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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

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114865 No. 114865
Just wanted to let you guys in on this.

http://boards.4chan.org/co/res/54854572#p54888447
https://archive.foolz.us/co/thread/54854572/

Regular /co/ still loves Avatar very much and does shit like this once in a blue moon, when they aren't bitching about LoK.
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>> No. 114866
>>114865
Avatar was good, Legend of Korra is not.

Its understandable they would say bad things about a bad show, perhaps especially if they enjoyed the superior series that preceded it.

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
>> No. 114868
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114868
>>114866
>> No. 114871
>>114866
Stille, schweinhund! Die Wahrheit zu sagen, ist verboten! Nur die Meinungen von denen Daniel Murphy genehmigt sind relevant und darf diskutiert werden.

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
>> No. 114876
>>114871
Dude could have literally ignored a thread that was meant to be positive but just chose to post because they didn't like the idea that people actually like LOK.

There's a difference between civil critique and shit like that.
>> No. 114877
>>114866
>>114871

Really? Really. Not one thread goes by that we can't avoid this?
>> No. 114879
>>114877

No.

God is dead. Now we must dance the dance of the heathen gods!
>> No. 114890
This board's skin has grown too thin.
>> No. 114895
>>114877
I know it sucks how /co/ mindlessly hates korra but at least they don't ban people for liking it.
>> No. 114897
>>114895

You're a fucking idiot if you think coming to the Avatar board to mindlessly trash Avatar won't result in having a real bad time.
>> No. 114898
So ignoring the haters, not a bad thread there. Nice find.
>> No. 114899
>>114890
>>114895
You can dislike Korra here, but intentionally going into a thread that is supposed to be positive just to shit on it is asshattery at its finest.
>> No. 114901
>>114898
Thanks, it's still going rather nicely.

Has /a/ done something on the subject?
>> No. 114912
UGH, it's pissing me off how people keep trying to make fem!Zuko delicate and weak and spurned by her father because of her sex. Zuko is a loser- or starts out as one- but he was also a BADASS, and Azula was never rejected for being a girl.
>> No. 114936
>>114912
While it does seem that the FN is really big on equality of the sexes and everything, I don't believe Azula would have ever been made Firelord if she weren't such a badass herself.

As for fem!Zuko being delicate, I didn't get that at all.
It's just that the thread seems to focus on the emotional scenes, because that's where the meat is.
Besides, Zuko is a big softy at heart and ladies usually have a little less trouble showing that they care. This is by no means a sign of weakness.

Although the reason because he gets exiled above all else is that Ozai thinks he's a weakling.
>> No. 114940
>>114936
Well, no, she wouldn't normally have been Fire Lord no matter what gender she was. Zuko was the older sibling so he got first dibs even though Azula was obviously more skilled than he was. It's not a gender thing, it's birth order.
>> No. 114945
>>114936
femZuko being delicate is a bit odd. But I don't think it's that common either

femZuko being awkward and bad at communication seems to make much more sense.
>> No. 114946
Just a friendly reminder, there currently does not exist a fic where only the siblings genders have been switched.

No one has ever capitalized on the fact that the safest way into Ba Sing Say for Prince Azulon is still by dressing as a Kyoshi Warrior.

Nor will we ever see Sakkara ever disguise herself as Fire Wang.

Hell there hasn't even been a romance about Zuka falling in love with the Avatar.
>> No. 114947
>>114946
Well, get on it, man.
>> No. 114948
For some reason the visible lips/lipstick on femZuko looks really off to me.

I really dig the look of the rest of them, though.
>> No. 114949
>>114948
She'd have lipstick at the beginning, and when she's back in the Fire Nation in book 3, but as an outlaw in book 2, and when she's joined up with the gang, she'd probably forget it. It is a luxury after all
>> No. 114950
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114950
>> No. 114953
Regarding birth order, it is like agnatic-cognatic. What that means is that while women are not spurned from succession, the male is favored and if a younger brother is born, he will be heir instead. Now, I think this is the likely system considering every single Firelord before Azula in foreseeable history was a man, and that there is no adaption of 'Firelord' for women that Azula could have adopted. This is often evidence of a mainly male-dominated succession; in ancient Egypt there was no title for Queen, so when the occasional queen did appear, such as Hatshepsut, they adopted the male title of Pharoah.

Now, I think there is some leeway with the fire nation because Ozai is a supreme lord of everything as well as one of the most powerful benders in the world. He would likely pick the heir he most liked. Considering Zuka is a firstborn daughter, he may be even more antagonistic with her than he was with Zuko; at least with Zuko, there was the implicit effort, at least in the early years before Azula showed her potential, to prepare him for becoming the next firelord. With Zuka, however, he could be very negligent and antagonistic from the start. This could lead to Zuka gravitating even more towards her mother for support, or even try to be more boy-like in order to impress her father, which could allow her to have some more masculine and strong qualities instead of just a painted doll while at the same time not being a man with tits.

4chan's /co/ posited an interesting theory, that Azulon would look towards his mother for support more than Azula would. I think with the concept of the Oedipus complex understood, this could certainly be the case. While Azulon would look towards his father for martial and masculine support, he would attempt to look towards his mother for emotional support. Zuka would be resented for trying to take up more of his time with mother, and being her favored child, but I think especially after Ursa leaves Azulon could project that need for a surrogate mother upon Zuka, willing or not. Without as much of a need to prove himself to Ozai as capable despite his gender, Azulon could look more favorably upon his sister as a support, even if it would be tinged with abuse and the confusion resulting from Ozai telling him his sister is weak despite him needing her to be emotionally stable in some sense.

This is not to say that Azulon would curl up in bed beside Zuka and ask her to read him bedtime stories at the age of 14. Rather, it means that he would be more interested in her preservation, if only for selfish purposes, and Zuka might be more reluctant about throwing her brother under the bus even as she opposes his control over her.
>> No. 114955
>>114953
Nicely done, it also goes well with the proposed story of how Zuka got her scar and banishment.

For those unaware: The popular opinion is that Ozai was planning to marry his useless daughter off to the Earthking. That way he can concentrate of flattening the Watertribe and possibly even gain access to Ba Sing Se without a siege.
Zuka isn't thrilled at the prospect, but willing to go along with it if it pleases her father.
Shortly before the wedding preparations are finished with some Earth Kingdom representatives, Azulon visits his sister.
He lets slip that the whole thing is a farce to the Firenation Generals and that they'll take the Earthking hostage the moment he leaves his impenetrable walls to meet his blushing young bride.
Zuka is horrified at this underhanded treachery, makes a scene and sends the Earth Kingdom diplomats off without an explanation.
He attempts to explain the situation to his father, but as it turned out Azulon lied to him (Though he will claim that he must have misheard or was duped himself). These plans were never made.
Having lost face in front of a foreign power and witnessing the obvious disrespect and dishonesty of his daughter spawned from her own vanity, Ozai disfigures her:
>I will take your beauty, since you seem to value it more than your family's honour.
Exile follows shortly.

When Zuka finally pieces the whole story together and confronts Azulon, he admits that he couldn't stand the thought of seeing his sister chained to some Earth Kingdom degenerate and that he did her a favour. And the scar suits her. She looked too much like mom anyway.
>> No. 114967
>>114955
That was suggested once and never really talked about beyond that
>> No. 114968
>>114967
That's probably because it's 4chan /co/ so the thread got flooded by completely important and integral talk about who is who's waifu and bicurious Sokka
>> No. 114969
>>114968
Well alright, let's talk about it here

I think it's kind of stupid, it replaces something that doesn't need to be replaced. If you believe that Ozai would never let his daughter sit at a war council, then she can have been eavesdropping through a door or something before her outburst
>> No. 114970
>>114969
I do agree a bit. I'm not too sure on the Earth kingdom angle- Ozai has never been the type to negotiate. Iroh may have tried to pull something like that, but this was a guy who decided the best way to deal with rebellion was to burn a continent. I don't think international diplomacy interests him.

And why should it? We never get many hints that the earth kingdom is so hard to deal with that they need to divert vital resources to the effort- they clearly had enough to support both any fighting they were doing in the EK as containment while also staging a massive invasion of the Northern Water Tribe.

I enjoy the angle of her spying on the war council or something like that. Though, it doesn't quite have the same poignancy as Zuko's outburst.

We could always include Iroh into this- Zuka is interested in listening to the war council, thinking her father will be impressed if she displays something that she knows and showing that she isn't completely inadequate next to Azulon. Iroh says it would be most discourteous, especially for a princess, but doesn't want her to be completely disappointed, so he recommends a hiding place he always used when he was a child. Then cue the scene as per the series, except that Zuka bursts out of the curtains, making her dishonor even worse.
>> No. 114971
>>114967
I seem to remember that it was met with positive reaction and not really argued against.
And checking the archive, it was.

The second part of the comment boggles the mind.
Why make an AU to begin with then?
Evesdropping through a door is an okay solution, but where's the fun in that? The point is to find alternate winding roads to similar or the same goals.

Besides that the idea of a political marriage, was something that was supposed to come up with Azula in the original series, before it was scrapped due to time constraint.
Whether that would have been within the Firenation or not is up to debate.

Say what you will about regular /co/, but seeing as how this thread started off, I'm kinda regretting it moving here anyway.

>>114970
Bringing Iroh into it isn't a bad idea.
But just because we never saw Ozai really play at politics, didn't meant that he just always looked for a violent solution, although he would gravitate towards these.
We have to remember that Sozin's Comet is still some years away and the war goes on regardless.
Perhaps Iroh gave the suggestion to remove Zuka from her father's and brother's harmful influence, wanting her in better care and having heard positive things about Kuei (or somebody else).
So it'd really be a rescue plan.
And Ozai would probably say yes, since it'd get her out of his hair and give him some kind of advantage when the time is right.
>> No. 114972
Sokka would've been a delicious brown human version of Kitty Katswell. And unless Suki stayed a girl, they would hate that Kyoshi warrior with the force of ten hundred suns.
>> No. 114978
>>114971
>Say what you will about regular /co/, but seeing as how this thread started off, I'm kinda regretting it moving here anyway.

Oh, don't fuss just because some people disagree with you. The whole political marriage thing isn't a bad idea, per se, but I'd have to agree with >>114970 And if canon Ozai wasn't going to marry off Azula (pre-series idea aside) why would AU Ozai do it to Zuka? I think it just shows that once you genderflip a character, you get a little subconscious sexism going on.
>> No. 114985
>>114971
The point is to see what would be different by changing something minimal, not purposefully looking for ways to change it after that has already been established.

It doesn't even make sense, Ozai wouldn't even deign to give the Earth King that level of respect, even if he did hate his firstborn daughter. He would, however, give no fucks about scarring her simply because, as a "weak" daughter, she doesn't even matter at all considering how powerful his son is.

Now there's a change that would occur, without Zuko looking like the most likely next candidate for the throne. Ozai would have been putting more effort into raising Azulon from a young age, because even if he was as average as his sister, he'd still be the one to inherit the throne anyway. As a direct result, Azulon would be much more willing to use brute force, rather than focusing on subtlety.
>> No. 114989
I just realize something.

On the night of the request made by Ozai to Firelord Azulon...who does Azulon order him to kill?
>> No. 114990
>>114989

Now that would be a major departure in the canon. I doubt we'd get the same "Ursa the Exile" story if Ozai wouldn't be keen on losing his favored child as well.
>> No. 114991
I mean, think about it. It confused me a bit in canon that Azulon ordered Ozai to kill the son he doesn't really care about instead of the daughter, but that could be explained by Ozai's value in Zuko being his gender and birth order. With Zuka, Azulon knows it would be pointless, and in any case would want Ozai to know how it feels to lose a son.

So would he ask him to kill Azulon in that case? Keeping in mind that Azulon is probably listening to the conservation as it is going on?
>> No. 114992
>>114991

He did it because Ozai asked to be Fire Lord while Iroh was still grieving for Lu Ten, to show Ozai the pain of losing his son. Keeping that the same, it follows that he would ask Ozai to kill Azulon Jr. instead of his first-born, a girl.
>> No. 114993
The big question then becomes; Would Ozai do this? This madly changes the plot if Ozai refuses and if Little Azulon is watching his father hesitate and then even ACCEPT that he will have to kill his son that he could flip out. I mean that would basically have his entire world cut from under him.

Going with that route would change a ton of things.
>> No. 114994
>>114991
Perhaps Azulon would ask for Ozai to kill his son and Ozai actually protests, with young Azulon watching which endears him further towards his Father, and Zuka being the second choice.
Or maybe Zuka is just chosen because she's firstborn, Azulon already knew Zuko was a lackluster firebender when he chose him to die we don't know for sure Ozai wouldn't have chosen Azula as his successor 50 years down the line or whatever.
>> No. 114995
>>114978
Nonoonono, you can dislike my idea. You can think it's crap and tell me so.
I just find shooting something down and not even giving any creative input of your own to be pretty shitty.

You see, the criticism here >>114985 is constructive and spins new ideas, while disagreeing.
It keeps the ball rolling.

That's how you want to approach this stuff.

>>114985
It's very hard for me to even think from Ozai's perspective because he's such a non-entity for most of the story.
And when we do see him, he's usually filtered through someone else's perception.
The comics flesh him out a little more. He seems to be a reflective man, utterly devoted to absolutism.
As he said to Zuko, his choices are always right, because he's the Firelord.
Also I never got the sense that he particularly looked down on the other nations. He just tried to subjugate them, then deemed them more hassle than they were worth (on Azula's urging) and decided to destroy them since they wouldn't bow.
Most of the superiority talk came from Zhao and Azula.

Frankly I'm not sure what Ozai is willing to do or if he would perceive marrying his daughter off to someone of a different nationality to be that big of a deal for someone who'd be willing to kill his children to acquire more power.
>> No. 114996
Who would he marry her off to, exactly? The heir to the Northern water Tribe is a woman, and the earth king would not be allowed by Long Feng to actually marry anyone that isn't 'prepared' beforehand. Remember that they would basically have to set it up so that Zuka wouldn't give away the whole war business. How exactly do you do that?

Not to mention that I'm not sure how much the Fire Nation knows about Ba Sing Se. I think they have an inkling about what goes on with the Dai Li, but not much more. Why would Long Feng give Ozai the ability to use his daughter to manipulate the earth king into finding out the truth and undermining Ba Sing Se?
>> No. 114998
Regarding the marriage scenario, I don't really buy Ozai marrying his daughter to a man he's waging war against, it would be an unprecedented act of respect (if we're to believe Yu Dao is the first scene of crossbreeding) and seems somewhat futile given the Fire Nation's successes and Sozin's Comet's closeness.
Not to mention the Dai Li's natural dislike of an unknown, enemy variable being given a position of great influence over Kuei.
That said, I do like the idea of a marriage as an alternate backstory. If Zuko showing weakness at the war council is a masculine failure and display of dishonor, then Zuka ruining an arranged marriage is a feminine dishonor. Obviously Zuka would still require a selfless, moral objection to Ozai's plans like Zuko had, and if she were being wed to a Fire National, I'm not sure where this would come from. I also very much like Ozai scarring her being a direct attack against her beauty rather than a side effect of punishment, it makes it more poignant should she end up with Aang which seems to be the preferred pairing.
Ultimately though, it is unnecessary, it's putting obstacles in the path between flashback Zuka and Book 1 Zuka when the original already establishes the course. You want Book 1 Zuka to be Book 1 Zuko but a girl, so any alternate origin must still tie in with that, but there is wiggle room to be had and there's no harm in theorizing.
>> No. 114999
>>114996
>the heir to the Northern water Tribe is a woman
This gender-flipped universe seems rather arbitrary. So it only applies to the heroes plus Azula? Why? I can see the issues that would arise from flipping the entire Avatar world (unless we change these patriarchal societies into matriarchal ones), but wouldn't it at least make sense to extend the reversal to everyone in the main characters' general age group?

Unless we're all agreeing that Female Sokka, Suki, Jet, Yue, Mang, Jin, and Mai are all being re-written as gay (and, depending on your interpretation, Ty Lee is being re-written as straight).
>> No. 115000
>>114999
The original thread just genderbent The water tribe and fire nation siblings. We're operating under that assumption right now.
>> No. 115001
>>114996
>>114998
Why are we so set on marrying her off to someone from another country.
Ozai could try to give her away to someone influential within the Firenation.
>> No. 115002
>>115001

This again, begs the question of who? Vaguely mentioned fire nation noble? Someone who is from the series (man if she met him again that would be an awkward scene)? Entirely new character?
>> No. 115003
>>115002
Who do we know that is a Firenation citizen.

Zhao would be an obvious answer, but he's really not that big of a deal at the point of banishment...

Piandao, when they still though they could get his support?
Jeong Jeong before he went awol?
>> No. 115004
Zhao- A bit too creepy and he's a captain, or even less, at the time of the banishment. An unlikely choice.

Piandao- I find this one interesting. We could have had her having a prior relationship with Piandao- perhaps she was taught swordsmanship by him?

Jeong Jeong- I have a feeling he had deserted a while before Zuka would have been marrying age, maybe before they were born. Otherwise, such a prestigious teacher would have been enlisted to train either her or Azula. That one's up in the air though.
>> No. 115005
Personally, though, I don't think we should agonize over who the person she was supposed to be married to was. I think, rather, that it should be focused on ow she managed to piss of Ozai enough to have him burn her face?
>> No. 115010
Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I don't think we should ditch the war meeting interruption in favor of the arranged marriage hook.

Zuko interrupted that meeting out of indignation that a general of his country would willingly and carelessly toss away the lives of its soldiers, it's a little too much of an important moment, if you ask me.

Also, if the fiancee is something that's too good an idea to drop, he doesn't have to be an established character. Hell, if you end up going with genderbent Zukaang, he could even be a recurring antagonist/romantic rival, as serious or goofy as you'd like. I'm thinking if he's comic relief, then kinda like Hahn or Prince Charming from Shrek, a boorish self-obsessed pretty-boy idiot.
>> No. 115016
>>115010
Eh, I'm not really keen on the marriage idea either. It doesn't make any sense for the Fire Nation, which is so convinced of it's superiority, to try and marry into the Earth Kingdom.

Of course, if one assumes that the Fire Nation is agnatic-cognatic as above, then we do run into the unfortunate problem that Zuka likely wouldn't be present at the meeting which lead to the canonical Agni Kai, since Zuko was there because he expected to inherit, and thus wished to attend so that he could learn. Zuka, who would not inherit, would not have the same reasoning.

To be honest, what I don't know is why people want Zuka to not be the heir, and then NOT explore the massive shake-up to canon that it would result in without the need to shoe horn excuses for Zuka's early involvement in the show.
>> No. 115044
>>115010
I don't think you're in the minority there
>> No. 115047
>>115016
It's all due to spculation, there have been no known female firelords, so that implies male inheritance
>> No. 115054
Zuko being female puts a new spin on things. You have three generations (four with male azula) of pro-war male leaders, but it's the oldest daughter who first sticks up for the soldier's welfare and then advocates peace. It reminds me of the sitcoms where the single woman in the office was the one who spoke up about something being immoral.
>> No. 115111
>>115044
Then why are we talking about nothing else?
>> No. 115114
>>115111
Because one guy really wants to push his idea.

Other things that need discussing are how Zuka and Iroh interact, the relationship between Kotaro and Sokkara, and where the plot differs due to Aang not having his crush on one of his companions
>> No. 115115
Should lady Zuko where one of those half masks over her burn scar? I dunno, I don't have a reason for it apart from female royalty but they look cool.
>> No. 115166
>>115114
Would he not crush on Sokkara a little?
Nothing that develops into anything meaningful like Katara but he'd still find her attractive and maybe even be a little intimidated by her for the first legs of their adventure.
>> No. 115168
I just assumed Aang would still love man-Katara. I mean, they're soulmates, right?
>> No. 115191
Whether or not there's sexism in the Fire Nation is kind of debatable (though you guys do make good points). It's canon that the Water Tribe has segregated gender roles though, and that Sokka largely bought into them without thinking until he was brought down a few pegs by the girls of the group. Meanwhile, Katara rebelled against expectations. Gender roles played a relatively big part in both of their characters, especially in the first season. How would this change if Sokka had been a girl and Katara a boy?

Which discipline of waterbending would Kotaro have learned before going to the North? Fighting, because it was expected of men, and he was the last hope of the Southern Water Tribe? Or healing, because the only one who could have taught him waterbending was his mother? If the former, would he have wanted to learn healing in the North and have been rejected? (And if he does not have experience in healing, who helps Aang after Azulon mortally wounds him?)

Is Sokkara a "warrior" like her father from the outset, or--because canon Sokka was not really one to question gender roles until confronted with them--would she have played a dutiful daughter role, and it wasn't until she befriended Suki that she realised she could be a girl and a warrior, too? She left with her younger brother in order to take care of him like an older sister should, rationalising that two guys wouldn't survive the journey without a girl to keep them in line, but realises over time that she's not content with being the heart of the team, that that role is actually better left to Kotaro and she shouldn't be pushing herself to be somebody she's not; she's the brains, the inventor, someone that the water tribe could really use in their army, even though she's a girl and that's not her place.
>> No. 115192
>>115191

Kya wasn't a waterbender. Canon!Katara just sorta taught herself.
>> No. 115194
>>115192
Shit, my mistake. It slipped my mind for some reason.
>> No. 115196
>>115191
The Southern Tribe was far less strict in it's enforcing of gender roles than the North, Kanna ran away their to avoid being forced to marry and Hama was seen openly using aggressive waterbending with other female warriors in her flashbacks. With Kataro, seeing as there's nobody to teach him any bending style, it may have been decided that he spends at least some of his time around the village's non-bending healers to try and awaken that side of his abilities which would be priceless in the small village and suit his caring character.
With Sokkara, I'd imagine she'd challenge gender perception if there was something in it for her. As Hakoda's daughter, the village would likely allow her to train as a warrior if it was something she showed promise in and their small settlement is so far removed from the North's influence I don't think there'd really be any objection. She'd still probably think of herself as the Mom of the group but unlike Katara, would lack the homemaking skills and nurturing spirit to go with it.
>> No. 115209
>>115191
He'd want to learn healing because he's shown a knack for it earlier, even doin it subconsciously when it's supposed to be a fairly difficult technique.

>>115196
I think Sokkara would be a girl who'd love to be feminine and pretty and demure, but is stuck with the same personality Sokka has, so that sort of thing escapes her. On top of that, as the eldest child of the chief when the younger son is a gentle soul, I can see Hadoka choosing to train her as a warrior for the good of the village.
>> No. 115210
>>115047
Never much understood that speculation. It's true that, prior to Zuko's daughter, there was no evidence of a female Fire Lord, but thee's also no evidence of a female being the eldest child at the time of their inheritance.

That said, if you're going to have Zuka still be scarred and banished, then it would make sense to have Zuka still be heir, otherwise to Ozai, banishing her would serve no purpose.
>> No. 115211
>>115210
That's why it's speculation and not taken as established fact. It's based on the idea that it would be quite unlikely for there to be no firstborn females across all those generations.
>> No. 115213
>>115211
Across the three generations we see, there's a 1 in 8 (1 in to 2 for Sozin, 1 in 2 for Iroh/Ozai, then 1 in 2 for Lu Ten/Zuko) chance for every male eldest child to be male, which in the grand scheme of things, isn't that unlikely. Certainly, it's happened in historic royal families.
>> No. 115214
>>115213
But every firelord from Sozin to Ozai has been male

...Err, weren't they? Maybe I have it wrong.
>> No. 115215
>>115213
1/16
You forgot Azulon
>> No. 115216
>>115214
>>115215
Oh yeah, my screw up.

And, since I also apparently forgot to mention it, it should be noted that the only born royalty we know of, excluding Azula, have all been male. Presuming that males take priority in the line of succession because four generations have been male doesn't make any sense when there isn't evidence of a female in those same generations.
>> No. 115219
The male line goes back further. Sozin's father and grandfather were both firelords before him; you can see their portraits in the royal gallery. Regardless, I concede that I am simply speculating. There is nothing that says in any manner that a boy is favored. Sorry, that was the fanon seeping in there for a moment.

Regarding Iroh's relationship with Zuka, that could be interesting. I mean, in canon, Iroh adopted Zuko as a substitute son after Lu Ten had died. How would he do with Zuka? Also important to note that we barely have any scenes of Iroh ever really interacting with Azula when they were kids; the doll he sent her can give evidence of him automatically assuming that is what a girl would like, but it could just as much be an evidence that he was never close enough to Azula to know what she actually wanted which is another story altogether.
>> No. 115220
>>115209
On the subject of Sokkara's feminity:
One of the character types I was playing around with for Sokka in the other thread, was that of the chatty, overstyled hairdresser type of woman.
An utterly opinionated and self-confident motormouth of a woman that loves to accessorize but tends to overdo everything in the process.
Maybe she even makes strange ointments and salves and are supposed to bring out the inner beauty, when she's not drawing up plans.

I have the mental image of Kataro returning to the camp after some errant or so, only to find Aang sitting there in some sort of seaweed based beauty mask as Sokkara does his nails.
>> No. 115554
>>115220
That sounds like a good characterization for Sokka's more exaggerated moments and ties in with Sokka's love of shopping nicely.
What's important for the characters is particularly in the moments that their gender is a defining factor; like for instance Sokka falling in love with Yue. Assuming Sokkara is straight, how do you make that plot as significant without the forbidden love aspect, because it removes Hahn as an obstacle and, later on, any hesitation with Suki if they're just friends.
>> No. 115560
>>115554
They can still be important friends that helped reveal or nurture a part of herself she may not have previously realised, people who understand her on a different level than the guys she's travelling with. If Yue was the first true friend she's ever had, when Yue gives up her mortal life to take the place of the moon spirit, that's still really sad.

It's also possible that the love plot can be shifted to Aang, whether or not Aang/Kataro is still endgame. A lot of scenes would be different but it might be cute. Also if she's still *someone's* girlfriend we can keep that "My girlfriend turned into the moon"/"That's rough, buddy" exchange with Zuka later on, and I personally would want to keep that because it's still funny several years later.

I guess it's also worth noting that during the siege on the North, Sokka was accepted to fight with the rest of the warriors and his advice saved them from being discovered and wiped out immediately. This role would probably be given to Kataro instead because he's a guy. If Sokkara managed to prove herself before that and Yue vouched for her, she might be able to come along too, but I don't remember that episode well enough to speculate how it would go with lone Kataro or both siblings.
>> No. 115562
Can I share an opinion? I really don't like the names of the gender-bent water siblings. I mean, Kataro? Sokkara? Those just sound really clunky and forced and I don't like how similar the vowels in each name sound.

If I were naming them, I'd go with Kato (short, punchy, sounds like Bato) and Somma (swap the hard K's for the soft M's).
>> No. 115563
>>115562
I was thinking of suggesting perhaps Kataraq as an alternative more in the style of Unalaq and Tonraq but Kato from Bato does a similar thing better.
Somma just sounds too much like Summer personally. There was an idea on /co/ for a while that she might just adopt the masculine "Sokka" as a nickname to tie into the warrior identity and only really go by Sokkara in more feminine environments.
>> No. 115565
>>115563
Kataraq is way too similar to "cataract."

Kotaro and Kato are both actual names. I was using Kotaro somewhere upthread but switched over because everybody else was saying it with two As. Sokka is really hard to morph into a female name that keeps the Water Tribe /k/ sound without it sounding too similar to Suki. There are some names like Misoka that still have Soka/Sokka in them but they change the pronounciation of the O from /ɔ/ (canon "Sokka") to /oʊ/ (awful movie "Soaka").
>> No. 115567
>>115565
It’s actually closer to the Portuguese word “catarata”, meaning “waterfall.”

As for appropriate Water Tribe names, look up traditional Inuit names. There’s Atka (goddess of fertility), Kesuk (water), Malina (goddess of the sun), Sakari (sweet)… the list goes on.
>> No. 115570
>>115567
I don't think... you get it... the point is to keep the sames similar looking and sounding so that we can tell who the original character is by the name alone. Also I really doubt anyone is going to think of a Portuguese word before a common-enough English word...
>> No. 115572
>>115565
> Kataraq is way too similar to "cataract."
Ha, I'm surprised I didn't notice that
Like I said, I think Kato is a good alternative. Kataro does strike me as a little too obvious, though I don't have the same hang ups for Sokkara, it's preferable to "Sokki" or "Sakka".
>> No. 115574
>>115562
I like Sokkara. I will agree that Kataro/Kotaro could be better, though.
>> No. 115583
>>115572
My only problem with Kato is that it's super Japanese-sounding to me. You can reverse the vowels and get Kota, though, which is a name in Japanese but also several Native American languages, and it fits better with the other WT names.

Sakka's the best one I've heard for Sokka yet I think. Sokkara's too obviously Katara's suffix mashed onto the end of Sokka's name. I guess if you wanted to do that then you could go with Sorra but that's too similar to Korra...
>> No. 115659
>>115216
>>115215
>>115213

In "The Avatar and The Fire Lord" we see the portraits of the two Fire Lords previous to Sozin who were both male.
So across 6 generations (Sozin's Grandfather to Zuko/Lu Ten's generation) there is a 1/64 (1.5625%) chance of all the firstborns being male.
Which, to me, suggests that males are preferred for the position of Fire Lord.
>> No. 115660
>>115659
>So across 6 generations
Stop! You cannot include Zuko and Ozai's generations in that probability as we know for a fact neither of them did not have an older sister over who they could be preferred. The odds that there has not been an unmentioned firstborn daughter who was skipped over by Azulon, Sozin, Sozin's father, or Sozin's grandfather are 1/16, not 1/64.
>> No. 115665
Remember that taky bag Sokka bought?
I want his female counterpart to lug one around from the very beginning.
Probably fur lined since it's from the south pole and more feminine looking.
But that's where Sokka, in true female fashion, keeps ALL her stuff.
Make-up, maps, war paint, salves, snacks, boomerang, keepsakes and everything else that might come in handy.
Also at least one scene, where she beats someone over the head with it for lack of a better weapon.
>> No. 115666
>>115565
Cataract means waterfall too, is it appropiate?
>> No. 115667
Genderbents Ozai/Ursa as well, with the FN as a matriarchy.
>> No. 115670
>>115665
it's perfect

>>115666
ok, the thing is: which meaning will virtually 100% of the people reading this think of: clouded eye lens, or waterfall. i know a "cataract" can be a waterfall but that is an archaic and very obscure (no pun intended) word that nobody today uses in daily conversation. they will instead think of why their grandma needed to get eye surgery. "i went on a vacation to see the cataract at niagara" is bordering on nonsense. do u understand
>> No. 117048
>>115001
Someone in the Fire Nation makes more sense.
The thing about Zuko speaking out in the war meeting was that his outburst was completely selfless, he wasn't going to be one of those soldiers that were to be canon fodder so if fem-Zuko's backstory is going to contain a marriage, her objection can't just be on the grounds of "I don't want to marry him."
So, maybe there's some sort of lord or influential figure in one of the Fire Nation's outer reaches or colonies who Ozai doesn't thing is pulling his weight towards the war effort for whatever reason and Ozai is using the wedding as a means of getting his family and followers in one place so that he can basically Red Wedding them and replace them with somebody more ruthless and reliable. Fem-Zuko is horrified (and maybe has a friend in that family at the Royal Academy for Girls) and ends up scuppering the plans to Ozai's annoyance, then gets burned.
>> No. 117050
Reposting my favourite part of the 4chan thread:

>Well wouldn't wanna be Ozai.
>>destroy his empire
>>thwart his plans
>> take his bending
>> then fuck his daughter
>Most likely even on his throne.
>Damn, Aang
>> No. 117054
>>117050
This punishment is truly fitting.
There is no eventuality in this universe in which Zukaang does not happen.
>> No. 117057
>>117054
It's just such a wonderful way to add insult to injury.
Of course Aang would remain courtly about it, the public would soon start running their mouths on the whole matter.
Hell, Zuka might take it in better humour than he would.
>What's the matter, Avatar? Is it not true that I surrendered more than the country to you and we took the negotiations to the bedroom?
>I just think it's in bad taste.
>> No. 117065
>>117057
If that's the case, I can see Zuka being more happy to joke around like that with Aang but she'd get a bit self-conscious and flustered when other people teased them. The Search would give Ursa her first chance of weighing up her daughter's boyfriend and embarrass her by asking if she had plans to become a Mother herself one day while Aang worries about making a good impression and whether or not the Avatar is even allowed to date the Fire Lord.
>> No. 117068
>>117065
I'm gonna bet dollars to donuts that Sokka had something to do with that story taking off.
>Don't get me wrong, he's cute. Not Turn-on-your-homeland cute, but I guess you take what you can get.
>You are mistaken. It was my decision and mine alone.
>And his big brown eyes had nothing to do with it?
>They're grey actually.
>A-HA!
>L-look I won't deny that he had a part in bringing me around-
>Yes, but did he bring you round and round, if you get what I'm saying?
>...I don't understand
>Oh yes, you do. If I was gonna antagonize my dad, it'd be for a boy who knows his way around a-
>ENOUGH! I will stop talking to you! You're just horrible!
>That's cold, sister. Come on, I was just messing with you.
>> No. 117069
>>117068
And no doubt she'd let Zuka know that Aang (probably) had a thing for her in the first few months of their journey before going off to interrogate about his "abilities".
Although, outside of the ribbing, Sokka and Zuka would get on well. They still went through the Boiling Rock together with Suki, like some sort of bizarre Charlie's Angels.
>> No. 117072
File 139859357860.jpg - (272.80KB , 407x576 , womensprisonmassacredvd.jpg )
117072
>>117069
Oh god. The Boiling Rock would kinda become like one of those sleazy "Women in Prison" films, at least for a while. I expect atleast one shower scene.

>"Maybe I should flirt with one of the guards. You should too, that'll double our chances."
>"But the guards are all women here!"
>Sokka grabs Zuka's face and looks her in the eyes
>"You really are too pure for this world!"
>A female guard walks by and throws them a glance
>"Get a room, dykes!"
>> No. 117073
>>117072
I'm just worried how Hakoda will hold up on the zeppelin to the Air Temple after spending weeks in Fire Nation holding and suddenly finding himself alone with his overjoyed and enthusiastic daughter, the shy and awkward teenage princess of the Fire Nation and the prime physical specimen that is the leader of the Kyoshi Warriors, all ready to celebrate after their big prison bust wearing either prison rags or whatever it is Fire Nation guards have on underneath their heavy armor.
A lot of sitting down and leaning forward, I imagine.
>> No. 117079
>>114953
I feel as though the disparity between Ozai's attention towards Zuka and Azulon would be even greater than that between Zuko and Azula simply because Azulon, as a boy, would more greatly Ozai's narcissistic reflection of himself.
Azulon projecting both his need of a nurturing figure AND his resentment towards Ursa's absence onto Zuka is some really meaty stuff. I love the idea of Azulon emotionally blackmailing Zuka to stay with him, care for him and dote on him with that "If you're not here, I might go off the deep end" bullshit.
>> No. 117087
>>117079
Agreed.
I also think the gender reversal makes the roles of Katara and Sokka more interesting. Because Kato or Kataro or whatever would still be the team mom, while Sokka's aloofness would translate into some kind of responsibility-shy party gal. In fact Sokka would dodge most of the conflicts Katara got into, because she wouldn't want to get involved.
Take the northern Watertribe. She wouldn't change the system, rather she'd run along with it until it gets in her way and then find a loophole or simply ignore it. Whichever is less work.
Pakku would blow a gasket with her around.
>> No. 117089
>>117087
Yeah, Sokka's an obvious opportunistic counter-balance to Katara's idealism. Still loyal and courageous but very pragmatic and adaptive, ie., his sexism wasn't something he was commited to, it was just his way of explaining the world based on his observations and it benefited him as a quick answer to whatever he and Katara might be arguing about. As soon as he saw some evidence that countered his view and Katara developed some independence, he quickly dropped it and adapted himself accordingly.
As a replacement to that, F-Sokka might adapt a more blatant "Brothers in Arms" identity, seeing as she can't latch on to her gender as an explanation for why she sees herself as M-Katara's physical protection, she could use her prefession instead.
This leads into the meeting on Kyoshi island but instead of Sokka's mascunlinity which is hurt, it's her belief in her identiy as a warrior (which overlaps in normal-Sokka's case but here the warrior-ness would be empthasised) which would make the Sokka's eventual realization that she isn't as formidable as her teammates or as she believed she was all the more heart-breaking.
And at the North Pole, the repression of women wouldn't really bother her all that much. In fact, it could still be Kataro's story but from the other side if he's denied a chance to develop his healing abilities because he's a boy (I think it might already have been mentioned but Kataro spending time with the SWT's female healers from a young age in an effort to awaken his healing powers, which the tribe would benefit from immensely, would work as an explanation as to why he was so close to Kya and didn't go through Warrior training) and Sokka(ra) would only become superficially outraged at the status quo once she's denied becoming Yue's bodyguard, just because she's a girl.
And on Yue, I think without the mutual attraction to lower their defences, I would not be entirely against Sokka and Suki leaving eachother on bad terms after their first encounter on Kyoshi Island. Only because I think it would make Yue and Sokka's position as eachother's first female friend less poignant if Sokka had already become buddies with Suki, plus, it could be fun to see the 2 warrior girls reluctantly come around to the idea that they actually enjoy eachother's company at The Serpent's Pass.
>> No. 117090
>>117089
So really to sum Sokka's stance up:
>I should be allowed to do whatever a man does. Because I'm awesome.
In fact she'd probably hold onto the predefined gender models otherwise, like snorting about how the Kyoshi Warriors are probably just frustrated because they can't find any men. Or belittling Kataro for cooking and sewing, despite the fact that he only learned it because she half-asses the stuff she has no passion for.

While tomboyish, rude, crude and always ready for a scrap, she's also got that deluded self-image of being a classy lady on the inside and people should really treat her better.
>> No. 117102
>I should be allowed to do whatever a man does. Because I'm awesome.
That does sum her up and yeah, she also thinks she incredible at traditionally feminine things simply because she's a girl. At the start of Team Avatar's journey, she wouldn't believe that Kataro was capable of pooking after himself (preparing meals, sewing torn clothes) because he's a boy and she'd insist that they eat her crappy food and wear her amateurish patchwork. Eventually, she'd come to accept Kataro's place as Team Mom as Sokka came to accept that girls can fight.
Sokka's belief that she's also the perfect woman as well as the perfect warrior would also show up whenever she runs into a boy she likes, where she'd suddenly act like an attentive blushing rose, thinking that that's what all men want in a woman and trying to hide any signs of tomboyishness.
As for the Kyoshi Warriors, she'd probably see them as glorified girl scouts, perhaps mocking their geisha uniforms as too feminine for combat and taking it as a sign that they aren't proper fighters.
>> No. 117107
>>117102
>where she'd suddenly act like an attentive blushing rose, thinking that that's what all men want in a woman and trying to hide any signs of tomboyishness.
That character basically writes itself.
There's a lot of laughs in the idea of Sokka trying to use her feminine wiles on a boy and failing miserably.
Then when she has to show her intelligence and down-to-earth attitude, she actually succeeds. But she never quite puts two and two together.
>> No. 117108
I have officially given up hope for /co/.

They seem to have went down the path of /v/ and should forever be ignored.

The day is lost.
>> No. 117109
>>117107
But the question is; which boys should she pull that act on?
Haru? Jet? Bato?
And they're all Book 1, there isn't as much of a revolving door of guys for her to go for in Avatar as there is girls.
>> No. 117110
Kataro might have been the the most loyal, committed friend in cartoon history.
Katara's perception of Aang as the world's only hope didn't have anything to do with her gender, so that would remain unchanged if she was a boy. He'd naturally see Aang more as a little brother than Katara did and make a fuss about him being safe due to how important he was (threatening his love interest if she even thought about betraying him, anyone?) but Kataro would also have a fantastic admiration of Aang and his wisdom.
Obviously, the homoshipping would be ridiculous but that's par for the course.
>> No. 117113
>>117109
Jet could be an early example.
She'd swoon over him and play the dummy and he'd enjoy the attention
I'd like to see his face when she deduces that he's up to no good and foils his plans.
Then latter, when they meet up in Ba Sing Se.
>Baby, I swear I changed!

Otherwise I think Sokka would just be a flirt in general. Some anon had a hilarious passage where she fluttered her eyelashes at a butcher to get a better price for provisions.
>You know I'd do anything for a good piece of meat
Cue Kataro looking at her with horror and disgust.

>>117110
Best bros ever. And yeah, more than a little gay.
Especially the scene where he tells Zuka to not go breaking Aang's heart or he'll break her neck...
>> No. 117122
>>117113
So how do you see Sokka and Jet's relationship?
I'm thinking he'd be fooled by her flirting act because he probably gets it a lot, whereas F-Sokka would be internally as distrusting as M-Sokka was, but Jet's hot, so she'd try and keep this good thing going as long as possible until he does something really horrible (ambushing that old man) at which point Sokka would reveal she's not as air-headed as she seemed, taking Jet by surprise and seeing her as a potential threat.
In Ba Sing Se, I don't know about Jet being so blatantly still infatuated with Sokka to shout "Baby, I've changed!", he's too collected for that. I do, however think that he'd enquire as to the possibility the TV-Y7 equivalent of one last roll in the hay, because who the Hell wouldn't?
After all that, whatever some Sokkara/Azulon teasing could be fun.

Also, how would Kataro be fixed for love interests?
>> No. 117127
>>117122
I mostly agree about Jet and Sokka. Though I think it might be fun if he was kinda hung up on her. Not so much for her looks or even her personality, but because she schooled him and left him with his pants down (proverbially).
If anyone can get away with a reference towards casual sex, it's Sokka, as we've seen. You could have a scene of her and Jet walking out of a room, straightening their clothing or something.

We have to consider that Azulan, is basically framed by two buxom henchwomen at all times. The 4chan thread also seemed to like the idea of making Ty Lee the abused housewife and emotional chewtoy for him, while Mai looks on in silent disgust.
But all things considered, I wouldn't put it past them to have a slightly flirtatious relationship. After all, Sokka always knew she was meant to be a Princess and Azulon wouldn't mind adding something exotic to his collection. Also >>114946 implies we could have Azulon disguised as a Kyoshi Warrior getting hit on by f!Sokka disguised as Wang Fire.
I support that idea.
>> No. 117128
>>117127
Maybe there is room for Sokka to be Jet's one that got away, in a sense that he doesn't really love her but the fact that she out maneuvered him (a guy whose sense of worth was built on manipulating the emotions of others, girls particularly) makes Sokka a much bigger prize in his eyes.
Still, even if it was eating him up inside, I don't think he'd let it blow his cool in front of everybody (it's not quite as big a deal as FIREBENDERS!) but he might wait for the opportunity where he could have Sokka one-on-one and then play his "I'm not all bad. I've changed. We we had was good. Give me another chance." schmaltz because in Jet's mind, if he can bed her then it means he's won and he's manipulated her and therefore, he's the better strategist.
Of course, Sokka isn't Katara, so she wouldn't hold as hard a grudge against somebody who tried to use her. You could end the scene regarding Jet's attempted seduction with Sokka looking disgusted or annoyed and cutaway to some other characters doing something else, then the next time we see Sokka and Jet, you see them leaving a room and patting themselves down, maybe silently nodding in acknowledgment to eachother and play it as a gag that would hopefully go over the kid's heads before they're called over to the rest of the Gaang as it bleeds into the next scene.
For 63Sokkla (Sokklon?), it's obviously something that could never be taken seriously but at the same time, Azulon's supposed to be a serious villain, so there aren't too many opportunities to show him interacting humorously with members of Team Avatar. Something akin to Azula's scene with Aang in The Chase, where she imitates Zuko would do nicely.
As a Prince, Azulon could possibly be more blatant about his sexuality. Azula wasn't a typical princess character by any means but there were still certain ways in which she was expected to carry herself. Princes are trained to become Fire Lords and Fire Lords are expected to be dominant, so perhaps something along the lines of Azulon threatening to chain Sokka up and take her back to the Palace as an attempt to intimidate her, with Sokka not appearing nearly as horrified as Azulon might expect would be funny. The Kyoshi!Azulon/Wang Fire idea is also too good to pass up, though it means bringing the introduction of Wang Fire forward (shouldn't be too hard to work out, Sokkara will likely run into some situation in which a man disguise would come in handy).
The Ty Lee/Azulon/Mai thing, I'm in two minds about. Part of me wants to see Azulon be in a horrible relationship with Ty Lee, in which Ty Lee keeps convincing herself that he only lashes out because he's troubled/overburdened and that things will get better once the war is over but there isn't much Mai can do to help with that. She can't tell Ty Lee to leave him because she can't, he's the damn Royal Prince so Mai's just sort of there not really doing anything. Though, it does put a cool twist on The Boiling Rock by having Mai betray Azulon to try and assure escape for Ty Lee but would Ty Lee even come? I don't know, that could be a pretty big divergence from canon.
Another part of me wants to see Azulon and Mai betrothed for political reasons (Ozai did seem rather fond of Mai's family) with Azulon accepting because he understands he has to wed and bear a child and knowing that it doesn't restrict him from being with other women so long as he doesn't cause a scandal and Mai submissively accepting because it's what her family told her to do. This puts a greater emphasis on Mai's growth towards breaking away from doing what's expected of her and doing what she wants (again, peaking at her betrayal of Azulon at The Boiling Rock). In this scenario, Ty Lee is brought into the mix through Azulon simply wanting her as a plaything and he openly flirts with her in front of Mai because he doesn't respect either of them and he's assured enough that they won't turn on him. You could even go further and make it an attempt from Azulon to keep the girls from getting too close by trying to instill some jealousy over himself between them but it backfires as Ty Lee and Mai are made too uncomfortably be his sleaziness and that's what unifies them against him.
I think there's potential in both scenarios.
>> No. 117129
>>117073

...Really?

>>117128

I really don't think being this dominant Alpha Wolf women-are-mine-to-deal-with is really Jet at all, though. His big beef was the Fire Nation/Firebenders, not being a boss that was above others. Jet did what he did because in his mind, it was just dues for the pain caused by the Fire Nation. Innocent or not, they were Fire Nation, Fire Nation killed his parents, so he was going to get revenge, it was never about being the leader of the Freedom Fighters, it was about the Freedom Fighters fighting the Fire Nation. I don't know how many other girls he had in his team, but he doesn't act like that around Smellerbee. Plus, he wasn't out to manipulate Katara, he had found a pretty girl who was fighting on his side of the war, and shared his pain. What screwed them up was that she didn't share his anger or lack of discretion towards the Fire Nation as a whole.

I'm also a little loathe to turn Azula's male counterpart into some sort of wife-beater. Azula actually did enjoy Ty Lee's friendship, and leaving aside the part where she got her to join via coercion, otherwise didn't treat her like less of a person.

Plus, Azula's/Alulon Jr's 14, goddamn..
>> No. 117130
>>117129
Yeah, I'm not convinced myself about some of the Jet stuff, like I said, I don't see him as being too obsessed over Sokka so late on (maybe still interested/attracted but not madly). It's largely a theoretical interpretation of what might happen if somebody was to get under his skin like that, the difference from M-Sokka was that F-Sokka wasn't blatant in her distrust right away and that being fooled like that could have unearthed some insecurities that may or may not have been present in Jet. The closest we've seen to this situation with Jet is Zuko and Iroh fooling him that they weren't firebenders and he took that very much to heart, though of course that ties in to his history with the Fire Nation. Potentially, there was more at play to do with his ego but it's very much down to interpretation and it's not necessarily a definative portrayal of Jet.
As for Azulon, I'm not sure what his age really has to do with it. The most adult thing I put was about chaining Sokka up, which was vaguely worded and being engaged to Mai (Azula getting engaged was a discussed potential plot in ATLA) there's nothing overtly sexual, just that he'd be more macho and less subtle than Azula. If Azula was put in a position where she thought it was advantageous to try and manipulate a boy's feelings I wouldn't think that was beyond her and if Azula spent any significant amount of screentime with two viable partners rather than two girls and members of her own family, I think that relationships with her would be explored but Azula was abusive and intimidating and her friends did not trust her and that would likely only be catalyzed if romantic ties were involved.
>> No. 117131
>>117130
Lets not forget that Azula also kept Mai and Ty Lee in line via bullying and subtle threats. And in a male version, you probably couldn't help but see some sexual undertones there.
Ty Lee being kinda in love with him is a given, after all she had nothing but admiration for Azula, so she'd be smitten with the male version.

As for the idea of a betrothal:
I think it could be nice, but it also might open up a can of worms. I just don't see Azulon being the type to bring his bride-to-be Avatarhunting.
>> No. 117133
>>117131
Unless he was trying to get her killed in the line of duty so that he could pursue some other option without losing the political clout that would come from the arranged marriage.
>> No. 117134
>>117133
Maybe it'd be better to just let the prospect of marriage hang in the air as a threat to Mai and a way to torment Ty Lee a little more.

>Don't be silly, Ty Lee. My father would want me to marry into an influential family. One who'd further his goals, with key positions in the Fire Nation. Take Mai for instance. She'd be a good match.
And when Ty Lee gets visibly upset he swings around and says how boring it'd be to be married to such a dour person, as opposed to her. It's really too bad
>> No. 117135
>>117131
Hmm... I hadn't thought about that.
If Azulon didn't just once Mai along for her knife skills I'd think that at least her social-climber parents would want to push Mai to spend as much time with the Prince as possible in order to make a good impression.
Azulon would know what they were angling and likely butter them up, describing how beautiful Mai was and how much he'd missed her companionship. Mai would just sit in silence, caught between Azulon's insincere flattery and her parent's glee before resigning to her fate and bluntly asking "Can we go already?"

>>117133
Ha! I definitely hadn't considered that. Presumably the arrangement would have Ozai's consent. I don't think he'd be best pleased if Mai got killed.
>> No. 117138
>>117134
Would it be too on the nose for Azulon to bring up Ty Lee's running away to the circus (ie. her attempt to establish a distinct identity and independence) as a reason she isn't as suitable a bride as Mai?
>> No. 117155
>>117138
Nah, I think with Azulon there is no such thing as "too on the nose". He'd be pretty quick to remind both girls of their shortcomings.

Zuka would get marginally better treatment compared to Mai and Ty Lee. Since he wants to keep her around as a surrogate mom.
I also noticed that he'd surround himself exclusively with female figures, which puts an even bigger exclamation point on his mommy issues.

Maybe his ideal scenario is to marry Mai, keep Ty Lee on hand as a mistress, but spend the bulk of his time with his dear sister doting on him.
>> No. 117158
>>117155
>Maybe his ideal scenario is to marry Mai, keep Ty Lee on hand as a mistress, but spend the bulk of his time with his dear sister doting on him.

A bit unrelated, but I think there's actually a theory in psychology or sociology or something that states that a man with multiple active partners can only maintain a close bond with up to three and that he'll categorize them into one of the three, sort of, aspects of sex; one woman for pleasure, one for procreation and one for companionship/romantic love. I don't know how valid it is but I've certainly heard it somewhere.
I suppose for Azulon you could tone it down so that Ty Lee exists to please him and provides the closest think he has to fun rather than just sexual pleasure, Mai provides marriage as a stand in for procreation and Zuka is there to care for him in stead of romance, in Azulon's ideal world, anyway.
I think for Azulon treating Zuka better it would largely be due to her obviously being at a higher station than Ty Lee and Mai, so he couldn't quite get away with as much with Zuka but also because she reminds him most of his Mother, he's most fearful of losing her because it would be like losing Ursa again and even though he hates his Mom, part of him recognizes how much her absence messed him up.
That could actually work as a bigger lead in to Azulon's breakdown than Mai and Ty Lee's was for Azula. When Zuka joins Team Avatar, Azulon loses his Mother figure twice, and having him start to snap earlier could be the impetus for Ty Lee to finally lose her love for him and leave with Mai at the Boiling Rock.
Or maybe not, I'm spitballing a lot. Azulon's a fun character.
>> No. 117159
Another thing to consider with Azulon is that, while Azula was considered a ruthless prodigy by the Fire Nation at large, he might have a more foppish and effeminate reputation with military officers and more common folk at least, considering his refined looks and his surrounding himself with women.
>> No. 117160
>>117159

I feel I should point out that women aren't really 100% secondary in the Fire Nation military. It's canon that the army is trained by women Firebenders, and that women make up a good deal of the Domestic army that stays at home to guard the Fire Nation while the rest of the men are usually the overseas force. Plus, Ozai, the ruler of the country, entrusted hunting down the traitor/failure royal family members and the Avatar to his daughter, the second born.

I'm just not of the opinion that we shouldn't really be pushing a sexism angle with the Fire Nation characters, it wasn't present in the original show, and it feels cliche to try and tack it on.
>> No. 117163
>>117159
>>117160
Yeah, I don't think the Fire Nation would view Azulon as effeminate for keeping exclusively female company. Hell, that's what Zuko did in his time in the Fire Nation and his reputation was far from stellar but I never got the sense he was seen as effeminate. Plus, Ozai never struck me as Mr. Macho Masculine, so I'm not sure Azulon would be regarded as anything particularly odd (for the Fire Nation Royal Family at least).
At the most, I think they'd see a young prince surrounding himself with highborn daughters as an available, desirable, teenage boy who's simply exercising his influence, perhaps a bit of a playboy reputation but even then, it's not like he's having Mai and Ty Lee bellydance and feed him grapes, they are actually getting stuff done.
I think Col. Gaddaffi had an all female personal bodyguard, perhaps that's a good parallel I'm kidding
Either way, I wouldn't want to get rid of Azula's formidable reputation among the military because she's changed into a boy, the fear and intimidation is something that should be true to Azula in any interpretation.
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