>>102746
A lot of it seems to be bound up in the idea that Aang got everything handed to him on a silver platter whilst Zuko is the one who Truly Suffered and needs a lovely healer for his soul.

>>102798
Like how Mako and Bolin have lived a charmed life because they're benders?

>>102800
>Like how Mako and Bolin have lived a charmed life because they're benders?

Yeah, that.

How many Zutara works feature decent/amicable Kataang & Maiko breakups and the also-rans wishing the new lovers well?

Why in the hell does Aang and Mai always have to be the ones being dumped? Like Zuko and Katara are soo out of their league that they must obviously break up with them.

Please, Aang's the Avatar, to go along with him being quite the ladies man. While Mai's a sexy ninja, who could clearly get any guy she likes. Yet again, This fandom's got it twisted around.

It makes far more sense that Aang and Mai (especially) would dump them. And then they get together and fuck.

After that, who cares what Zuko and Katara do.

That's why I never liked Zutara. It makes you hate the characters

>>102810
>Why in the hell does Aang and Mai always have to be the ones being dumped? Like Zuko and Katara are soo out of their league that they must obviously break up with them.

I reiterate: Amicable. Mutual decision that they are better off friends. That sort of thing.

I find Zutara implausible and not terribly appealing myself, but separating out the associated bashing was the OP's general idea.

>>102809
I just don't get why the Avatar fandom can't be like any other fandom and completely ignore the fact that in canon Zuko is with Mai and Katara is with Aang. If you make Katara and Aang break up it's automatically an AU story anyway so why not just go the whole hog and say they never had romantic feelings for each other to begin with, only friendship?

Zutara is only useful as a way to allow the best pairing of all. Think about it. Aang loves bossy older women, and you know he'd be able to make Mai smile.

>>102840
>>Zutara is only useful as a way to allow the best pairing of all.

>>102840
>>102843

I like AangXMai, but do not like Zutara. I like Taang, but also do not like Zutara.

>>102831

>If you make Katara and Aang break up it's automatically an AU story anyway so why not just go the whole hog and say they never had romantic feelings for each other to begin with, only friendship?

Depending on the Zutaran you ask, that's what the show already was and Mike and Bryan ruined it by making it Kataang and Maiko at the last minute.

>>102840

I would still love to see somebody write the "trap" Zutara fic:

Since Katara defeated Azula, she's Fire Lord now, and Zuko has to marry her because an ancient tradition dictates that the ruler may crown another family member after a one year period into their reign.

They have to spend the year away from Aang and Mai due to a "convenient" rule forbidding previous lovers of the couple from interacting with them (it was meant to stop visits with concubines or other paramours and ensure legitimate children.) so they start getting closer...and begin to really hate the shit out of each other. Like, they lose their ability to get along almost entirely.

Meanwhile, Aang and Mai have to wait it all out, find themselves bonding in the process, and eventually run away together. Realizing that they only have each other...Katara kicks Zuko's ass to the streets and rules over the Fire Nation as its new Queen of Ice and Flame.

No slap-slap-kiss trope nonsense, no nothing. She and Zuko just grow to despise each other, the fic was a Mai x Aang the whole time.

(Alternatively, in grief over losing Katara, Aang finds himself falling into the arms of...Ursa. We had a few fanfic snippets of that idea long ago.)

>>102845
Fuck, don't remind me. The worst part of being into Taang back in the day was that half of the content for it was Toph serving as Aang's consolation prize for losing to ~*smexy Zutara*~

>Sure every single living soul you've ever met is dead, murdered horribly, aside from your pet and a kid you got to know who is now a crazy old man.
>BUT YOU DON'T KNOW REAL PAIN LIKE ZUKO!

Zutara, folks.

You know, I always disliked Zutara (the couple just does not click, and the fans don't help).

But what REALLY rustles my jimmies is the fact that Sukka fanart tends to be more asociated with Zutara, while Tokka is more asociated with Kataang.

All my searches for Sukka fanart have to be filtered for Zutara stuff. Not cool.

Canon shippers should stick together.

>>102895

I'm a crack shipper and even I can't stand Zutara.

>>102888
Odd, its really the other way around,
I've seen a fair few frustrated tokka shippers bad as any Zutarian in terms of thier rage against cannon.

The last episodes of AtLA could've handled some things better. First we got an episode where Aang finally goes ahead and discusses the possibility of a romance, but Katara rejects Aang and tells him she's "confused", and then the four-part finale has barely any Katara/Aang interaction at all. Meanwhile, Zuko slowly but surely manages to earn Katara's trust, they get some "she's not my girlfriend" moments, and as the team splits up in the finale, Zuko and Katara go together against Azula and end up saving one another's lives.
Then at the very last possible moment, Katara suddenly gets over her confused feelings and wordlessly shares a kiss with Aang.
It felt kinda off to me.

I really like Zuko and Mai together. It's nice how they can make one another happy. But if Zutara had happened, it would've had way more set-up and natural progression than Zuko/Mai, which kinda came out of nowhere. Zutara character dynamics would've reminded me of Bulma/Vegeta, and I really like that pairing. I can see why there are so many people who thought Zuko and Katara should've ended up together.

But still, I'm a canon shipper. I've always found it hard to deal with fanfics that break up the canonical couple in order to push their own OTP; it often makes me feel like it's very forced and the characters are acting OOC. Since Zutara didn't happen and since it's not the official couple, I don't support the pairing. But I don't hate Zutarians with a fiery passion either, and I don't think a romance between Zuko and Katara would've been too far-fetched thing to happen.

I don't have much Zutara pics saved on my computer. Mostly just this comic, so I guess I'll post it even though I think the arguments made in the pic are annoyingly stupid. Art is really nice and on-model though, which is why I've got the pic saved.

>>103095


That might've been the dumbest thing I've ever seen. That comic right there is exactly why the Zutara pairing is shit.

And going by your logic, or lack there-of, you are definitely a Zutarian.

The "she's not my girlfriend/boyfriend moments" was Mike and Bryan trying to beat into fangirls head that them together was a dumb idea and that it wasn't going to happen

>>103121
No thank you.
It's not really clear whether or not you think >>103095 was espousing the views in the comic; if you do, then you should probably reread the post. It's possible to sympathize with a cause (if we're using an extremely loose sense of the term "cause", here) without siding with it. Moderate opinions are a thing. They didn't stop being a thing or anything.

Besides, we all know that there are two ways those moments are used: genuinely, to dissuade the idea that two people will get paired off, and unconvincingly, to betray that they're actually interested. The latter probably outweigh the former ten to one in other shows. It's not unreasonable to have been fooled.

>>103126

>It's not unreasonable to have been fooled.


You would've had to be a complete dumbass to be fooled by it.

Or a delusional Zutarian.

>>103095
>First we got an episode where Aang finally goes ahead and discusses the possibility of a romance, but Katara rejects Aang and tells him she's "confused"

More accurately, what she says is that the middle of a war is a shitty time to start a relationship.

>>103095
I admit that I would have liked to see Katara explain why she is so gun-shy about the whole relationship thing (I am partial to the idea that she thought by not admitting her love it would hurt less if Aang went down for good). However....

>Meanwhile, Zuko slowly but surely manages to earn Katara's trust, they get some "she's not my girlfriend" moments, and as the team splits up in the finale, Zuko and Katara go together against Azula and end up saving one another's lives.
Explain why this was more romantic than Sokka and Zuko's little trip if you will.


>Then at the very last possible moment, Katara suddenly gets over her confused feelings and wordlessly shares a kiss with Aang.
Actually (and this covered a lot of sins concerning the EIP episode), she _initiates_ a kiss with him. Whatever confusion she had was cleared up and then some.

>>103126
>Besides, we all know that there are two ways those moments are used: genuinely, to dissuade the idea that two people will get paired off, and unconvincingly, to betray that they're actually interested. The latter probably outweigh the former ten to one in other shows. It's not unreasonable to have been fooled.
This is the main reason claims that Kataang is the 'cliche' relationship in comparison to the Deep&Profound Zutara thing. When people say they are not interested (not confused or nervous, flat out not interested) it is more common than not that they actually mean it everywhere save soap opera romances.

>>103137
>This is the main reason claims that Kataang is the 'cliche' relationship in comparison to the Deep&Profound Zutara thing. When people say they are not interested (not confused or nervous, flat out not interested) it is more common than not that they actually mean it everywhere save soap opera romances.

Yes! Bingo. I think it's absolutely no grounds to argue anything, but that is the trend - because soap opera romances incessantly spill the banks of soap opera. So the confusion is somewhat understandable.

>>103137
>Explain why this was more romantic than Sokka and Zuko's little trip if you will.

It wasn't

There isn't really any point to have Zutara threads anymore as it never happened. So all speculation about it is dead.

Zuko - Katara... you know pain. I know pain. Together we can know pain together!

Aang - Hey, Katara, wanna go dancing?

And then Makorra becomes the new Zutara...

>>103472
Not really, because there honestly is a chance they might go with Mako and Korra. They DO have feelings for one another. They've KISSED which, in terms of "THIS IS PROOF PEOPLE" is actual... proof. That they have feelings for one another.

This time around we actually DO have a love triangle (sorry, TWO love triangles) in the show, it's not just in batshit insane shippers' delusional dreams.

>>103475
I think he means in terms of its fanbase.

Which I don't entirely agree with, since Makorra fans have mostly avoided doing annoying shit like including Asami slitting her wrists in every other picture. And a lot of Makorra fans generally like Bolin, so unlike Aang he's not made to endure stupid ass character assassination where he turns into a controlling woman beater who drives poor, abused Korra into Mako's comforting embrace or some shit. The worst they do on that front is claim that Asami is suspicious because she's not a bender.

They do have some stupid shit, but they're tamer overall than Zutards were in their heyday.

>>103480
>I think he means in terms of its fanbase.

I know, and that's what I was replying to. Zutarra shippers were lunatics that were insanely attached to a pairing that didn't exist. It was absurd.

Whatever might happen with Korra and Mako, at least it's got a foundation in what's actually on screen. So it can never ever be completely as bad.

>>103480
>They do have some stupid shit, but they're tamer overall than Zutards were in their heyday.

That's... not a high bar.

And the Asami hate/paranoia has been rather serious.

>>103576
But that's based at least somewhat in the show. Oh, they're being so unfair to Asami it's downright ugly, but Korra and Mako have feelings for one another, and Asami's presence is a huge obstacle to that.

Whereas with Zutara... Zuko and Katara did not have feelings for one another. Aang was an obstacle to nothing but fantasies.

Whatever you may think of the hardcore Mako-Korra fans, they're getting worked up over something with at least some foundation in the show. Zutarans tried to build a castle on clouds.

Base /co/ had a good thread about it yesterday.

What I don't like on either side are altverses that set up the situations different and then default to canon romance JUST to keep people from going 'KATARA NEVER LOVED ZUKO'.

Yeah, in canon, but what do you think love is? Deep and soul-searching? Love's intensely based on circumstance and situation. You can 'connect on a deep level' with a lot of fucking people, but it takes the right circumstance to do it. There's just as much multiverse potential of Katara going for Zuko as she did with Aang. Not with the canon story, but for fuck's sake, have fun with your altverses, don't just HAVE to go back to 'oh well now that I'm back for five days from being away from the Fire Nation I love Aang'.

>>111660
>Lazy Zutara AUs are commonplace, but it's a viable ship with some effort.

This is true, and I speak as someone who doesn't particularly like Zutara. Not a Kataang partisan. I find them kind of boring, to be honest. (I'm ship agnostic.)

A few years back, as part of some meme chain on livejournal, there was this bit where you were challenged to take a ship you *didn't* like and try to make it work for you. Lemme go dig up the Zutara one...


Aang gets defrosted a few years early, befriends Lu Ten like he did Zuko in canon, and ends up defeating Azulon/Ozai/Iroh and ending the war. In order to solidify the fragile peace, and to eliminate rival claims to his throne, Lu Ten marries off his cousins to important foreigners (thus putting sugar in their gas tanks).

Azula gets engaged to Sokka, the son of the SWT's chieftain, and Zuko to Toph Bei Fong. But when Toph runs away from home, Zuko is honor-bound to track her down. He's helped by his sister, future brother-in-law, and future sister-in-law.

Over the course of wacky hijinks through the post-war Earth Kingdom, Zuko and Katara fall in love but won't admit it. When they finally catch up with Toph, she's running with the Freedom Fighters. They take the foursome prisoner, who escape in time to stop Jet's dastardly plot to blow up a dam. They convince Toph that Jet's no good. Toph performs a hostile takeover of the Freedom Fighters and fires Jet. The foursome agree to fake Toph's death in the flood so at least one of them doesn't have their lives decided by the Avatar and the Fire Lord (both of whom have *clearly* forgotten, in their collective opinion, what it means to be young). Sokka and Azula realize they have nothing in common, and don't particularly want to ever be married. Katara and Zuko, however, decide to pursue an engagement once Toph has been properly "mourned". But then Zuko returns to the Fire Nation to find the Lu Ten ready to introduce him to his next future bride: Princess Yue. But overcoming that obstacle waits for the sequel...

>>111661
No offense, but that wacky "arranged marriages for all!" idea is somehow even worse than normal for an AU Zutara.

>>111661
>princess of the fire nation gets married off to a guy from the shitty peasant village offshoot of the water tribe

>not someone from the water tribe city that actually matters

>>111691
Are you suggesting Azula should marry Yue
because I could get into that

>>111703
What if she became her mom?
*bow chicka wow*

>>111703
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7618500/1/Secret-Poems

>>111704
Holy crap I requested that in an ancient drawthread! I'd lost it and thought I'd never see it again!

>>111711
You should've said something. I have that saved too because it's hilarious.

>>111656
This thing, right?

>>111718

That... was pretty much a clusterfuck of a rewrite attempt, and it looks like they're trying to give Meng to Aang as a consolation prize instead of Toph. You know, that girl he had zero interest in while trying to get Katara to notice him? Ugh.

There's too much screwy stuff going on here to address it all, including the blatant attempts to force Zutara by dividing up the group so that Katara gets left with Zuko and Iroh, but I did want to point out a few things.

>Season 1 Sokka could possibly catch on, and maybe even thumbs up the idea in the sidelines.

Given Sokka's hatred intense dislike and distrust of the Fire Nation and anyone from there, I don't see this happening at all. He's not gonna be like "Yeah! Way to go, angry jerk! You're the man! Date my sister!" Even if he managed to accept Zuko into the group early on, he'd probably have the same problems with Zuko dating his sister that he does with Aang, if not moreso.

>So, Aang goes out and heads back to help everyone dealing with the invasion, but is struck down by Azula. His basic Avatar State stuff gets Iroh free, and he escapes with the Gaang chaos, but Aang just Avatars himself out of there, while the Gaang is split.

Wait, what? So Aang does get shot full of lightning by Azula, but then he's magically okay and his "Avatar State stuff" saves the day and he "Avatars himself out of there"? Yeah, that pretty much tells you what this person thinks of Aang and the Avatar State, doesn't it? Avatar State, yip yip! Magic Avatar Powahs, activate! Bring me back to life again and teleport me outta here!

Then there's this weird stuff going on with Katara being captured and taken back to the Fire Nation with Zuko where she's not really a prisoner, except she is, no wait, she gets free and learns Bloodbending, but then she's caught and placed under "strict house arrest".

...Yeah. Clusterfuck.

>>111727
Learn 2 sentence structure.

That Sokka sentence is him catching on to Aang's crush and going 'sure I'm fine with it' before they really got to know Zuko.

Also, of course putting Katara and Zuko together means their relationship grows instead. You're a few social interactions away from a different set of friends. Fate and destiny aren't parts of the Avatarverse, they interact more they don't get on each other's bad side as quickly.

Yeah, that part with the Avatar escaping makes little sense, but of course it's more twisted up. There's steps taken in Season 2 they have to navigate around to even get to that sort of thing.

And shit, at least it's not 'KATARA FELL MADLY FOR HER TRUE LOVER OMG SHE ALWAYS FELT FOR HIM SNOG SNOG SNOG' a friendship grew into some mixed up feelings and then a relationship from Season 2 onwards in this.

You know, in retrospect... not even the canon relationships were that strong.

Sure, we talk about Zutarans seeing stuff in the cartoon that wasn't there. And the Idiot's guide to Zutara stuff was painful. But, you know what? I rewatched Avatar, and I didn't see Katara interested in Aang beyond being a friend and caring about his safety and her goals in all of Season 1 either. Sure, she protected him, and got jealous, but fuck, she wanted to get in Haru and Jet's pants mostly. She only start considering Aang as possibly a partner outright after Aunt Wu's stuff. And it's Cave of Two Lovers she even shows that affection stretching out slightly. Yeah, evenutally it's there, but it only starts showing up slightly, then takes a backseat in Season 3, is all but gone by the second half of the last season, all but said it's not there in the last few episodes, and then 'oh you saved the world, let's smooch'.

If Zutara had been made in that regard at the end, I wouldn't have cared in retrospect. Neither pairing was set up well. Zutara had the tsundere stuff in it that could have built from their interactions in Season 3, but Kataang was not that stronger. Hell, Sokki/Suka/whatever wasn't that strong either. 'Hey, it's that girl that smooched you in episode 4 of the first season, NOW SHE'S YOUR GIRLFRIEND! YAY!' Mai was bland and all sorts of bipolar about Zuko. Only Sokka and Yue felt strong, and they killed her off.

The romance was never good, in anyone's case, and yeah Kataang was canon, but I look at shit like >>111718 and all I think is: 'It doesn't sound any less dumb than the show I just rewatched.'

Hell, we're only noticing the relationships are shit now because it was all Korra wanted to talk about. And don't give me that 'one season to work with'. This is basic level perspective of 'am I making my main heroine out to be a gigantic cuntzilla? 'cause I don't want that, right?'

>>111732
If the relationships in ATLA didn't feel very strong to you, it's probably because romance was not the main focus of the series. Magic kung-fu action and friends saving the world was. Romance existed, but it didn't take center stage.

I find it curious that you think Sokka/Yue was so strong, when that was the relationship that developed (and ended) the fastest. And I have nothing against the pairing, I thought it was cute, but when you break it down, it was really one of those drama-rama, starcrossed-lovers who can't be together because of other people and DESTINY kind of romances. Sokka sees a pretty girl and is smitten, a mutual liking begins to form, then DRAMA occurs because she's already engaged and is torn between the whole duty-to-my-people-vs-following-my-heart situation, then she ends up giving her life to save the moon. All this happens within a few days.

With Kataang, yes, it may have seemed like Katara didn't have feelings for Aang beyond friendship, and it may have been that way at first, but it was a friendship that grew into love over time. Essentially what >>111718 was trying (and failing) to do. And if you never noticed the gradual changes in their relationship, well... what can I say? Unlike the canon Zutards, I'm not going to write an essay full of screencaps of scenes for PROOF, but it was there.

>[Katara] wanted to get in Haru and Jet's pants mostly

Jet, yes. Until she discovered his crazy terrorist side. Haru, hahaha, NO. But that was presented as something of a joke in the series by Toph later on.

Anyway, as for Sokka/Suki, by the end of the episode in which she first made her appearance, there was a bond between them. That relationship and bond was strengthened when they met up again in "The Serpent's Pass". So by the time he rescued her from the Boiling Rock and she joined the group, they were an official couple, and Suki's character got some more development by joining the Gaang. If you can accept how quickly Sokka and Yue got together, why not this relationship?

When it comes to Mai and Zuko, you sound like the kind of person who just doesn't like Mai/Maiko to begin with, so I won't bother trying to defend this one as much. But they did have their childhood crushes on each other, the flame was reignited in that Nickmag comic story, and in spite of all the troubles they had during the series for one reason or another, that love stayed strong by the end of the series. Which is why Gene Yang breaking them up again in the comics is such bullshit, even if it's temporary.

tl;dr The relationships in ATLA were stronger than you think, but hey, opinions. Not going to argue with you too much about Korra, but hopefully book 2 will sort things out a little better.

>>111729
>That Sokka sentence is him catching on to Aang's crush and going 'sure I'm fine with it' before they really got to know Zuko.

My mistake, I completely misread that. But I still don't think Sokka would react that way with Aang either.

And I agree that it's better to have it grow from a just friendship into a relationship, but I can't see how this can be done earlier on in the series without drastically altering everything just for the sake of a pairing some people think is hot. I think the only chance canon Zutara would've had, without changing the events of the story too much, is if Katara really did think of Aang as just a friend or little brother and never changed her mind about it, Zuko and Mai never hooked up, and the show got a fourth season.