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No. 223565
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>>223551
>>223552
>>223553
Good grief, this never ends, does it?
>>223539
>I think it should be pointed out that in the old continuity, the comic approached Sonic joining the Freedom Fighters as both him joining a bunch of strangers and becoming their friends just before the story actually started and also from the angle of him having been their friends since he was a kid.
>Nothing has changed with the new continuity, we just don't know how he met them, and we're getting that answer next month.
What do you mean "Nothing has changed". Of course it's fucking changed. The circumstances are literally different.
Sonic now wasn't friends with the FF when he was a kid. He hasn't been battling with the FF since the story "started" (Sonic 1), and he may not even had a hand in forming the Freedom Fighters, since they could easily be a pre-existing group in this universe, who Sonic and Tails just join for the hell of it.
It's basically the opposite of "Nothing has changed".
>Sonic hangs with the FFs because they're his buds and he loves saving the world. It's the same reason he hangs out with Knuckles these days, they go looking for trouble because that's just how they are.
Yes we have been over this.
This conversation is NOT about IF Sonic, in this new continuity, is deep friends with the FF.
Nobody has asserted otherwise. Not once.
This conversation is about (but not entirely about) WHY Sonic is deep friends with the FF in this new continuity, if they have no damn history together. (And that is not a literal statement, geniuses, I have been saying from the start that 90% of the comics history has been lost, or in other words about 10% of the comics history has been retained.)
It makes sense for Sonic to hang out with Knuckles. Canon wise he has a deep history with him, a friendly rivalry, that exists in REAL LIFE, since you can go play the games, and experience it.
Of course, the incredibly dumb counterpoint you guys have been pushing, is that we should use our ~I M A G I N A T I O N~ to "fill in the blacks" regarding what Sonic and the FF have been up between canon games (in replacement of the stories we lost), in order to constructs a prequel fanfiction of sorts where it makes sense for Sonic to currently have a deep relationship with the FF on par with say Knuckles, in the new timeline.
And of course, as a SEPERATE argument I've suggested, that it would have been better for the comics' narrative/plot, for the ease of access for new readers and better pacing, that the 252 universe simply started with Sonic meeting the FF for the first time.
>Not PG, but...yeah. Pretty much. He has no better reason to help them at the beginning than he does later on. Sonic just DOES shit like this. Look at Secret Rings, Black Knight, Colors, etc. Sonic likes getting into fights and wrecking Eggman's stuff.
That's just blatantly wrong. Firstly, you're misrepresenting Sonic's character. You're pointing to games that support MY position. Games that exemplify how Sonic is a free spirit, a radical, someone who doesn't take orders and will do what he feels is right.
All personality aspects that conflict with Sonic being part of a dedicated organization where he's simply the brute force and someone else drives him.
It still made sense, at the brining of Archie Sonic, for Sonic to be part the Freedom Fighters in the old continuity, from the start. For in universe reasons (there was a specific threat, he had a crush on a girl) and out of universe reasons (it was a blank slate, comedy based, etc).
But, later in the comic, when Robotnik was dead, the Freedom Fighters had finished their goals, saved Sally's Dad, etc etc
It stopped making so much sense that Sonic was still a Freedom Fighter, personality wise, for in universe reasons (no objectives like Sally's Dad, just perpetually battling Eggman as a reaction to his shit) and out of universe reasons (the games actually had a huge canon now, and Sonic had plenty game friends as big as the FF).
Yet it still had a reasonable basis for being that way, because Sonic relationship with them HAD grown, they were family.
>He hangs out with people because he becomes their friend or they're involved with an adventure. It wouldn't be a stretch to say Sonic's known the FFs about as long as he's known Knuckles or the Chaotix in this continuity, so there's no reason to question why he'd hang with the single most dedicated group to taking down Eggman in the entire planet.
And this part is part relates back to all the previous arguments I've outlined here.
-Asking the audience to invent a fake, headcanon history for the new FF to fill in the gaps (which is almost their entire history now)
-Misrepresenting Sonic's personality as someone who is drawn to being a cog in a team proactively hunting down Eggman, instead of reacting to Eggman's plans.
-Presuming that it makes sense that Sonic would choose to hang out with the FF regardless of if they are friends or not, cause they're the most after Eggman (like seriously, under that logic he'd might as well join Shadow with GUN.)
It comes down to you holding a LOT of misconceptions.
>(I wrote) We know Endgame didn't happen, so the first 50 issues of the comic can basically be written off.
>This was already explained to you. Specific events not happening =/= all events previous did not happen.
As it relates back to the first 50 issues? The issues that were dubiously canon under the old timeline? Oh yeah, I'm sure new252!Sonic battled the Universalamander...
But this broader statement, I refer back to my "I have been saying from the start that 90% of the comics history has been lost, or in other words about 10% of the comics history has been retained"
>Eggman still tricked King Max, but your argument would tell us that this OBVIOUSLY didn't happen since issue 43 can't be possible.
>You're implying that near approximations of events can't happen even though that's already been confirmed to be a thing with TTT (certain events from TTT are impossible to occur in the new continuity, but all of the relevant characters remember it even without any sort of memory tampering).
And this is the 10%, the slim slim pickings from the old continuity (most of which don't even related the FF anyway) that managed to make the cut. I'm surprised you didn't mention Ant and Bun's wedding too.
Don't you try to tell me these crumbs of canon are equivalent to the mountain of canon lost to the reboot. That's just a insult to the intelligence to anybody reading here.
It's piss poor justification for Sonic still regarding the FF exactly the same, and under any scrutiny terrible a endorsement of their actual relevance to the modern comic. I like the FF but in this new timeline they might as well not existed at all.
>Shit, what's there to say that the Enerjak thing didn't happen but Knuckles was turned into a brainwashed Hyper Knuckles? It's the same story, the big difference is the names of certain items and characters involved.
This is what I call grasping at straws.
A hyper-creative reimagining of events that distorts the original premise so far as to be unrecognizable, or falls apart under the lightest scrutiny.
I honestly can't relate to how people could advocate hyper Brainwashed KnucklesJak, and all of the canon breaking, impossible implications that arise from it. That are also game purists saying it's a sin to change a even tiny element from the games. It's a mind-blowing contortion of logic.
>You're making tons of assumptions and stating that it's factually impossible for Sonic to have relationships with other characters simply because things didn't happen
exactly the same way they did before.
Misrepresentation of what I've said, see above for answers.
>That's kind of ridiculous. I'd continue to explain the problems with your argument, but when you're making crazy assumptions like "The Freedom Fighters were never involved with anything" just because Antoine and Bunnie didn't fight Perfect Chaos, I think I might be better off just assuming you're an idiot.
Likewise, when you completely ignore my argument, just reverberating the same flawed excuses and failed arguments like a ritualistic chant or religious dogma, I'm inclined to say you're an idiot.
>>223547
>Woah, calm down. I think if we're both claiming the other's ignoring our posts, then we're both probably missing something here.
There appears to be a communication problem here, so I've endeavoured to making myself clear and simple.
>Everything I said is based on something we've seen. 252 showed Eggman still tricking the King, and Origins is heavily implied to be showing how Sonic started banding together with the FFs in this world.
This is the 10%, the remnants of 90% you can't reasonably justify this as being an equivalent trade off. And please don't make PG's mistake of assuming that for every comic lost of the old timeline, there is some sort of substitute hypothetical comic that replaces it so it all evens out. That's just a fallacy.
>We won't know the exact details until it's out, but it's pretty reasonable to assume from that and the way they acted to each other before getting the memories that they're friends here too. That's why I think it's silly to believe they aren't friends or have no reason to work together.
Nobody's arguing they aren't friends in this timeline. It's the theoretical basis for this friendship that's up for dispute. The relevance they have to Sonic and the timeline now that they have been relegated to the B-team who Sonic only possibly hangs out with while he's not on a game adventure. (And considering all the games adventures he's been on, and that they all take place in a year, that's got to be a pretty slim amount of quality time...)
>The friends with the FF at #0 and in the start of SatAM thing is just there to show that this isn't the first time where we're seeing them start off as friends and then learn the why later.
This point, as I've addressed before, is undermined because they are not starting off in equivalent situations from Satam or Issue 0. Hell, even the core truth of such a statement undermined because Sonic does not have the same level of relationship with all the FF now as he did at the start. Ant for obvious example, Sonic could hardly be called his friend.
And any suggestion that they were as deep a relationship back then or in satam with any of the characters is just hollow. Through their trials and adventures they've grown together.
I understand this is a hard point to covey, it touches onto many point and is hard to wrap your head around the whole thing, but please bare with me
>>223547
Not sure if crazy or just stupid, but the fact that we don't know the history of how Sanic became friends with the furry fucks doesn't invalidate the fact that he's friends with them. It just means we don't know what happened between then and now.
I've addressed this quite thoroughly in this post so please save me the trouble and just above where applicable.
>That and the comic was always portraying them as BFFs without even fucking knowing each other previously. Shit, everyone knew everything about Bunnie by the time she made her second appearance, like she had been there all along.
That is literally wrong. Factually incorrect. If you honestly believe that then you need to re-read the comics to reacquaint yourself with the canon.
I mean, a statement like saying Bunnie's relationship with Sonic and has stagnated after one issue for 250 issues is just one of sheer absurdity.
>(I wrote) He was telling the audience that the past games happened exactly as the happened in the games.
>Or he was telling the audience that Adventure didn't happen like the old Archie Sonic Adventure adaptation. If he was just white-washing them out of all the games why is he even bothering with incorporating them into Unleashed or revisiting it at all?
Why Flynn is even bothering with incorporating them into Unleashed is a pretty valid question.
We know the real world reasons, they're popular with the fans, they're a good writer tool to do stuff game characters are banned from doing. But their internal relevance to the modern comic is the crux of this entire argument.
>Rotor didn't even do anything during Sonic Adventure the first time around, so why does the fact that how those two characters play into the story was altered mean that those characters have no role in any adaptations ever?
I really don't want to argue this technicality, it's such a distraction from the reality this new comic faces.
The direction of the comic has been sliding to game fidelity for years, Flynn is still setting up a new universe, he's not dedicating pages to inconsequential fluff, like Ant and Bunnie not appearing in Adventures if it doesn't have the implicit further reaching ramifications of telling the audience that now the games are 100% accurate. If he wanted to just say the original Adventures adaption was non canon he could have had anyone say in one panel "Wow, this is not how I remember it!". It was a deliberate choice. So can we please not ignore the elephant in the room.
>Why is your reading more valid than mine? Why do you seem to assume that only you can peer into Ian's mind and tell exactly what he's trying to express?
Oh come on, this isn't a interpretive dance, it's a cold hard reading of what's going on in this comic by analysing all the facts we have on hand. My reading had validity because I've weighed up all the evidence, I've constructed a compelling case, and exposed flaws in the alternative options. Occam's razor. I'm arguing the case with the most likelihood, not the technicality that might sound pleasant on paper.
This is nothing personally against you, even though I might be rude, I'm just trying to cut through all the fourm bullshit and talk about the comic in real terms.
tl;dr This is too much fucking writing.
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