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News
  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

File 139119374015.jpg - (650.12KB , 751x1126 , 1391105742875.jpg )
222793 No. 222793
Previously! On Archie General: >>221521

>Sperging over not calling Mobius Mobius
>Trying to propose Sega Sonic actually has a canon
>THINK OF THE POOR WIKI
>Some kind of shark girl!
>Penders says things on twitter worthy of a screencap
>That wily Mav is up to his old tricks
>I'm pretty sure he was the one that used the phrase "Sega apologist".
>Holy crap it's almost X time.
>HOLY CRAP there's a crossover coming what the fuuuuuu-

And now, the conclusion.
187 posts omitted. Last 50 shown. Expand all images
>> No. 223417
>>223416
Why not spell out what's happening in >>223388 so those of us not experienced in comic editing know what it means.
>> No. 223420
>>223417
It has nothing to do with editing. It's a matter of seeing two planes named "Tornado" and "Twister" and assuming they're named after rollercoasters, and not that the rollercoasters and planes are both named for the weather phenomena.
>> No. 223421
>>223420
Nobody saying they're not also weather phenomahna, but when you see both mentioned at once you think rollercoaster.
>> No. 223425
>>223421
honestly no more than I hear "milk" and "gin" in the same sentence and think LGBT American politicians, buddy
>> No. 223426
>>223421
You do? News to me.
>> No. 223427
>>223421
carnie plz
>> No. 223431
>>223421
I want Roller Coaster Tycoon addicts to leave +/co/.
Truly they are poisoning our insightful and meaningful discussion of whether Sanic's arms should be tan or blue and just how thoroughly X will kill the Classic book.
>> No. 223433
I seriously think I'm on the verge of joining Ian's forum simply to protest the absolutely crazy and ridiculously inefficient ideas people are pitching around for fixing the Wiki's continuity problem. Nobody actually pays attention to talk pages or discussions on the wiki itself and the guys at BK are honestly considering things as crazy as making two articles for every character that still exists instead of separating their histories into different pages or something, as if the wiki isn't cluttered with redundant articles as it is.
>> No. 223435
>>223433

Why not just update the characters that are still around with new info and update the old ones to where they were left off?
>> No. 223436
>>223435
>Too much clutter
>Not muh continuity
>Everything not new is useless

Keeping things as they are is going to make everyone upset, but the best option according to most people is to just make MORE articles and fill them with more useless data instead of actually looking for efficient solutions. Character pages aren't supposed to contain a synopsis of every single event the character ever participated in, but don't tell them that.
>> No. 223444
So, event wise, in the new 252 what has Sonic actually done with the Freedom Fighters?

We know Endgame didn't happen, so the first 50 issues of the comic can basically be written off.
We know Sally didn't get robotized so the events since 225 didn't happen.
Antoine and Bunnie basically confirmed that the Freedom Fighters didn't appear in the game adaptions of this universe.
The Free Comic Book day story appears to remove the possibility that Sonic knew them from his childhood.
Penders events certainly didn't happen.
And all the events with characters that don't exist i.e Mogul, Iron Queen, Enerjak can't have happened.

So, uh, what can they have done together? It's starting to feel like Sonic has barely any reason to be hanging out with these guys. They have no significant history left.
>> No. 223446
>>223444

Spinball.
>> No. 223447
>>223444
So, because certain awful, shitty things didn't happen to the characters, that means they've never interacted before. Kay.
>> No. 223449
I think the problem with the Wiki(s) is that people don't understand how they should be organized/formatted. Someone a thread or two ago pointed to a page for Sonic himself, which was a short novel as written by Tolstoy.

The point of a Wiki page is to straddle the line between brief and descriptive, providing enough about something/one as a leaping point but not going into heavy detail in their life. A Wiki is not a collection of in-depth biographies and should not contain every little nuance about someone.

In fact, here's Sonic's page on the archiesonic wikia: http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog Let's look at the section titled "The Iron Dominion"; the opening sentences are:
>Later, when a concert was held to celebrate Eggman's defeat, Sally escorted Sonic to the Colosseum, where Mina's band were playing. Sally noticed that Sonic wasn't enjoying himself, and Sonic told her his thoughts on Eggman's breakdown after his defeat. Sally replied that Sonic should focus on the concert for the moment and enjoy himself.
This is completely and utterly worthless. It's good as part of the issue it comes from, and might be good as part of the article for a synopsis of the issue (though I'd argue that's still too much detail), but horrible for what is intended to be an overview of the character. Considering that the series is almost entirely about him, it might even be more prudent to just have a few paragraphs about general information and then lists of his various major events that would go to other Wiki articles about those events directly. Trying to do any more than that will just lead to discussing everything that ever happened in the comic. So the sections for him would be:
>Early Life
>Major Events
Which would be a list of the game changers, like formation of the Freedom Fighters, End Game, Xorda, Super Genesis Wave, with one or two sentences per item as a super-brief synopsis with a link to the more detailed article.
>Abilities
>Personality
>Important Associates
There's a better term for this, I'm sure.
>>Family
>>Friends
>>Relationships (?)

>>223433
>making two articles for every character that still exists
This is fine when the characters/places didn't cross the Wave (either they weren't part of the event or they didn't get their memories restored by Nicole.) We're not far in so we've only seen a small recurring cast in the comic, but look at the planet: not only has the name been dropped but major locations/areas have shifted, so it would get two entries:
>Mobius
>Sonic's World

But for more minor characters, I agree. Assuming Mina exists post-Wave, her part is likely still extremely minor, so she would have one article with a pre-Wave and post-Wave history. Characters like King Acorn may be better served by having only one, since so far he's only been a bit character post-Wave; however, if his role in the comic expands, it may become prudent to split him into two articles. There are certain characters that will likely have moderate roles, like Muttski and Uncle Chuck, where we may as well get a new article started now.
>> No. 223451
>Omochao is apparently part of the Freedom Fighters now
SHUT UP OMOCHAO I KNOW HOW TO USE A JUMP PAD

>>223444
There is a lot we don't know. Ian had to be concise with the "everyone gets their memories back" thing to get new readers to stick around; essentially, the first five-six issues after the SGW were a hybrid series recap/series re-introduction.

Even with none of those events, Ian has a whole new history of "Sonic's World" to craft, albeit one that ties in with the games far more. And there's >>223446, at the very least.
>> No. 223452
>>223433
Psst. Some of us who suggested these terrible split article ideas are here at /co/ too.

My thinking's pretty much what Autonywork said at the bottom of >>223449 . When someone's split history starts to get big, having one article for them makes it a bit of a mess to sort through, especially when stuff like Sonic Origins comes into play giving them more backstory.
>> No. 223453
I wish Sonic had just rebooted. I hate that comics has this inability to make a clean break. The half dozen DC reboots that required mini-reboots in between them. Spider-Man's marriage. You can't have it both ways where you want to get rid of continuity but not really get rid of it.

No more half measures, Walter.
>> No. 223454
>>223453
A full reboot would've caused a much bigger uproar than this did.

>Spider-Man's marriage
Bad for a lot more than just being a half-reboot.
>> No. 223455
>>223454
Same anon. Meant the One More Day part here, not the marriage itself even though I made it sound like that.
>> No. 223456
>>223454
No, it wouldn't have. The exact same people making noise about hating it would still have hated it. There aren't fans liking the current direction only because the old stories that will never have resolution technically still happened.
>> No. 223458
>>223454
Agreed, because
>>223453
> make a clean break
will never be defined within the community in a way that would even make the bare majority happy. Where would such a break occur? When Sally gets de-roboticized? When Knuckles gets the rest of the Echidnas back? (Speaking of, I hope we haven't completely lost Thrash, I thought he was a good character.) When Eggman is taken down for good? When Naugus perishes or pulls a Mogul? Hey, what about Mogul, are most people happy with him just running a Casino for a few decades while he waits for Sonic to die? What about Snively and Regina?

There were so many open plot lines (and potential plot lines) within the series pre-Wave that, even tackling each line one per issue, it would have taken a year to bring "closure" and then people would still be pissed because whatever plot they were the most interested in would basically be washed over. Or you tackle some but not others, making some people less mad but others more mad. And during all of this you have the Pendering hanging over you.

I don't like sudden world re-writes, either, but there was so much pressure--internal and external--going on at Archie that it had to happen. Unless something like this is planned years in advance, there's no way to make a clean break.

(Speaking of loose threads, did Ian ever answer those questions about where plot lines would have gone had he been able to see them through? I assume it's on BK; anyone have a link to the thread?)
>> No. 223460
>>223444
That is the biggest obvious doomsaying leap of logic I've seen on the reboot, and that's accounting for "why is Sonic named after his planet."
>> No. 223462
>>223456
>The exact same people making noise about hating it would still have hated it.
Which is exactly why it would've been worse: Those people would've hated it, plus more people. There've been more than a few out there saying they're glad it wasn't a full reboot.


>>223458
>Speaking of, I hope we haven't completely lost Thrash, I thought he was a good character.
Ian said on Twitter not long ago that he's working out what to do with Thrash's backstory.


>Speaking of loose threads, did Ian ever answer those questions about where plot lines would have gone had he been able to see them through?
He said it's going to take a while to finish that. His guess was it might be out in the summer.
>> No. 223463
>>223460
>why is Sonic named after his planet
my sides

>>223462
Thanks
>> No. 223465
>>223458
What are you going on about? A clean break is defined. It was 252...or it could have been. And an ending isn't some undefinable thing that requires a year and every single plot thread to be wrapped up. They could have sent the old stuff off in an issue. Or a panel. Or just ignored it like they ultimately did. It didn't matter anymore. They had to move on.

>>223462
>Those people would've hated it, plus more people.
You don't know that anymore than I can claim a full reboot would've brought in even more new readers.
>> No. 223466
>>223465
>You don't know that anymore than I can claim a full reboot would've brought in even more new readers.
...I just said that there've been people saying they're glad it wasn't a full reboot. It doesn't get much more clear-cut than that.
>> No. 223467
>>223466
And some people wish it had been a full reboot. It all evens out!
>> No. 223468
>>223467
Fair enough.
>> No. 223471
>>223452
>Psst. Some of us who suggested these terrible split article ideas are here at /co/ too.
You say that like I should be nicer just because people can see what I say. I'm not talking down about the idea of splitting some things, I'm more than fine with that. It makes sense. I'm talking down about absolutely idiotic ideas like having a "Prime Sonic" and a "Nu Sonic" article. We can just as easily make the "history" section its own page(s) and keep the main article neutral.

That said...I'm not sure if any of the characters that have changed enough to warrant a second article are actually relevant enough to deserve one. I mean, look at Muttski. He wasn't really anything before, and Nicole doesn't exactly have a separate article for her handheld incarnation...

Maybe something like a category for things (events, places) that fall just in the "Prime" canon and one for things in current canon could help somehow?
>> No. 223472
>>223447
If you think the events of the entire previous timeline is just one shitty, awful thing, then a respectfully disagree.

>>223460
Whatever dude, but with every new issue it's appearing more and more like this timeline's Freedom Fighters are just some random group of mercs Sonic hangs out with while his not on a real adventure.

Hell, with Freedom HQ gone they don't even appear to have had a base of operations until Tails and Rotor just built the Skypatrol. What are the implications of that huh? Did they just form the group last week? Have the new Freedom Fighters been conducting all of their affairs in Sonic's kitchen?
Everything in this new timeline has been pointing to what I'm talking about.

This "doomsaying" crap reeks awfully familiar of the dismissive bull people said when people were concerned there was gonna be a reboot.
>> No. 223473
>>223472
I never said everything. I said "certain." You know, like how you specified Sally getting Roboticized or the events of Endgame (and given how utterly nonsensical Endgame was, can you really say a story is worse off not having to deal with that kind of bullshit in its past?).

>Hell, with Freedom HQ gone they don't even appear to have had a base of operations until Tails and Rotor just built the Skypatrol. What are the implications of that huh? Did they just form the group last week? Have the new Freedom Fighters been conducting all of their affairs in Sonic's kitchen?


There are no "implications." In the past they didn't really HAVE a dedicated base of operations until 160 issues in. By your logic, there was no "Freedom Fighters" before that because they were just operating out of their homes (Knothole and Motobropolis). Both of those places exist currently, so unless you think there's no reason they couldn't have been AGAIN operating out of Knothole or Mobotropolis before deciding to build a mobile base of operations, your argument is pretty much null.
>> No. 223474
>>223472
>Whatever dude, but with every new issue it's appearing more and more like this timeline's Freedom Fighters are just some random group of mercs Sonic hangs out with while his not on a real adventure.
That is completely 100% in your head. I say that with no predictions of the future, with no illusions of "the book will become everything you want." Unless you think that the history was literally erased to "nothing has ever happened except the games and they weren't part of it" and that they needed 250 issues to become friends, then your claim is absolute bullshit.

Because it's bullshit.
>> No. 223475
>>223472
>If you think the events of the entire previous timeline is just one shitty, awful thing, then a respectfully disagree.
I'm pretty sure they meant "Robotnik doesn't die =/= Sonic doesn't fight the French Frirus".

>Sonic and friends act like they just met up
Except for that whole part where they've been a group so long that Ant and Bun hooked up and got married. And the part where they're all very familiar with each other.

We're back at an "issue 1" state where it's implicit that they've had plenty of previous adventures but they haven't been shown to us because...well, how the hell are you going to do that without interrupting the current story?
>> No. 223477
>>223471
>"You say that like I should be nicer just because people can see what I say."
Nah, just saying I could see you over here too, since it sounded like you thought signing up was the only way to tell us you thought it was terrible. Though seeing it put like that made me laugh a bit. Nothing against you, just amused me.

Anyway, Luger wanted to split the FFs articles into two in the first place, and he's in charge of the wiki. I don't have a problem with splitting them, but I didn't like his suggestion to leave the Prime ones as the main articles and put the Nu ones as side articles when they're the main story now. That's just...what. So I suggested making the Nu one the main and making Prime its own thing instead.

But I get your point, though, and I actually kind of agree. Just moving history to its own page(s) while leaving the main article neutral would probably solve it all a lot easier for the long pages without even having to do anything to short ones like Muttski's page.

I'll post it over in the topic, see what everyone else thinks.


>>223475
>"Sonic doesn't fight the French Frirus"
You mean you didn't like seeing the Freedom Fighters beat up a French stereotype with crowbars while dressed as old women?
>> No. 223478
>>223473
Dude, what are you talking about? Claiming the old limestone cavern as their base was one of the first things they did after forming the Freedom Fighters, canonically. It was refurnished in 160 after a period of disuse, after Sonic had been in space for a year and shit, but Freedom HQ existed from the very first issue of the comic.

>>223474
>"nothing has ever happened except the games and they weren't part of it" and that they needed 250 issues to become friends, then your claim is absolute bullshit.

I am saying that is what has appeared to happened.

It appears there is scant few events from the previous timeline has happened. Maybe... 90%+ of their history has been wiped from existence.

And they haven't had 250 issues to become friends in this new timeline. You're operating under the false assumption that for every issue of the old timeline, every comic that now had been decanonfied, a hypothetical substitute comic we just can't see depicting events and adventures we just can't know about replaced them. That wrong. They're not even working on the same time scale. We don't even know how long they've known each other, probably less than a year if the Free Comic Book day solicits are correct.

>>223475
>Sonic and friends act like they just met up
No I didn't say that. Don't misrepresent me.

>We're back at an "issue 1" state where it's implicit that they've had plenty of previous adventures but they haven't been shown to us because...well, how the hell are you going to do that without interrupting the current story?

I flat out do not believe we will ever see these mythical "adventures" that are implied to have happened. We'll see the origin story, because that's kinda important.

But we aren't gonna see Ian skipping back to the between-time of the events before Heroes yet after SA2, or whatever between-time you choose. That's just not realistic. That's not how Flynn writes, he writes linear stories. At best we can hope for is a flash back, but why would we flashback to a time period that is never going to be expanded as part of a plot?? You don't just flash back to arbitrary time periods with no plot significance.

Bah, you'll ignore how unrealistic this is because it's a technically that suits your argument. Technically Ian COULD go back and expand on the between-time between games. Technically he COULD stop the comic going forward and revisit a time period that is irrelevant to the SEGA games plot. He won't though. Hell, we'll be lucky if he chooses to revisit and adapt the actual games, let alone the between time.
>> No. 223479
>>223478
>I flat out do not believe we will ever see these mythical "adventures" that are implied to have happened.

We don't need to. We're not saying we're getting their entire history up from when they first met until just now. We're saying we don't need that shit to assume they're friends, just like we didn't need that shit in issue 1 or at whatever issue a person picked up the story without reading every single back issue. You're assuming that because we didn't see literally everything that's happened to them, nothing must have happened. And you're assuming this because some very specific events aren't canon. It's amazing the lengths you're going to here to make yourself angry.
>> No. 223480
>>223478
>And they haven't had 250 issues to become friends in this new timeline. You're operating under the false assumption that for every issue of the old timeline, every comic that now had been decanonfied, a hypothetical substitute comic we just can't see depicting events and adventures we just can't know about replaced them. That wrong. They're not even working on the same time scale. We don't even know how long they've known each other, probably less than a year if the Free Comic Book day solicits are correct.

Back in #0, they didn't have 250 issues to become friends either, but aside from the ones who hadn't even appeared yet, they were already friends. At the time, we didn't even know how long they'd known each other then, too.

Like Penguin God said, we don't need to see every moment that happened in between them meeting and the present. We barely saw anything from the nearly ten years from Sonic Kids to #0.
>> No. 223482
>>223479
>you're assuming this because some very specific events aren't canon
You mean 90% of the old timeline. No need for vague allusions.

>We don't need to
>You're assuming that because we didn't see literally everything that's happened to them, nothing must have happened.

I don't think we "need" to see their past adventures. But I think it's pretty cheap and lame to invent a new history with Sonic for characters who have no other franchise presence than a non-canon cartoon and just say it was full of all these epic adventures that will never get expanded on. You know inventing off-screen histories that make OCs best friends with protagonists is a core trait of fanfictions.

If this is how it's gonna be it would frankly have been better to just begin anew, have Countdown to Chaos be about Sonic meeting the FF for the first time rather than dooming us to a future of
Sonic: Hey Sal, remember that time we beat Eggman offscreen together
Sally: Yeah, we have so much history that the audience will never know about
>> No. 223484
>>223482
>But I think it's pretty cheap and lame to invent a new history with Sonic for characters who have no other franchise presence than a non-canon cartoon and just say it was full of all these epic adventures that will never get expanded on. You know inventing off-screen histories that make OCs best friends with protagonists is a core trait of fanfictions.

And back at the start of the series, in both the comic and SatAM, they beat Robotnik quite a bit offscreen in adventures the audience never saw. We knew they'd been fighting him for years, but we never saw most of the pre-#0 adventures. They were just already friends with the protagonist for years to begin with.
>> No. 223485
>>223480
>Back in #0, they didn't have 250 issues to become friends either,
Yeah and back at #0 Sonic also didn't already have a huge history of canon adventures with heaps of other friends.

They had a sensible reason to be together, a specific plot to get back their kingdom. Which is kind of different from Sonic and the Freedom Fighters just forming the Skypatrol to police Sonic's World until time ends or people stop doing bad things.

>We barely saw anything from the nearly ten years from Sonic Kids to #0.
Well that's irrelevant, because what we did see was almost 250 issues of them building together a meaningful history.
It's a kick in the teeth to suggest 250 issues of history is equivalent to being the inbetweeners of the new game verse archie.
>> No. 223487
>>223484
Satam isn't canon. And the beginning of the old comic is not an equivalent situation, for reasons I point out here >>223485, sonic didn't have a deep canon history at that point, and because it was fundamentally not the same type of story. It was a funnybook, looney tunes, it didn't care about continuity. Unlike the modern book which is continuity driven and relies on a good plot, not funny jokes.
>> No. 223488
>>223485
>They had a sensible reason to be together, a specific plot to get back their kingdom.
And now their reason to be together is to take down Eggman, who still seems to have tricked the King in the past. It's a (slightly) different reason to be together, but it's still a sensible one. It looks like Origins is going to expand on it further.

>Well that's irrelevant, because what we did see was almost 250 issues of them building together a meaningful history.
How is it irrelevant? The 250 issues followed issue #0. The series didn't start with 250 issues of continuity. It started with "Sonic and his friends fight Robotnik, and have been fighting him for a while." That's where we are now as well.


>>223487
>Satam isn't canon.
Never said it was. I said that in both SatAM in the comic, they started off having already been fighting Eggman offscreen for a while, which is what you're complaining about the current comic having.

>sonic didn't have a deep canon history at that point, and because it was fundamentally not the same type of story. It was a funnybook, looney tunes, it didn't care about continuity. Unlike the modern book which is continuity driven and relies on a good plot, not funny jokes.
So? That's still what the first 250 issues of the comic were started up on. That's where the comic had its origin.
>> No. 223491
>>223488
You're conflating issues here. They're related issues, but not homogenous.

The (A) "Narrative would be better served if Sonic was just meeting the FF for the first time instead of inventing a phony history"

is separate from the (B) "It's a kick in the teeth to call the offscreen, inbetweener history of the FF in the new timeline as anyway equivalent to the 250 issues of real history the old timeline built up"

The first issue is about writing quality. The second is about characters getting the shaft and history being rubbished.

>And now their reason to be together is to take down Eggman, who still seems to have tricked the King in the past. It's a (slightly) different reason to be together, but it's still a sensible one. It looks like Origins is going to expand on it further.

No, it's not really. It conflicts with Sonic's personality, his carefree nature as depicted in the games.
He's not supposed to be the police or justice league. He's just supposed to be cool dude who reacts to Eggmans schemes.

It made sense in the old timeline for him to stick with the Freedom Fighters because he had history with them, and he started his FF career for a specific purpose with them unlike the generic "hunt down Eggman forever". It actually kind of strained belief that he continued with them forever, and was a common criticism of the old comic that Sonic was too involved in the FF, but it at least had a reasonable foundation for why it was that way. Not anymore. Not now that they're the guys Sonic hangs out with when he's not on a real adventure.

>How is it irrelevant?
Because you're conflating the issues, treating an issue about (B) as a pure writing quality problem, when it's about meaningfulness to the narrative.
It's completely irrelevant that we missed a few unimportant years of Sonic and friends growing up in the old timeline compared to the total gap in history that the new timeline creates. You're ignoring the total disparity that is nearly 250 issues of history and canon built up over time being traded-off for offscreen inbetweener antics, because you're so focused in on insignificant time skip and how you incorrectly believe it equates to problem (A).

>I said that in both SatAM in the comic, they started off having already been fighting Eggman offscreen for a while, which is what you're complaining about the current comic having.
>So?
So it's simply not a equivalent situation, for reasons I've already listed. Comparing the start of Archie Sonic to the beginning of 252 is like comparing apples to oranges, they're not even the same genera.
Classic Archie could "get away" with inventing a history for these characters before because they were working on what was essentially a blank slate (Yeah we all know Classic Sonic had a deeper lore in the games manual lets not get into THAT argument).
Not so anymore. Sonic has a huge canon backlog, used in the comic. He has an established cast of friends with defined roles. A well defined history.

And Classic Sonic, as a comedy, was not based on plot, which is important because it's plot was subservient to jokes, people didn't buy the comic expecting a compelling or even coherent story, they expected action and funny. The characters were simply stereotypes meant to fill roles.

Not so for Modern Sonic, this is a comic probably the most continuity based thing in the whole Sonic franchise at the moment. It depends on a compelling plot and interesting characters. Modern Sonic is held to a higher standard.

This is too much fucking writing.
>> No. 223492
File 139245592636.png - (127.91KB , 220x216 , you kidding me bro.png )
223492
Oh my god! You fucking cares? Do we really need to know every facet of their history to enjoy the new stories? If there's any new background we need to care about it'll be explained and then we can move on.
>> No. 223493
>>223492
I'm sorry we can't all be as cool and aloof as you bro, some people just care about what they like.
>> No. 223498
New Thread
>>223495
>> No. 223500
>>223400
Wasn't me.
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