , game of thrones brianne.jpg )
380571
>>380565
It was kind of sad reading the rest of the discussion.
>> No. 380572
>>380568
And then there's this guy.

The Axis of Awesome - Rage of Thronesyoutube thumb
>> No. 380575
>>380567
very astute of u next youll inform me that imight be a hypocrite for calling anime fans "weebs" when i consumed 200+ chapters of one peicc e in 3 days
>>380568
shhhhhhhhhhh
>>380571
u are a good person
>>380572
omg
>> No. 380577
Please stop. I want to be your friend but you keep hurting me. We have so much in common but you seem to take any chance you get to make fun of my home and my family over issues you disagree with. Otherwise I think you're great, but it hurts you know. By all means be happy for your victory, but I don't see any reason to be vindictive about it. You always say you're better than that but when the cards are face up you start acting like the same assholes you always preach against. I don't want to see that attitude anywhere, especially not from people I care about. It's toxic, it's corrosive, and we can't grow as a civilization if we keep acting on the joy of vendetta. I understand that they've been so limiting and cruel, but being cruel back isn't going to help them.

I'm just sick of seeing it. I was born and raised very lovingly from that community. I love people both here and there and in spite of our values we can all stand to be pretty decent; so instead of focusing on how angry they must be, let's appreciate the victory for all men and women period.
>> No. 380579
>>380575
no. it's because the responses were all about rhetoric, not about nerd-dom. get your analogies straight.
>> No. 380583
>>380579
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
>> No. 380600
>>380577

I don't doubt that your family loves you deeply, and that you were raised in a caring home. Sometimes that love can blind us to the very real, very human flaws that your family probably possesses.

I can't speak for the mob. Vengeance is a human trait, and some people jump at it, given the chance. It's cathartic, and helps sooth our worldview in the wake of new ideas. Especially when darts, barbs and bottles are thrown over such trivial communications channels as the net.

There are so many ideological forces in the world trying to tell you what to think, how to think about something, how to act "good", what makes the difference between right and wrong. Often it boils down to just talking to someone, listening what they have to say, trying to fit it into your own mental tapestry and saying something back. Some people are good liars precisely because they get at the truth of things.

It's not necessarily because we are better. It is because, in some very key ways, we are exactly the same. All experience is different, but there are a lot of families like yours that loved their children. Right up until their children crossed an invisible line in their parents heads about what is and isn't appropriate behavior. Right up until they questioned some key bit of the reality that held the marriage together. Sometimes, their very existence seemed like that element.

It is said that one has two families in life; the family that made you and the family that you make. And the thing that your second family teaches you is that, when the cards are turned face up, it does actually matter what everyone was holding and saying.

It is poison to take the barbs of strangers to heart. But it is wisdom to wonder why they might say such things.
>> No. 380604
>>380600
Thank you.
That means a great deal to me.
>> No. 380613
File 137236384399.png - (143.30KB , 502x548 , 134043722269.png )
380613
I've been on a white-girl purge on Tumblr lately. One went on about how slavery was all black people's fault and another is equating white women jokes with misogyny and claiming that white women are an oppressed minority.

Also, a bunch of them really like Bioware games.
>> No. 380617
>>380613
Women as a whole are oppressed. When looking at a group of just women, white women are less so.

That being said, they could still face prejudice for having a disorder, or being disabled, or being poor, but not because they're white.
>> No. 380620
File 137236619598.jpg - (91.36KB , 693x586 , opression.jpg )
380620
>>380613
>Also, a bunch of them really like Bioware games.
Ah, the true crime.

Everyone is oppressed in some way by some persons at some point in time, it's only different shades of oppression. As long as we keep it out of the legal system it's gonna be ok.
>> No. 380621
>>380613
White women are an oppressed minority. All women are.

Also I'm one of the Bioware fans, aren't I...
>> No. 380625
>2009
>2,291,812 prison inmates in the united states.
>92% were male.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States
I agree, women are oppressed. Clearly we have been excluding them from prison at the same rates we've been privileging men the opportunity.
Break the glass ceiling!
>> No. 380626
While I'm not casting any judgment on wether women are oppressed or not, I really have scoff at the notion that women are a minority.
>> No. 380627
>>380626
In terms of raw population, women are actually a slight majority. But they are a....let's say a cultural minority, in that they are given a lesser share of the power than men.
>> No. 380629
>>380625
Women are less likely to go to jail because they are always less of a threat than men in the eyes of the jury. Those poor gentle creatures wouldn't hurt a fly, much less break glass.
>> No. 380630
I'd be interested to hear what the arrest / conviction rate of women compared to men was before coming to a conclusion about whether or not their incarceration rate is unjust.

Or rather, if there's a sexual component to the unjustness of the incarceration rate. Because we already know that the incarceration rate is unjust in the US.
>> No. 380631
>>380627
>cultural minority
That sounds ridiculous, like saying women have less culture.

>they are given a lesser share of the power than men.
Then call it a power minority not a cultural minority.

Also
>they are given
Power isn't given, it's taken.
>> No. 380632
File 137237663150.jpg - (116.75KB , 620x514 , woman-breaking-win_1759273i.jpg )
380632
>>380625
>>380629
Duh duh duuuuuh.
>> No. 380634
>>380630
Women:
Are more likely to premeditate the same crime a man carries out.
Are less likely to be noticed or suspected before or during a crime, and less likely to be official suspects after a crime.
Are less likely to be apprehended, post crime.
Are more likely to get warnings from police and let off easy.
Need more evidence and proof before the jury and judge than a man, before they'll admit she's guilty.
Are more likely to get leniency from the court; Jury or Judge.
Are more likely to get less harsh sentences.
Are less likely to go to prison.
Are less likely to do anywhere near as much time as a man for the same offense.

These negatives go up the darker your skin tone and the more Y chromosomes you have. Race is more an issue for men, noticeably less so but still signifcantly for women.
But remember: There are no legitimate female privileges that don't come from a male bias and control in and of society, leaving them innocent of any quantifiable sexual privilege, and thus, any sexual leverage. And if any can be found, surely it's simply a matter of individual discretion and it is the male's fault for susceptibility to it. They simply do not exist until you can prove them to exist, and then you must prove that they would exist without the much established male-centric society. Otherwise, they're just groundless accusations at best and misogynistic conspiracy theory at worst.
>> No. 380635
>>380631
>Power isn't given, it's taken.
wegotarealbadasshere.jpg
>> No. 380636
>>380634
What's your source on these statements? Observation and anecdote, or some sort of study?
>> No. 380637
>>380635
Are you serious? Take a philosophy course on it, power that's given away isn't real power, just an illusion of it.

>wevegotarealuneducatedmoronhere.jpg
>> No. 380638
>>380636
In my case? Anecdote and observation. Which translates to "you're making shit up."
Unfortunately, a lot of these things are like trying to measure negatives. How do you quantify all the harsh sentences that a judges DOESN'T hand down based on sex? We have a difficult enough time measuring which judges and which juries are bringing the hammer down on black men across the US, and they're 13% of the population but 72% of the prison population. It'd quite literally be easier to measure how racist the legal system is than how sexist, given the incidences of the same crimes between black men and white men.
>> No. 380642
>>380638
ram, shut up
>> No. 380643
guys, those of you who get grievously offended by statements about how men suck are taking a conversation about women and twisting it to talk more about dudes and how women should coddle your feelings and egos so youll consider thinking of them as equals instead of, you know, considering women as equals bc its basic human kindness and literally the least you can do.
if you want women to stop thinking you suck maybe you should stop talking over them when they try to talk about their problems being recognized as equals to talk about how we totally made you feel sad bc we said a mean thing.
>> No. 380644
what what ram seems to be riled up over is called "benevolent sexism" and follows the same strain of logic as "why do women not have to serve in a draft/get custody rights more over men????!!!!" (hint: the answer is because they're seen as weak and as mother figures)
also women get incarcerated less than men but women of color get incarcerated more than white women
hth
>> No. 380645
>>380643
>its basic human kindness and literally the least you can do.
Unless you're doing it to the people who benefit from but don't necessarily support discrimination, in which case it's not really important. The circumstances of their birth have lead to them being people worthy of our disdain and not worthy of civility.
>> No. 380646
>>380645
i understand. reading is hard
>> No. 380647
Dave Chappelle - Chivalry Is Deadyoutube thumb

See the girl at the bottom right, at 0:27? The one that makes their husband not clap the whole time during this skit? That's Bea.
>> No. 380648
>>380642
Was that really necessary? I'm not the only one contributing to this topic in the politics thread.
>>380643
Literally no one is saying women should "coddle dudes feelings and egos".
>> No. 380649
>>380646
I just don't understand how you think you're going to build a better world by engaging in the same sort of assholery that got us to this point in the first place, just changing the target. A revolution that engages in assholery just leads to a Differently Bad World instead of a Better World. Just look what happened when Castro managed to overthrow Baptista.
>> No. 380652
>>380649
>Just look what happened when Castro managed to overthrow Baptista.
ok can we STOP with the ridiculous comparisons
Someone saying "white people suck" or "men suck" or "die cis scum" in a moment of anger ISN'T COMPARABLE TO TAKING OVER A GODDAMN GOVERNMENT. Don't act like this is going to lead to some Planet of the Apes horseshit. Engaging in "the same sort of assholery" would mean things like actively disenfranchising white people OR an armed group of feminists staging a hostile takeover of the USA and reducing men to property.
>> No. 380655
>>380652
People say "March comes in like a lion and goes out like a lamb," but they don't mean that the month of March is a large feline alpha predator that puts forth as little effort as possible, engages in infanticide, leaves the hunting to its harem and steals its kills from hyenas that over the course of thirty days becomes an herbivorous hooved ruminant that's covered in wool.

Analogies, metaphors, and similes are often used to illustrate a point without actually meaning that the examples given in them should be taken as literal eventualities. A comparison of one line of thought to another line of thought that come from a similar line of reasoning or emotional space but which had a clearly bad outcome is one way of illustrating the potential pitfalls in engaging in unhealthy ways of thinking. The worry is not that history will repeat itself, but, as Mark Twain put it, that it will rhyme.
>> No. 380656
>>380648
youre not contributing anything to the discourse except shit you just made up to prove some point im not even sure what it is except maybe "women should be arrested more"

>>380649
weird analogy aside, id like to point out that bc of a historical history of inequality in every aspect of a womans life, the generalizations against women carry a lot more weight than generalizations against men. women have a plethora of harmful stereotypes and expectations they are expected to fall into (not that men don't either! men have to deal with a ton of weird bullshit too most of which stems back to patriarchy garbage which sucks and is the worst) and the reinforcement of those stereotypes keeps women from advancing and becoming equals.
a mans words carry a lot more weight than a womans. if a man says he hates all women hes in a position to keep women from advancing. if a woman says she hates all men, the only negative outcome is that people with misplaced priorities feel jilted because they feel like they're not getting enough recognition for being not an asshole

im not trying to psychoanalyze you but it sounds like youre afraid that women are going to start treating men as badly as men treat women now.
>> No. 380657
>>380655
That Castro example was neither a metaphor nor an idiom. Is English not your first language or something? If that's the case, I can understand why the difference between an old saying and a flat out ridiculous comparison might be a little fuzzy, but if not, then you have some serious issues with reading comprehension. The Castro thing isn't an idiom. It is literally a thing that happened.
>> No. 380658
rametarin has a victim complex news at 11
>> No. 380660
>>380656
I don't think women are likely to start oppressing men any time soon. But when you talk the way you are talking, it makes me think that the only reason that's true is because of lack of opportunity, not lack of the will to do so.

I just think that by only considering civility to be worth fighting for in some circumstances, you are trying to create a world where civility is the exception rather than the norm--which we already have. I argue in favor of equality for women because I want a world where a person's worth is judged on who they are rather than what they are, and that's not possible while women are being oppressed as they are now. When you single out a group of people as deserving of scorn or as undeserving of consideration by virtue of what they are, even if you don't have any chance of actually causing meaningful oppression to them, it becomes clear to me that that's not the kind of world you're working towards.

>>380657
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy
>> No. 380662
>>380660
My original point was that it was a SHITTY ANALOGY. The situations are not comparable.

Besides that, civility is a secondary issue to people having their rights in serious danger. IT CAN BE AN ISSUE, don't get me wrong, but it's really not an issue here.
>> No. 380665
>>380656
>it sounds like youre afraid that women are going to start treating men as badly as men treat women now
word
>> No. 380667
>>380662
>IT CAN BE AN ISSUE, don't get me wrong, but it's really not an issue here.
That is a very short-sighted way of looking at things. I will be very surprised if you manage to solve any problems thinking that way.
>> No. 380670
>>380667
Which bothers you more: what the Republican senators in Texas tried to do the other night, or a woman saying "men suck"? Which is the more pressing issue?
>> No. 380671
>>380670
>I can only be against one thing at a time.
>> No. 380673
Live by the sword.
Die by the sword.
>> No. 380674
>>380656
I like you, Bea, but not actually reading what I wrote in one post and then criticizing someone because "reading is hard" is kind of silly.
And as a matter of clarification, the topic isn't just one subject. The first ladycentric discussion started at >>380495 and pretty much 'ended' after >>380564

The next one picked up from >>380613 on down. That's the one I'm adding/responding to. The whole phony baloney "I'm socially conscious and advocate for equality" thing, when what they really mean is they're advocating for their little group, and their whole eye for inequality or attention span for social injustice stops there. That's looking out for #1. So please don't act like it's all just one conversation being bogarted. It's two similar but technically unrelated ones, side by side.
A discussion on equality between the sexes doesn't begin and end with how many cents on the dollar women make compared to men, and that's exactly where a lot of so called conscientious people leave it off. That's just advocating for your group. I'll support a woman's right to choose, serve in combat and even wear pants. How many of them even think for a minute about the positive sexual selection affects them unfairly (dare I say, 'privilege?') and how that affects society, or the nature of equality, even if only in relation to themselves?
They might start giving a shit about the incarceration rate, mandatory minimums and prison rape if it were women incarcerated at those astounding rates and treated like animals. But they aren't, so they don't see a problem worth advocating for.
>>380658
You're very brave.
>> No. 380675
>They might start giving a shit about the incarceration rate, mandatory minimums and prison rape if it were women incarcerated at those astounding rates and treated like animals. But they aren't, so they don't see a problem worth advocating for.

who is this "they" aside from a strawman youve concocted to go along with your previous posts comprised of grade a bullshit bc what youre implying right now is that this current generation of feminism doesnt care about rape culture or isnt concerned with being more inclusive of woc, lbt women or women below the poverty line and youre also implying that this generation of feminists are a group of cackling wicked witches who love to see men suffer in the prison system, which is not a thing anyone has ever said ever.
>> No. 380676
please do not use strawmen feminists in a discussion about unfair generalizations
>> No. 380678
>>380675
>what youre implying right now is that this current generation of feminism doesnt care about rape culture or isnt concerned with being more inclusive of woc, lbt women or women below the poverty line and youre also implying that this generation of feminists are a group of cackling wicked witches who love to see men suffer in the prison system, which is not a thing anyone has ever said ever.

I said people whose eye for social inequality that begin and end at women's issues, don't care about issues beyond female inequality. That is not code for legitimate feminism, and that's why I worded it this way.
The implication you picked up was also not a thing I implied. Even of the people I'm talking about.
>> No. 380680
I'm not clambering for men's rights or anything here, I just want to know why anyone has to be treated as lesser or mocked based on skintone/bodyparts/etc.
Defending one group doesn't mean you have to, or are expected to, or should, oppose the others.
That's all.
I just want people to be nice.
>> No. 380682
>>380680
i think theres something to be said for the amount of petty quibbling that occurs if a woman has the audacity to verbalize her distrust of the people who systematically shit on her 24/7
nothing matters until a mans feelings are hurt, apparently

>>380678
then what are your posts even saying aside from "this group of people i think exist are bad also men go to jail more"
>> No. 380683
>>380682
>All men must die
>"I don't see what's wrong with a woman venting her frustration about society shitting on her for her sex, full time, all year, every year."

>It's very irritating when people who purport to be feminists (but are not actually feminists) or people who advocate for equality and egalitarianism on tumblr are myopic or apathetic to issues that don't affect them, and still call themselves advocates for equality.
>"Oh my god this discussion has no room for generalizations!"
>> No. 380688
>>380683

are you trying to make a funny joke or do you seriously not understand that some things people say have a different connotation depending on who's saying it and to who despite it being explained to you like 8 different times. "why cant i say racial slurs" says white guy
and also the fact that "im inventing a group of shrieking harpies to back up my made up data" and a facetious statement are not even remotely on the same level of discourse or level of offensiveness except that you somehow feel threatened by the idea of women treating you the way men treat us because youre desperately searching for any sign of being oppressed so you can shove your way into a discussion about woman and harp about how you feel sad now.
>> No. 380689
in case ur wondering the correct response to a phrase like "all men must die" is to not care because you shouldnt be so much of an egomaniac that you feel the need to scream until someone coddles and soothes you like a fucking toddler
>> No. 380690
>>380688
I'm not guilty of being in cahoots with the sort of people that oppress you, just because I possess XY chromosomes and male genitals. Moreover, I'm not at this moment every man that has ever belittled you for your sex. Nor do I deserve to be treated that way, or expect to be treated that way as a given for anything at all, just because I have a male sex. As said above, I piped in in response to >>380613 Which is a different discussion from the one above, altogether. Diatribes happen in the politics thread, as do deviations in the discussion. My post came in after a few, and followed them. On topic.>>380625

Here they are.
>>380613
>>380617
>>380620
>>380621

The goal isn't to poke one another in the eye in a game of juxtapositional gotcha. It's to make things less skewed and unfair for everybody. Not just make things better for ourselves.
>> No. 380691
>>380678
This is actually an issue that has been encountered previously in the history of Civil Rights. It is the problem of attempting to support Black People while having White Skin; I can put my body on the side of those I support, I can add my voice to the general cry for basic human dignity. But I cannot every truly stand as a Black Man. In some sense, I don't need to. It is more important to lend credence to these ideas as an outside source, a "traitorous force" in the eyes of some racists. Ultimately, though, it is near-impossible to truly step beyond the bounds of your body, and beyond those issues that pertain to your body, though it is important to advocate for those whose rights are in jeopardy.

This has been the case with Women's Right's as well as the rights of Homosexuals and "Race" Rights. It is hard to overlap and it is hard to sympathize, especially with someone whose experience can be just downright different from yours, and especially when those people have, in fact, their own crusades that they are privately more interested in.

More interested in and better suited to handle.

Power, whatever anyone else says, is ultimately a contest of Wills. Players, pawn, individual people, electrons in the global atom, bouncing around semi-randomly from attraction to opposition through weird fields of influence that can extend all the way around the globe. Sometimes Power exists because you can trick people into believing it. Often as not, it exists because you can pay for it. Real power, however, rests on ideas.

And ideas sink or swim based on the audience.

The wage gap is a problem but it is not 100% the problem. In a down economy, everyone could use a little more dough. It is more the perceptual issues that arise from it. Why, given 2 resumes of the exact same qualifications, the only difference being that one is Male and one is Female, is it less likely for the woman to be hired? What is the enormous perceptual difference between the sexes that causes such outcry as this thread, and indeed countless comment threads across the internet, simply because a woman did something? Should not an idea sink or swim of its' own merits, but still award its' thinker for having conceived it?

I might say your very accusation of being unable to have deference for others' rights applies to yourself.
>> No. 380692
>>380689
So, just for future reference: the correct response to being actively insulted and/or having harm wished upon you by someone else because of your sex is to bend over and take it? And any other response is egomania?
>> No. 380693
>>380691
You don't need to be a man of any color to know discrimination that leads to a hanging is abominable. Nor is any race or sex more suited to logic or reason, and a sense of fairness is something that is inherent. Experience and culture tempers it, but someone is not without it just because they are not experiencing it firsthand. That said, I don't personally see the mentality of the right to abort, serve in combat, etc. as particularly requiring one to be female in order to agree with it. This is why we trade experiences and confide across a vast assortment of people over this great big world. The wider your net of people, the more stories and perspectives you can get.
My area, for example:
http://www.onlinesentinel.com/news/census-states-gay-population-is-increasing_2011-09-04.html
The demographics are almost, to a fault, heteronormative, caucasian and Christian, though it's the least religious state in the union (apparently? Citation needed, but I heard that somewhere). It didn't stop this land and the people on it from passing gay marriage on a People's Ballot. It was not signed through a representative, it was a something we voted for. The people, very much unlike the ones the bill would flag in for and defend, voted in majority favor to defend the rights of others. They had little invested interest in doing so, other than deciding what was right. The way they expressed their will had almost nothing to do with personal exposure, but conscience and reason and dare I say compassion.
If it seemed like I have an issue with correcting the wage gap, I assure you, I'm in full support of equal pay for equal work and addressing the issues of bias by people taking the worker's sex into account when being graded for productivity. That was not the purpose of what I said in regards to it.
>> No. 380694
are you guys seriously responding to and getting up in arms about an obviously facetious comment about "all men must die" even after it was pointed out by the person that said it that it was indeed not a serious comment

is this happening

are
you
serious
>> No. 380695
File 137241160893.png - (84.67KB , 216x216 , damn jimmy.png )
380695
>>380682
>>380683
>All this told.
>The white woman empire is crumbling.
>Half the white race exterminated in the blink of an eye.
>Nobody to stop our sports superstars from living long, successful lives as retired millionaires.

THE HONKIES ARE CONSUMING EACH OTHER.
THEY ARE SO BUTTHURT THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN DISCUSS THEIR FEELINGS WITHOUT RESORTING TO INSULTS, STRAWMEN, AND AD HOMINEM.
THEY SIMPLY COULD NOT STAND LIVING IN A WORLD WHERE THEIR WOMEN COULD COLLECT ALIMONY FOR EXITING A MARRIAGE WITHOUT A SAFETY NET AND THEIR MEN CAN FEEL MAD BY THEMSELVES WHEN THEY DON'T GET PUSSY.

WE ARE ONE STEP CLOSER TO TRUE EQUALITY AND WORLD PEACE.
THANK YOU GHOST TRAYVON. THANK YOU JETPACK PANTHERS.
>> No. 380696
>>380694
It was actually established very high up that the original statement was facetious, and a quote. It graduated away from the quote and became about if ignorance should be discouraged all around, or allowed to be. At least, when certain parties express it. Which is a different conversation entirely.
>> No. 380698
>>380695

This is why you're my favorite.
>> No. 380704
Some women hate men.
Some men hate women.
All women hate men who hate women.
All men hate women who hate men.
My, what a conflict. Let's put a stop to the internet until this matter has been resolved.
>> No. 380706
All women must die.
>> No. 380707
>>380695
moe honey go to bed
>> No. 380708
Except Dr. Nurse, she cool. I'm a make her a sammich she never forget.
>> No. 380709
>>380708
thank u
>> No. 380713
using no caps or punctuation and abbreviations makes u look important
>> No. 380714
>>380713
im impotnet
>> No. 380718
>generalizing sexes
>generalizing races
>2013
>> No. 380746
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/26/us/supreme-court-ruling.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

There are no words
>> No. 380773
>>380746
Politics.

What a riot. There's always a loophole for one side or the other to exploit.
>> No. 380834
>>380746
>The law had applied to nine states — Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas and Virginia
Meh, internal discrimination, if they want a law like this let it apply to everyone, which they allowed:
>Congress remained free to try to impose federal oversight on states where voting rights were at risk, but must do so based on contemporary data

Besides the black judge struck it down so I got no complaint against the ruling, and no one else has any right to complaint against it either.

Only the (white) women judges dissented, because their periods synced and it was that day of the month.
>> No. 381138
>>380834
>Only the (white) women judges dissented, because their periods synced and it was that day of the month.

Dude, shut the fuck up. Also

>Sotomayor
>White
>> No. 381262
Herbert Moon blames the Jewish…youtube thumb

I had dinner with my family.

Le sigh
>> No. 381518
>>381511 (cross post to the general thread)
So frustrating to be caught between all this. On the one hand obviously I support Travyon and his family. On the other hand, I myself had not even heard about the part where Travyon went back and provoked Zimmerman. None of this should have happened for multiple reasons, and Travyon should not have been killed over something so trivial and pointless. But now that everything's on the table, it's impossible to reconcile the needs of equality with the actions Travyon took. I still support him and his family, but while Zimmerman is an offensive piece of shit, Trayvon ultimately walked back into a dangerous situation and though he has the right to be unmolested for his skin color, the thing is that legal rights lag behind reality and no amount of rights could defend him from attacking a guy with a gun.

There's no victory here either way.
>> No. 391791
thank you for share!
http://jimmychoosahoesonsale.com
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